Suggestions, Phil Dept important

Parents Forum
1

<p>Okay, as is clear to all this is my first post! I have been reading TONS of posts, but I've reached the point where forum searches aren't turning up "new" insights or direction, so I am going to go ahead and ask! ;)</p>

<p>My son is a Junior at a very small (academically rigorous) Classical Christian School which he has attended since K. I mention this because he is exceptionally mature and self-assured (in a good way) for his age, but he has never been in a large school setting. So, while he doesn't care about size, I think smaller might be better. </p>

<p>Extracurricular activities are primarily soccer (no particular interest in continuing at the college level), drama/acting (and singing), and writing (particularly fiction at this stage).</p>

<p>He wants to major in Philosophy, but also has a strong interest in Theology and Biblical Studies. So he is looking for a college with a solid to strong Philosophy Dept (ie one that will be respected if he pursues a Doctorate in Philosophy at a top school), and schools with a history of producing Rhodes' Scholars are a plus; as well as a strong Theology Dept. He has said that Biblical Hebrew (not modern) <em>must</em> be offered at any school he considers, and he's not too fond of the "self-instruction" option that some colleges offer for credit.</p>

<p>He would prefer a "truly Christian" school, but realistically I think we're looking at any college/university that isn't overtly hostile to "traditional" Christianity. I know he is especially opposed to being surrounded by a "party" atmosphere, and that is part of his preference for a Christian College/University. He also has stated that he would prefer a Protestant school (as opposed to Catholic).</p>

<p>Another major consideration is aid, both merit and need based. He is determined not to take out any loans during college, and I can safely say that the calculated family contribution will be $0! So, schools such as William & Mary, Emory, and Davidson which promise to meet all demonstrated need, if accepted, are a plus! In fact, so much so, he's willing to consider an in-state school under those circumstances (we're in VA, and he does not want to stay in state, lol).</p>

<p>As for GPA and test scores: I'm not sure what his weighted GPA is/will be, but well above 4.0 (he's received one B, ever, and the majority of his courses this year & next are AP). He took the ACT as a "dry run" - no prep whatsoever - about a year and a half ago and got a 27 (he will definitely be retaking it at least one more time!). He got a 4 on the AP Latin exam, and a 730 (or 740?) on the Latin SAT II, which he does not plan to retake as he's well into Greek now. I don't recall his 1st PSAT score (something like 2400), but he recently retook it for a shot at a Nat'l Merit Scholarship, and we haven't gotten the scores yet.I think he got a 1560 on the SATs in 8th grade, which won't show up on his score reports.</p>

<p>Let's see, anything else.....? Oh, he would love to participate in study abroad. Also, what he plans to do with a Philosophy degree: (currently) he intends to continue in Grad school and become a Philosopher and Author, and teach (so he doesn't starve). He still maintains a strong leaning toward Theology, and I wouldn't be surprised if he ultimately went in that direction.</p>

<p>As of now, our "Long Short List" is:</p>

<p>Top Choices:</p>

<p>Boston University
College of William & Mary
Emory University
Grove City College
Muhlenburg
Notre Dame
St. Olaf College
Sewanee: The University of the South
Taylor University
University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
Wheaton College (IL)
Yale University</p>

<p>Close to top:</p>

<p>Boston College
Davidson College
George Fox University
Johns Hopkins University
Macalaster
M.I.T.
University of Oklahoma
University of VA</p>

<p>Possibilities:</p>

<p>Gordon College
Juniata
Kenyon College
Loyola (IL)
NYU
University of Dallas</p>

<p>Probably nots:</p>

<p>Carroll College (MT)
Duke University
Eastern Mennonite
Houston Baptist University
Oberlin College
Princeton University
Saint Anselm College
University of Chicago
University of Dayton
Vanderbilt University
Wake Forest</p>

<p>Rejected:</p>

<p>Biola University
Northwestern College
Pepperdine
Reed College
Regent College
Washington & Lee</p>

<p>I realize this covers a huge range! But we're looking for a set of both "first choice" and "back up" possibilities at this point.... before visits begin!</p>

2

<p>On the cost standpoint, run the net price calculator on each school’s web site to get a financial aid estimate. Be aware that schools that “meet full need” generally have an expected student contribution, typically between $4,000 and $10,000 (direct loan and/or work-study may be offered to cover that).</p>

<p>Is there any particular denomination of Protestant Christianity that he prefers?</p>

<p>Notre Dame, Boston College, Loyola, University of Dallas, and University of Dayton are Catholic.</p>

<p>Sewanee has a high fraternity (67%) and sorority (71%) membership, according to [Sewanee:</a> University of the South Campus Life - CollegeData College Profile](<a href=“http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg05_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1667]Sewanee:”>http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg05_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1667) . Fraternities and sororities tend to be associated with partying and alcohol.</p>

3

<p>ucb - Thanks for the response. We are members of an Evangelical Presbyterian Church (though personally I don’t consider myself Pres, or any particular denomination for that matter) in which he has grown up. His school is Reformed Episcopal. My son isn’t terribly fond of Calvinism though… not sure where that puts one denominationally, lol.</p>

<p>I figure schools such as Boston College and Notre Dame are secular enough that being “Catholic” isn’t a major factor, but perhaps I’m wrong on that? He bumped University of Dallas from higher on the list precisely because of its Catholicism. Loyola and Dayton are both pretty far down the list as is.</p>

<p>I’ve heard conflicting info about Sewanee. Initially I was told it isn’t a religious school at all, but I’d gotten the opposite impression from others. It’d be great to find out from those who have experience with the school. But then, that’s true of all of them I imagine!</p>

<p>Which brings me to another question: I’ve been told by another parent that their children’s experiences suggest that a secular school is better than one which claims to be religious, but isn’t. Both being worse than a “truly Christian” school. Any thoughts about this eval?</p>

4

<p>"I can safely say that the calculated family contribution will be $0! " - Also check into Questbridge [QuestBridge</a> Home](<a href=“http://www.questbridge.org/]QuestBridge”>http://www.questbridge.org/)</p>

<p>There is also a CC section for it, I think.</p>

5

<p>Unless he is currently getting a free ride for his private high school & you truly are very low income, I would be hesitant to assume that schools which use financial aid forms of their own/pROFILE, will also offer him a free ride.
Schools that meet 100% of need, also tend to be need aware for admission.</p>

6

<p>Our “income” is currently <$500/month. Yeah, I’d say he’ll qualify for need based. As for his private school, they’ve been very kind and patient, and have provided much assistance over the years.</p>

<p>However, the focus at this stage is not on some unpredictable financial package, it’s just a potential factor - one of many. So, while things like “in state tuition” may ultimately determine which school he chooses to attend, they only serve to push schools between categories at this point.</p>

7

<p>ucb… again… thanks for alerting me to the Sewanee greek percentages! I’ve been looking at student reviews at various sites and it is definitely looking like it probably won’t be high on his list! ugh! I guess that shows the benefit of posting questions here, eh? lol</p>

8

<p>Check out Berea, which is Christian and also provides free tuition to all students.
[Berea</a> College - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berea_College]Berea”>Berea College - Wikipedia)
[Home</a> Page - Berea College](<a href=“http://www.berea.edu/]Home”>http://www.berea.edu/)
[Mission</a> - About Berea College](<a href=“http://www.berea.edu/about/mission/]Mission”>The Great Commitments - Berea College)</p>

9

<p>ZekeMom, with your family’s low income and your son’s good stats, you should definitely take a look at the Questbridge program. The application process can be a little grueling because of the additional essays and extended documentation required, but the payoff is great – a full ride to one of about 35 partner institutions, several of which are on your preliminary list. Read about it here [QuestBridge</a> Home](<a href=“http://www.questbridge.org/]QuestBridge”>http://www.questbridge.org/) and check out the forum here [Questbridge</a> Programs - College Confidential](<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/questbridge-programs/]Questbridge”>Questbridge Programs - College Confidential Forums).</p>

10

<p>I think for Hebrew Bible you need to consider adding University of Pennsylvania to the list. I also think Holy Cross is worth considering given his interests. As you have already figured out, the problem you are going to run into is finding the academics he wants in a comfortable social environment. There are many smaller schools that may seem to offer what he wants, when you read the catalog, but the quality of instruction in Hebrew, Greek, Latin can be very uneven. It might be useful to ask these schools if their students go on to graduate schools. They should be able to tell you where their students went to graduate school and if they now hold university teaching positions. You could also ask how often the courses listed are taught and if those professors will actually be on campus, teaching, during your son’s undergraduate years. In his case, some college visits would be very useful. Since resources are limited, I suggest he do this sort of visiting by email. From the catalog and departmental faculty lists, he should be able to pick out the faculty with whom he might want to study and then contact them about his interests. The responses should be useful imho</p>

<p>I would like to very respectfully suggest it may be impossible to become a scholar in these fields without leaving his religious comfort zone while in the academic environment. He probably is going to have to separate his personal beliefs and academic pursuits somewhat. Frequently students like your son do an undergraduate degree, then a masters of divinity, before a PhD. Some of the Catholic schools are a really good choice for what he wants to do, if he wants to do Christianity. I believe Hebrew Bible is generally taught in a Jewish studies department. I find it an interesting puzzle to consider where he might find a protestant “religious” college that will offer the academics he needs to be prepared for competitive graduate schools. For example - Duke, of course, comes to mind though the campus culture is definitely not what he is looking for. Duke, originally Methodist, and has a Divinity School and Religious Studies graduate dept, where he probably could take classes as an undergraduate. Duke produces some Rhodes Scholars. I am trying to decide, from your son’s perspective, how different the campus culture is at Yale from Duke. Chicago also seems to me to have everything he is looking for except the campus culture. Some really excellent academic options are on your “probably not” list. I am going to keep reading to see other suggestions. Good Luck!!!</p>

<p>adding: When you say he wants to major in Philosophy - what exactly is he thinking he wants to study at this point in time?</p>

11

<p>Since your son is seriously considering Emory, make sure he also applies to Oxford College. While it doesn’t offer Hebrew unless he’s willing to commute an hour each way by the free shuttle, it does provide a small college environment for the first two years. Perhaps more importantly, there are fewer opportunities for your son to feel left out because of his class. Almost all activities are free, all students live in the same dorms, and all students must buy the same meal plan. The school sources its financial aid from Emory’s pool meaning that your son will get to enjoy the benefits of Emory Advantage if admitted (Oxford’s acceptance rate is around 15% higher than that of Main campus although it’s no longer need blind for 15% of the admitted class). If you have any questions about the school, feel free to PM me. My former roommate’s brother is a religion major, and I know a bit about the philosophy program.</p>

<p>Also note that fraternities and sororities often function very differently at LACs than they do at larger universities particularly if the majority of the student body belongs to one. I wouldn’t rule Sewanee out if it otherwise seems like a good option, especially because the school is very generous with financial aid.</p>

12

<p>Alvin Plantinga has retired from Notre Dame and is back at Calvin in the Philosophy department. He is one of the foremost Protestant philosophers in the country so it might be worth checking how much contact students would have with him. </p>

<p>You might also look at Catholic University. Their Philosophy is good, as well as Latin and Greek, they give good aid and he would be close to home while technically in a different state :wink: Also their semester abroad program is strong, especially their Rome program. Not sure how much Hebrew.</p>

13

<p>The University of Chicago is noticeably absent…and Rutgers has shown up on lists for philosophy and religion for years and years. If money is essential, it might be good to use that as the criteria and do that research over the next 6 months for culling that list to a manageable number. If he breaks a 30 on the ACT he could use that for Michigan, otherwise check the SAT for concordance. If he doesn’t reach into the 30s, that school will be an uber-reach financially if you are out of state for Michigan. He’ll need those scores, anyway, to keep the Yales, MITs etc. on the list but you should know this criteria after this spring’s testing. Good luck, I think you’ve got plenty of schools on your list to research and pretty defined criteria to put a manageable list together.</p>

14

<p>Also, you can contact me if he does make NMSF for info on Oklahoma. I’m very involved in the Hillel, and as a result know a few people who have taken Hebrew (can’t remember if it’s biblical or modern though).</p>

15

<p>I can’t imagine why you have Chicago as a “probably not,” since it meets most of your criteria other than being Christian (and it has deep Christian roots, which are reflected in a strong Divinity School and a strong allied/adjacent Protestant seminary). And, honestly, I don’t think you are going to have an easy time finding a Protestant college that is well-respected among academic Philosophy departments and that meets financial need (although Berea is an important possibility). Chicago also guarantees loan-free aid packages to students in your apparent financial circumstances.</p>

<p>Your son will need backups/safeties, but to me he looks like a perfectly good candidate for the high-prestige private colleges that in general give the best financial aid to low-income students they accept. Almost all of them, not just a few, should be on his “definitely apply” list. Not just Yale, but also Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, Penn, Chicago, Stanford, Duke. And certainly Williams and Swarthmore, and maybe Amherst, Middlebury, Wesleyan, Carleton. The modest differences among them aren’t worth worrying about when your first priority is getting a solid financial aid package.</p>

16

<p>University of Michigan does not meet need to those OOS. </p>

<p>I’m not sure what you mean by “hostile” to Christianity, but I can almost guarantee you that if he were to justify something in a philosophy/ethics class at U of M by using the Bible as justification, he would be rightly challenged.</p>

17

<p>OP- I think you need to help your son create a hierarchy in order to evaluate schools.</p>

<p>What’s most important- debt free full ride? Then he may need to compromise on some social or religious aspects. Small size and respected philosophy major? Then he may need to compromise on Biblical Hebrew or may be looking at a moderate amount of student loans. Lots of academic freedom to pursue many things at once vs. a strong core? Etc.</p>

<p>Don’t try to solve this equation for 6 variables simultaneously. Figure out the one or two most important elements of the search, and then go from there. I’d be happy to start throwing out random suggestions for you… but what’s the point?</p>

<p>You should also know (which I’m sure you do) that the vast majority of 17 year olds change their majors, career plans, etc. several times. While your son seems committed to something in the Philosophy/Theology/Classics space right now, don’t ignore the possibility that he may find enthnomusicology or anthropology or Art History just as compelling once he discovers them. And he may decide that he needs fluency in German or French for grad school, and two ancient languages are sufficient. Or that he wants to attend a grad program in Archival Preservation or Art Restoration, and so needs a few semesters of chemistry/materials science in addition to the content classes. Etc.</p>

<p>Just saying- don’t try to slice the bologna too thin here. If the money is going to drive the search, encourage your son to look for colleges with some or most or part of what he’s looking for intellectually, and be prepared to compromise a bit on the social aspects. </p>

<p>And he may find the academic orientation at a place like Chicago even more to his liking than a more doctrinally focused theology program at a Christian university. Take a look at the non-classroom opportunities as well- who comes to speak? Give seminars? Dean’s Teas or debates? Summer jobs editing professors books or cataloguing in the university museums?</p>

18

<p>I have not read the whole thread but if you are looking at Sewanee you have to look at Rhodes as well. Rhodes does have a party atmosphere (but students do not live in Greek houses, which helps a bit). </p>

<p>Rhodes has a truly excellent curriculum, including “Search” and “Life” tracks that require all students to take 3 semesters of Philosophy/Religion/History courses. Students in these classes read primary sources – including the Bible. I am a professor myself and I am really impressed with the academics at Rhodes.</p>

<p>My daughter is a senior there and I would be happy to answer any questions I can.</p>

19

<p>Okay, let me say right up front that I do not know your S at all so this post is not meant as a personal attack.</p>

<p>Is your son absolutely brilliant? I ask because if he isn’t, there is very little chance that he will end up with a tenure track position teaching philosophy at an accredited college. It’s a VERY oversubscribed field–many, many more Ph.Ds than teaching positions. The average time spent in grad school pre-PhD for philosophy was running about 7 years the last time I checked. The job outlook for even those who make it through is extremely poor, even for those finishing the very top programs. If you want something more authoritative than jonri’s personal opinion, look at this: [Graduate</a> School](<a href=“Philosophy | Seattle Pacific University”>Philosophy | Seattle Pacific University) You can hope that the job market will be better about 14 years from now when your S is looking for a job, but I wouldn’t count on it. Another good way to get an idea of just how bleak the job situation is by perusing [Welcome</a> to Phylo | Phylo](<a href=“http://phylo.info/]Welcome”>http://phylo.info/) It currently has 26 job openings listed; some are in other countries and many are not tenure track positions. Some of the positions are already closed. According to phylo, its job listing is accessed an average of 1,000 times a day during hiring season. One of the people who helps run phylo is a fairly recent Ph.D. who does have a tenure track position—teaching digital humanities in a library science program. In other words, flexibility is key. </p>

<p>Now, your son may be the exception. However, I would NOT spend a heck of a lot of time asking questions about where did your philosophy students go to graduate school and how many of them have tenure track positions. Anyone who tells you that more than a couple of their students in the last 20 years have tenure track positions in philosophy is lying through his or her teeth.</p>

<p>So, I would focus on the other aspects of his college search. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t seek out a strong philosophy department; I’m just saying that he shouldn’t measure how good it is by criteria like the number of tenure track profs it has produced.</p>

<p>Colleges with strong undergrad philosophy courses include NYU (notoriously bad with need based financial aid), U of Pittsburgh, and Princeton. I would NOT recommend Yale for philosophy. I would recommend Notre Dame, but it is VERY Catholic. Georgetown and Fordham might be worth looking at and are less “culturally Catholic” than ND.</p>

<p>He might be better off seeking a college strong in religious studies. For that I would recommend Williams College and UPenn.</p>

<p>(In both areas, there are lots of other good programs.)</p>

<p>However, again, I would suggest that the strength of the philosophy department take a minor role in your search criteria. Focus on finding a college with strong academics which offers the other things he wants.</p>

20

<p>George Fox has a really good philosophy department, teaches Biblical Hebrew, has a Christian/conservative Quaker orientation and is a really “Friendly” place (in both senses of the term. He’d likely qualify for substantial merit aid.</p>