<p>sv3a, maybe the Commonwealth would be best served by having one flagship institution of truly international stature.</p>
<p>If you want that, then decrease the number of regular acceptances you take, increase the number of transfers, forget affirmative action, and spend a lot of money on scientific research and graduate programs. UVa has never really been about any of that for awhile.</p>
<p>sv3a, over the years I have come to the sad conclusion that you are right.</p>
<p>Although I'm not particularly alarmed by the CC deal in Va myself and really can't understand why it would be a dealbreaker for someone to go to a Va college, I can see why some feel it's unfair. But if you read through this thread, some of the stuff being said was IMO extremely misguided and I couldn't help myself. </p>
<p>Perhaps more stringent standards for automatic admission would make sense. However, I do like the idea that the commonwealth has with making these opportunities available to people. Now I can agree with more stringent admissions, etc, but it is nice to see that people can make the CC choice without being penalized if they can't afford or manage one of the Va universities. Besides, I'm really not going to play the "this person went to VT and so automatically did better than the person here." It's impossible to know that not seeing all the courses and the person's preparation and resources. Is VCU "harder" than Radford? Some people say William and Mary is "harder" than UVa. I imagine that at all these places there are students really challenging themselves and students just floating. It's not like this deal is only available to some people unfairly (anyone COULD choose to go to CC). However that would probably force them to confront their stereotypes about CC students. I mean, I know people who sneer at others who could "only" get into VTech. This attitude is all very misguided.</p>
<p>sv3a - Currently it does not apply, but in previous posts on this thread there was a quote from Dean Roberts. He said that the E-school is next on transfer agreements, so that was why I used it as an example. Also, it was an easy example to point out that although transfers from other engineering schools may have lower GPAs, most VCCS schools do not have an actualy engineering program, but instead, they take the basic classes. However, at the engineering schools, they have engineering classes, more rigerous pre-req classes, and thus they will most likely be more prepared when transferring into the E-school. That is why i highly object the E-school, or even the art/nursing/artitechture schools, being placed under this agreement. Even if they set higher GPA standards, its still almost impossible to get the same type of education from a CC than from a dedicated 4-yr program. Also, there were numbers posted from earlier threads that indicate a drop in GPAs in transfers from CC to UVa (look at SuperNova's post on page 5...there's no sense in repeating a bunch of numbers). Since the University-wide GPA is around a 3.2, the CCers are obviously performing at a lower level. And the point was not about CC transfers vs students enrolled in their first years. My point was that transfer students from specialized programs in 4-yr schools are more likely to maintain their GPA than a CC transfer. Maybe not in basic subjects like english, history, ect, but definently in art/engineering/other specialized subjects.</p>
<p>Princedog- I support the state helping CC students. Some in the VCCS system simply couldn't afford college, and I support universities like UVa who try to help those (UVAccess) without the financial abilities to attend college. What I don't support is students who slack off during high school, pull a 3.4, and automatically go to UVa/W&M/VT. I'm sure students don't sit in their high school classes and think "hmm, i don't have to do this work, I can just go to VCCS, get a 3.4, and I'm in!! Party time!". But, its an easy way out for students to say "Well, I did mediocore during high school, and VCCS is pretty easy and straight forward, so I'll graduate from UVa and do fine".<br>
As far as courses go, yes its hard to say some schools are harder than others. Especially in basic programs such as those included in CAS. My argument here is more against specialized majors such as art, engineering, ect. All of those programs UVa is in the process of setting up agreements with VCCS. And I don't think that you can seriously argue that a transfer from somewhere like VT is less qualified than a VCCS transfer, even if their GPA is lower. I'm not saying a 2.8 at VT is superior to a 3.4 from VCCS, but most who transfer have above a 3.0, so even a 3.6 from VCCS isn't the same. But that GPA does not reflect the type, or rigors, of the education that transfer student has recieved thus far.<br>
My argument about some schools being better than a VCCS does not apply to every school, or every applicant. Not even close. My argument is centered around the possibility that they'll open up the agreement to all schools, with different criterion. And that will only hurt those schools. Take for example the engineering school (sorry to be biased about it, but I know a vast amount of info regarding e-school transfers since I am an applicant, and a engineering student at VT...again, why i'm using these two ideas side by side). They are limited to approx. 40 spots to fill each year. Easily, VCCS transfers could fill those 40 spots. What about a transfer from VT with the same GPA, or better? Are those VCCS students seriously more qualified? It's hard to say they all arn't as qualified, but lets get real. Furthermore, engineering schools try to admit more minorities (women in particular, but also ethnic minorities) simply because they are HIGHLY unrepresented and engineering has been typically closed to these groups. With this agreement, it could essentially get rid of the opportunity for the schools to take in diverse applicants.
My statements do not apply to all transfers, all schools, and all VCCS schools/students. Its just obvious that this whole transfer agreement plan is very flawed. I think they could get extra consideration to VCCS transfers into the CAS, but I do not think it should be automatic. I also do not think that they should expand the agreement to the other schools.</p>
<p>while part of the agreement for the Charter (they changed this name to something else, right?) schools was an increased number of transfer students from VCCS, did it leave full freedom to the individual schools to decide the requirements for guaranteed acceptances?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Not surprisingly, the greatest drops in GPA were at the public institutions with the more selective admissions policies—the College of William and Mary, Mary Washington College, the University of Virginia, Virginia Tech, and James Madison University. The VCCS grade point average of students transferring to these institutions was over a 3.00, but students experienced drops in GPAs ranging from –1.02 at the College of William and Mary to a drop of -0.26 at James Madison University.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>wow</p>
<p>Elgordo, a couple hundred transfer students (split between two classes, I should add) have been arriving at UVA each year for years now. The articulation agreements are supposed to increase their numbers, but when an incoming class is around 3100 students, transfers will still be a minority population at UVA.</p>
<p>I blogged</a> in response to one alum's paniced (and borderline ignorant) letter to the Cav Daily about this back in April.</p>
<p>Soccerguy, the agreements can be changed every year. </p>
<p>Princedog, you have some very nice comments above.</p>
<p>I obviously agree with a few points from each side of this issue.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the goals of the Commonwealth don't always line up with everyone else's goals. </p>
<p>Remember that there are plenty of alumni in the administration and in the legislature. There are many members of the University community involved in the development of these policies.</p>
<p>Dean J,</p>
<p>Having read your posts and your blog, I understand where you are coming from and what the objective seems to be. However, for many of us in the UVA community (students, parents, alums, faculty) who would like to see the University placed in the same league academically (and prestige-wise whether we care to admit it or not) with America’s top colleges, this CC transfer policy is hard to swallow. Can you imagine such a system being in place at Duke where they were expected to take all NC CC students who have a 3.4? Or how about such a system at Cornell for all NY CC students? Or how about at Northwestern or UChicago for all Illinois CC students? WashU and Missouri? Granted, these are all private institutions and thus in a different category with regards to their institutional mission statement. Nonetheless, the University makes noises that it wants to be considered among the top 15 schools in America, but in practice, it is hard to imagine any of the top 15 implementing such a policy and not being penalized in the minds of students, parents, alumni, faculty, etc. at each of these schools. To think that such a policy does not have reputational repercussions is naive. Most of us believe that UVA can achieve its rankings aspirations, but the community college concession to the General Assembly is not going to help us get there.</p>
<p>I agree with dajada 110%. There is a way to help CCers, but the guarenteed admission deal is not the way. Especially if you expand it to other schools. Maybe give preference to them as junior transfers, but in a sense, then that would skew admissions. Either the rest of the juniors might be OOS, or the 1/3 OOS will have to come through the soph class, and that is unfair to IS transfers from 4-years. There could come a point where the entire transfer junior class is comprised of CC transfers with 3.4s. Is that fair to someone from W&M or VT or another IS student that went to a 4-yr university, who got a 3.6? </p>
<p>Dean J - I understand CCers are a vital and important contribution to UVa. I just do not agree with letting anyone in. Maybe they should require a minimum high school GPA also. But the GA does not realize that they are about to bring UVa down, because although CCers are not the bottem of the pile, there is no way to know if there could be better entering the university. It seems like the GA just wants their taxpayers' sons/daughters in their universities, and thats fine. I think its a smart move, and i'm glad im lucky enough to be in VA to take advantage of that. But then maybe we should simply set up a quota for IS vs OOS, and compile all IS transfers together and compare them amongst themselves. To encourage CCers, give those 3.4+ students priority. Or don't expand beyond CAS and set up a quota for CCers. But 60% of transfers being CCers is WAY overboard. That's all of the transfer spots for IS students basically! So unless the University/GA wants to agree to only accept IS transfers, or raise that rate to 90/10, the 60% CC transfers is ludicris. And when they realize they can't fill that 60%, they'll probably only lower the standards, and that will do wonders for UVa. But SuperNova was right, this is simply an economic move for the GA to save money. I hate to harp on you Dean J, and I definently DO NOT mean to do so. Its just that you're the only university rep on here, and you know more of the inner workings, so its easier to direct things to the University through you =P I support CCers trying to turn around their lives. I just don't support the fact that I've worked hard all 4 years of high school, and then I couldn't even make the numbers for UVa, and I attended a challenging univeristy, and I won't get the same options as a CCer who might have done poorly in HS due to laziness/personal issues/ect, goes to a CC and does marginally well, and automatically gets in. The system needs adjustments, and they need to happen soon before UVa/VT/W&M get stuck in a bad posistion.</p>
<p>dajada and shoebox:</p>
<p>I understand your objections and your points. I'm not sure I can agree, however, that letting in CC transfers in their junior years is going to have much effect on UVA's reputation one way or the other. It's a fairly small percentage of the total student body. One could just as easily say that letting in athletes who meet minimal NCAA standards hurts a school's reputation. This does not seem to be the case at Berkeley, judging by the US News peer assessment scores.</p>
<p>Tarhunt - Currently, it does not seem to pose much of a problem. As Dean J pointed out, there are already many CC transfers entering both soph/junior year. However, they project to have 60% of transfers be CC transfers. Although it seems like that number may never be reached, they may lower standards even further. And previous posts have numbers to prove that GPAs of CC transfers drop once they enter a 4-yr, whereas a 4-yr transfer would be less likely to have that issue. I just think that it may lead to a drop in the overall GPA when the percentage of CC transfers increases.<br>
Also, its hard to say that all athlete recruits are going to have a negative impact, just like its hard to say CCers will. But 60% is a large enough percentage to have a difference.</p>
<p>The automatic admissions policy is appalling for recruitment of top students. Lots of the very best students will hear of this policy and just pass UVa over for Duke, Rice, JHU, etc.</p>
<p>elgordo - thats really hard to say. As a transfer myself, i'm still applying to UVa, and for many good reasons. UVa has so many characteristics about it that are positive that I doubt this will make or break anyones decision. Frankly, I bet a lot of applicants don't even know about it. Its just extremely unfair to other transfer applicants who were just shy of making it into UVa as first years, decided to attend another 4-yr college, do well at that college, and then not be able to transfer in. Currently, I doubt enough CC transfers will use the agreement this year, however, their forcast of 60% of transfers being from VCCS is appalling. It simply does not bring the best into the University, but instead, it brings in numbers for the GA. But I doubt it will discourage first years, and I doubt it will discourage transfers from atleast applying for years.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The automatic admissions policy is appalling for recruitment of top students. Lots of the very best students will hear of this policy and just pass UVa over for Duke, Rice, JHU, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, I think that's pretty sad. I have never ever heard anyone say this. Perhaps OOS students but this is a state school and it is drawing great students from Va. My friend applied ED and was accepted, she is the best student I know, extremely conscientious and responsible. As a regular public school, no one really gets into "top" schools, it's just too much of a reach usually, but the top students every year consistently choose UVa and beyond happy if they get accepted. </p>
<p>I'm not considered a bad student myself and I anxiously await my UVa decision. Most likely I will attend in the fall (proudly). Actually I experience the opposite of what you say. Like I said, perhaps things need to be re-examined, but I am more or less in favor of this, and it does make me want to support Va schools. Va is educating its citizens, and frankly, we're not doing so bad. Many people would kill to have the high school and university options we have all in state for reasonable prices or free in the case of high school. Pass up Va for Duke? JUST because CC students can get into Va schools without being penalized. Um. I would go to Duke if I had a compelling reason, but for thousands and thousands more in order to avoid something that would in all likelihood barely affect me? No. </p>
<p>UVa is still an in state school and likely will remain that way for some time, whether some people (a lot of whom are OOS I imagine) like it or not.</p>
<p>Princedog - I think you would care a bit more if you were a transfer. But all the same, I hope you get it. And I hope I see you there =P</p>
<p>
[Quote]
The automatic admissions policy is appalling for recruitment of top students. Lots of the very best students will hear of this policy and just pass UVa over for Duke, Rice, JHU, etc.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They won't even need to hear of this policy. They'll only have to observe UVA's continued slide in the rankings. </p>
<p>And that, you can be sure, will attract their attention.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Princedog - I think you would care a bit more if you were a transfer. But all the same, I hope you get it. And I hope I see you there =P
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Maybe. I hope you get in too. But obviously you are still choosing to stay in the Va education system, despite this. It's not really something IMO that is ruining our system or "driving the best students away" because that is so far from my experience. I don't care about the rankings either, although I don't think UVa is doing too bad in them considering they seem to favor private schools. UVa's name is still good. The top students from my school this year continued to apply to UVa with hopes of getting in, and greater hopes of the honor of Echols, and last year the top students went as well. In fact the student last year with the most potential IMO (had done great things in HS) applied ED.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Its just that you're the only university rep on here
[/QUOTE]
I have to admit that I don't have time to read all of this thread. Your frustration is a bit misplaced. The Office of Admission did not come up with this initiative. I understand that those who don't fully understand the issue will fixate on us.</p>
<p>There's a reason I've been sharing links to information about Virginia politics.</p>
<p>Princedog - I'm chosing to stay in the VA education system for many reasons. First, I've already seen this type of stuff go on. In Fairfax County Public Schools, preference is given to all sorts of students, from learning disabled students to the super smart students. I still turned out A-OK. Secondly, I'm applying to transfer to the E-school, which isnt under the agreement yet. And honestly, I doubt the E-school will ever get a heavily increased number from CCs (Dean J - are there a lot of E-school transfers from CCs?). And lastly, lets take a step back and look at UVa. We've all been bashing it left and right, but in the end, its still UVa. Still in the top 25 schools of the US. Still world-reknown. And it's instate tuition and 2 hours from home for me =) Damn, I can't think of a better reason to not apply other than the academics are not only top-notch, but the E-school curriculum fits me perfectly. I want a liberal-arts education on top of my engineering degree, and UVa makes that happen. I love C'ville, I love the campus, and frankly, I'm going to be heartbroken if I dont get in, because there's no question in my mind that I wouldn't attend. Top notch students will still apply there, and UVa will still be known in VA as "THE school to attend". I just think that the agreement is unfair to other transfers who have worked their butt off to get in.</p>
<p>Dean J - Yes, I understand that the Admissions Office did not create this plan. Thats why I hate the fact that you're the only university rep on here, because it seems very unfair to harp on your about this. But I think I speak for everyone when I say we're glad that someone form UVa can let us see everything from the inside. =)</p>