Sufficient Challenge?

<p>My S is interested in studying Computer Science with an emphasis on Game Design.</p>

<p>He's a very academically strong student (top 2% of his class, 35 ACT, NMSF, challenging coursework etc.) </p>

<p>He's applying to (or has applied to): MIT, CMU SCS, RPI, Drexel, Northeastern, RIT & WPI
Drexel should be both an admission and financial safety based on an expectation of good merit aid (full tuition for NM finalists). We're also hoping for decent merit aid at RPI, RIT, Northeastern and WPI. MIT and CMU are reaches both admissions-wise and financially unless he gets a surprisingly good offer, though we could probably make them work unless we get a surprising bad need-based assessment. (Yes, we've used the estimators, but our financial situation is semi-hard to predict due to volatile self-employment income.)</p>

<p>In theory, I like the idea of going to a slightly lower tier school for undergrad studies with a nice merit scholarship, versus paying $$$$$ for somewhere like MIT. But I do want him to have a stimulating college experience.</p>

<p>So... the question is, at the schools which would be academic/admission safeties, would he be challenged enough? I don't want him to be at the top of all his classes and have the lessons more too slowly for him, and I want him to experience being in classes with plenty of other kids as smart or smarter than him. Would the honors colleges at the latter 4 schools be enough to ensure sufficient challenge?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>IMHO,
if your S has the goods to be at MIT, CMU or RPI he probably would not be as happy at Drexel, Northeastern, RIT & WPI. Look over the curriculum for CS at these schools and you can also see strong differences. Game design is also very strong at Cornell.</p>

<p>RPI has a great game design program and it’s a top 20 school and much different from the remaining four on your list - these having a broader student base that is less competitive. RPI not always a safety-- last year’s results were quite interesting judging by the CC.</p>

<p>CMU has an ‘extenuating circumstances’ form and does actually adjust aid if there’s been a change in family income. Yes, self employment is volatile-- and if your income has enormous swings in 2011, they will adjust your package. They will also aim to adjust a package from a competitor-- MIT and RPI included.</p>

<p>PM me if you want to talk more about SCS at CMU or financial aid at CMU.</p>

<p>If he does get into both CMU and RPI be sure to let CMU know if RPI is offering a better package. I was able to swing enough extra aid money from CMU after doing that to attend there instead of RPI.</p>

<p>You’ll have to excuse me, but I don’t recognize which college is SCS. </p>

<p>As far as the rest of the colleges you have listed, they should present a good challenge given you adapt your class schedule to push yourself. Just wait and see where he is accepted (and what the $$ is) and have fun choosing.</p>

<p>A word of some caution, however. Several of my son’s friends were also interested in computer science with an emphasis on game design. They all changed majors but one. They found out that game design, like a lot of computer programming, is very detail work and some find it tedious. So, don’t be surprised if he, too, gets interested in something else. Many high school kids have no real idea what the various flovors of engineering programs there are and what they really do.</p>

<p>^SCS is the School of Computer Science at Carnege Mellon. I can’t help with financial aid questions, but can with questions about SCS. I can tell you that at least for my son, if he had needed aid he would be in good position to pay it back. He’s had very well paid internships every summer and already has a permanent job offer for next year where he’ll be getting a bigger yearly salary than I have ever made. My son decided in high school after taking a graphics course at Columbia that game design wasn’t for him - but you never know - obviously it appeals to some. My younger brother used to do lots of game design, but his current company does website and database work mostly.</p>

<p>Computer science is a very competitive field. The competition is not simply domestic but international. The program and the university where your S attends will make a huge difference when it comes time for him to apply for a job.</p>

<p>In practice the companies with the most interesting and best job opportunities (think Silicon Valley, Boston Route 128, Washington Beltway, etc.) focus on a small number of universities for their college hiring. It’s wise to be a student in one of those universities.</p>

<p>Moreover the depth of the coursework depends a great deal on the professors and how deeply engaged they are with industry and current innovation. Peers matter a great deal into CS , because many projects are structured as team efforts.</p>

<p>You did not include your state’s flagship on your list. Several of these (University of Illinois Urbana, University of Wisconsin Madison, University of Texas Austin, Purdue, UC Berkeley, and 6-10 others) have superb CS programs, and faculty who are very much wired with external high technology projects. The very best high technology companies recruit at these universities.</p>

<p>Of the universities on your list MIT and CMU provide superior programs. I would encourage you to re-examine your list, drop the secondary schools such as Drexel, and replace them with stronger schools (which may include your state’s flagship).</p>

<p>My knowledge is limited. S considered CMU’s program. While we are not eligible for aid, he was told that he could have a MS in 4 years. Caltech (you never included Caltech or Stanford in your list, though both have gaming) offered merit scholarship for junior and senior years. Between CMU, MIT, and Caltech, the latter was the most affordable. I would add Stanford (as it is so strong in CS/gaming). I think your son would flourish in any of these communities.</p>

<p>Since you are applying for aid, you may just have to wait to see what happens. Since these schools so well-respected in CS, you could try bargaining. </p>

<p>I wish I knew more about RPI and WPI. I’ve heard good things, but never visited. Son has spent time on campuses of the other colleges, and is currently a grad student at MIT. He always felt that he would have been happy at various colleges, and never had a dream school. His former roommate is in gaming, and chose Stanford to best meet his wants. Another rm/mt is at CMU.</p>

<p>Best of luck to your talented son.</p>

<p>I also would echo Fogcity and Mathmom–, top companies doing the most innovative CS projects are fairly exclusive about where they recruit.
You’ll see this on their websites rather openly.
Drexel, WPI and RIT just aren’t on those lists. Not meant to sound elitist just stating the facts.</p>

<p>If employment and a top education are key factors, CMU, MIT, Stanford are all tied for # 1 – no comparison with others on the list.</p>

<p>Stanford and Caltech are super=reach even for the most competitive students. If you need another “match”, try Cornell or Michigan. I agree, take Drexel off your list. Boston U gives great merit aid as well to top students but again, not in the same league.</p>

<p>If worried about admissions possibility at CMU- SCS, consider “back-door” application- apply also to Information Systems as a second choice and emphasize in the essay the interest in game design/human interaction classes with strong emphasis on CS classes.</p>

<p>Our state flagship is the University of Vermont. As far as I know, it does not have a particularly strong CS program. (Also in terms of feel, my S definitely prefers the geeky/techy schools, which UVM certainly isn’t)</p>

<p>My S prefers to stay relatively close to home, which is why Caltech and Stanford aren’t on his list, though he would probably consider adding them.</p>

<p>I’m surprised at the opinions that he would have trouble getting a good job out of Drexel or RIT, considering the head start that the co-op programs give. Drexel stated that Microsoft, Amazon and Google all hire co-ops from their CS program. They also did mention specific graduates who were now students at places like MIT, CMU, Waterloo, etc. So it seemed like a perfectly good place to get either a job-focused education (via co-op) or an entry into a “more prestigious” grad program. So I wasn’t worrying so much about his prospects after graduating as I was about him just being unchallenged in the core classes, etc.</p>

<p>Drexel is mainly on the list because (a) they were highly ranked in the Princeton Review ranking of Game Design programs [Top</a> 8 Undergraduate Game Design Programs](<a href=“http://www.princetonreview.com/top-eight-game-design-programs.aspx]Top”>2023 Top Game Design Schools | The Princeton Review) and (b) they offer full tuition scholarships to NMFs</p>

<p>Thanks for the feedback and I’d appreciate any additional thoughts as well.</p>

<p>also: any chance RPI would match aid from one of the lower tier schools like Drexel or Northeastern?</p>

<p>It’s funny how many HS boys think they want to do CS with some kind of focus in game design which IMO is a direct result of how much some HS boys like to play video games. This is fine but in reality a fair number of those students will either find CS not really something they want to do (once they find out it has nothing to do with playing games) and switch to another major or their eyes will be opened to the huge number of other areas in CS they can go into including developing commercial software (ex: Microsoft products), business software (ex: Oracle, Microsoft), the defense industry (UAVs, avionics, lots of other areas from a number of major companies), internet based apps (Google, many others), developing IT related software, robotics, cell phones, or thousands of other areas. As the student learns of these other areas and the reality of CS along with perhaps less personal focus on playing video games they often will move in a direction other than gaming. OTOH some will remain focused on the gaming which is fine also.</p>

<p>I’m just mentioning it because although your S is focused on CS/Gaming right now it’s possible he’ll change his mind about it within the next couple of years so it’s worth considering what other options are available at whichever colleges he’s considering. Some are narrowly focused and if one decides they’d rather do econ or become a doctor or something they might heve less of an opportunity at them.</p>

<p>Oh definitely, my S is not even 100% sure he wants CS, so a school where he would be in a more common first year (MIT) would be a bonus. He is also interested in things like materials design or new drug design. But he has done a fair bit of game development already, so he’s not <em>just</em> basing it on liking to play games. He has designed games (computer and non-computer) since he was very young. </p>

<p>I’m pretty sure my S will end up in CS, engineering or science in some facet or another. Beyond that, yes, flexibility and opportunities will be important. But he has to have somewhere to focus his initial interests and he does keep drifting back to game design.</p>

<p>Thanks for the feedback!</p>

<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad, this is exactly, exactly what my son went through. He attended CMU’s summer program in video gaming in the summer of his senior year and that helped to change his mind about wanting to major in computer design/gaming. But it still factored heavily in his list of schools. (UPenn also has an amazing program). Once he got into college, he moved away from CS altogether, and then considered Sociology, and eventually decided on Economics/Finance.</p>

<p>I should also add that I think my S probably will not be admitted to MIT. His stats are in range, but he doesn’t have anything else really exceptional to make him stand out there. I’m not sure whether CMU SCS is quite as competitive or not. I’m assuming he will get admitted to RPI, though it’s definitely more a match than a safety.</p>

<p>The fact that he may choose to move away from game design definitely has prompted me to encourage him to get a good rigorous CS background to learn about other possibilities and keep his options open. And I’d love him to be somewhere where he can easily decide to switch to a totally different program as well. There are a lot of things that he is interested in and good at.</p>

<p>It just seems that there is a big rift between the places that are likely to be affordable and the places where he can get a really top-notch CS education. I think we need to find the middle ground.</p>

<p>Is Olin on the radar - you mentioned staying close to Vermont/home?</p>

<p>Cornell? At least they are need blind and do promise to meet unmet need. See some of my posts in the CMU thread (my Cornell financial aid bashing thread). This means COA-EFC + Max loans, max works study and summer job. Student self help around $9500 is required and added to parents EFC to determine “Unmet need”-- and they do deliver. Just most of us find the EFC a sticker shock every time.</p>

<p>The CMU-SCS program has single digit acceptance numbers-- so consider applying to two schools at CMU and word the essay appropriately.
The curriculum will not have him touching game design-ish classes until after his core in CS/math classes anyways. Game Design classes are 300/400 level – long way to that point. </p>

<p>I agree-- tough to find high rated CS programs and financial aid. Tier 2+ (I made that term up) would be RPI. Everything else on your list is so far below the others.
University of Michigan (long way from vermont) gives out-of-state grants as does Maryland. Boston University? Comparable to Northeastern - -and you take math classes at Harvard or MIT in the boston course exchange. Boston has many sweet-scholarships.</p>

<p>We did check out Olin but it doesn’t offer enough flexibility for S who may want to switch into a science program, and is not really looking for engineering per se.</p>

<p>For need-based aid, we will qualify for little to nothing, depending on each school’s formula. But that doesn’t mean we can really afford to spend $50K per year on our S’s college, especially when he has 2 brothers coming up behind him (only a year or two of overlap in total, though). Like you say, the EFC is a major sticker shock. </p>

<p>He is definitely planning on applying to two schools at CMU. I’ve heard it’s reasonably easy to switch into SCS if they do well on the intro class?</p>

<p>Interesting about Boston U sharing classes with MIT and Harvard.</p>

<p>For schools that use FAFSA formula, you may have a pleasant surprise with 2 students in college. Each student is EFC/2. But… most private schools use CSS Profile, which sees to not have as much advantage for multiple students.</p>

<p>Take a look at UMD. Top-ranked CS program, merit $$, excellent job and grad school placement. Sergei Brin of Google was a math/CS undergrad there (and a lot of folks ther double major in same). They are very generous with AP and accelerated placement credit.</p>

<p>CMU SCS is very tough to get into, but is outstanding.</p>

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<p>Just as a note, I was in Materials Science & Engineering back at CMU and absolutely loved the program! My roommate of three years was in Computer Engineering, but he was very active with writing his own video games and interacting with people in the indie gaming scene before it really became popular a few years ago. It translated into a job offer with a rather well known gaming company, though he decided to take a different one using his CE background instead.</p>

<p>Also, no matter where he goes, if he’s interested in game design he should get involved in a game programming club. Most schools will have one, and they can usually put out pretty neat projects. I know at CMU they often get guys from Microsoft/Bungie and a few other companies to come and talk about games and the industry, so I’m sure you’ll find something similar elsewhere.</p>