Super reach--should she try it anyway?

Parents Forum
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<p>That’s an excellent point, especially if the application is intensive. DS spent a huge amount of time on MIT essays even though we knew it was a longshot (for him and all applicants). When he did so he still thought MIT would be the right fit, so it’s probably good that he gave it a try. But it certainly was a time zapper during a time when he had to do other college apps, and scholarship apps, and IB courses (and keep his As) and ECs too. Ha, he was not able to follow the “have all your apps submitted by Halloween” advise.</p>

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<p>Long shot odds are one thing when a school has an extremely low admit rate like the Ivies or MIT, but it is reasonable to apply if your academic profile is one that would be considered. And the applicant has to realize the odds are slim due to the low admit rate but not due to their profile. It is another thing altogether if the odds of getting in are about 1% or less because your profile is not one that is normally ever considered for a particular college.</p>

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<p>There is no need to wonder. Her dream school (Rice) is beyond a super reach for her. It’s an absolute impossibility. Her gpa, test scores, and lack of rigor suggests a guaranteed rejection. </p>

<p>Forget about Rice. Move on. Spend time finding a new dream school with a better academic fit.</p>

<p>on a side note: I wonder if this is more the parent’s issue than the daughter’s. The daughter appears to understand that Rice is too far of a reach for her to bother sending out the application.
She’s right. On the other hand, Mom can’t seem to let go of the idea of Rice.</p>

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<p>Upon rereading the initial post, I’m not sure I quite understand. Sounds like D wrote up her tentative list and left Rice off. She likes the school but realizes it ain’t gonna happen for her. It sounds to me she is being realistic and is looking for reaches that are reasonable reaches for her, as well as matches and safeties. I applaud your daughter because I see too many who have very unrealistic college lists. Perhaps she needs to keep exploring selective schools to find reaches she also can love and even go visit. I would follow her lead on this. Further, I would encourage keeping a realistic outlook, while still reaching high, but reaching realistically at the same time. Selecting colleges is not just about schools you like but one must select colleges relative to their own qualifications.</p>

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<p>[Rice</a> University | Faculty | Researchers](<a href=“http://www.professor.rice.edu/professor/Entering_Class.asp?SnID=1738332223]Rice”>http://www.professor.rice.edu/professor/Entering_Class.asp?SnID=1738332223)
^some info for the OP to analyze</p>

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<p>Try, you never know what may happen. Someone I know applied to Brown thinking he wouldn’t get in with his scores. He got the letter saying he’s accepted. This story may seem meaningless to your daughter, but tell her to apply anyway. She has nothing to lose.</p>

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<p>If the hooks are:</p>

<p>Black
blind
single mom</p>

<p>Yeah, I say good reach</p>

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<p>It is hard to argue with soozievt – been around a while.</p>

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<p>Teenagers do change their minds. Maybe Rice is no longer her dream school? That, or the dau is a realist and has decided it isn’t worth the time/effort for a serious longshot, and that time is better spent on other applications. </p>

<p>That said, there are lots of posters on cc who apply to many many serious reach schools, and whose applications probably dont get more than a quick look before going into the “no thanks” pile. But they do it anyway. If this OP’s dau is applying to a reasonable number of schools (and not applying to 20 or so to see what happens) then my hat is off to her.</p>

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<p>I still stand by my advice. All things considered, it’s probably your daughter’s best bet.</p>

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<p>If she has the time and energy, I guess there’s no harm in applying to Rice. However, by almost all accounts, her odds are very slim. Rice is by far the toughest school to get admitted to in Texas.</p>

<p>It looks like you guys live in California. FWIW, Rice has almost identical mid 50% SAT admission scores to Stanford. (Rice 1320-1530 vs Stanford 1340-1540 for CR+M). Cal Berkley’s stats are quite a bit lower than Rice (1230 - 1470). Maybe those two comparisons help give a regional perspective of how ridiculously hard it is to get into Rice.</p>

<p>If you could give us more info, we might be able to make another suggestion or two in this part of the world that could be a good fit for your daughter, if she is interested in going to college in Texas.</p>

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<p>Yeah, maybe she’s cooled on Rice. Before ds was WL’d there, he’d cooled on it, too. He stayed on the first WL “just to see” but said he probably wouldn’t go there if he got off the WL. He didn’t go on the second-round WL. If she has cooled then why apply? OTOH, if she’s less excited about it a rejection won’t sting as much.</p>

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<p>My third D, the one who wanted to avoid “unnecessary rejection,” chose not to apply to one school where she knew her SATs would probably get her denied but did apply to another super-reach that she never realistically thought she’d be accepted to…and she wasn’t. It still stings, and at some level, she might have been happier living with the illusion that she might have gotten in had she tried. But she ultimately decided that she’d rather regret their decision not to admit her than her own cowardice in not applying. YMMV.</p>

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<p>As I wrote previously, a college list should be built relative to one’s qualifications (not to mention selection criteria and interests). But what I see too often is kids and parents creating college lists regardless of the student’s academic profile and simply find schools they like. I don’t really understand this. For example, on the Musical Theater Forum, quite often a student will ask “which schools offer MT?” and just builds a list of schools with this major without any relation to their academic profile. I have seen this on the Architecture forum which I also regularly read. If selecting colleges were only that simple! </p>

<p>Selecting colleges needs to be vis a vie one’s own profile. Certainly, include reaches!! Aim high. Balance the list with matches and safeties. But I truly see no point in applying to colleges that are impossible reaches where a student has NO chance of admission. I’m into applying to some schools where the chances are slim, but there is at least some chance of acceptance because the college has accepted some students with that profile. Sometimes even when students or parents see the black and white facts about acceptances at a particular college, they still seem to ignore it. I’ve had students come to me who have a combined CR/M of 920 who want NYU. It just is not possible. Even some when presented the cold hard facts, want to ignore them. I had a student who wanted UMichigan who had CR/M SATs in the 900’s, a GPA of 2.8 with the easiest high school curriculum I have ever seen. When I presented the facts in cold hard numbers of nobody being admitted to UMich with that profile, they chose to ignore it. The application to that school and the program in particular, was very involved. A lot of effort, when it could be spent otherwise on apps that stood SOME chance. There is NO pleasure in spring to thinking “I told you so.” </p>

<p>It really is up to the individual as to where to apply to college, but I strongly encourage people to create a list that has some realism to it. Take chances and reach high, but be realistic at the same time and only have schools on the list where you have a chance, even if a very small chance, of getting in.</p>

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<p>Thanks all, OP here. D is URM. Dedicated volunteer, long time athlete with a keen interest in comtemporary history. She has a strong list of ‘realistic’ colleges set up ready for applications and has visited all of them. Good to go. The Rice thing, it’s a glimmer, she knows it, she’s pored thru the university stats, student admit profiles. She sees she’s an aberration. In the end, she may not want to invest the time on the app, and it will be her choice, but I don’t think there is much to lose by trying one super reach.</p>

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<p>JRNMom, as I wrote on this thread initially, what you shared in the first post was not enough to go on. Now you are saying she is an URM. That is a a hook. Is she recruitable as an athlete? Does she have achievements on a regional or state level of some sort in her activities? Is she the first to go to college in your family? More information helps in assessing the situation. If she has significant hooks, and her profile is very low for the school, it may be worth a shot. Still, find other reachy schools that have some similarities to Rice and see if you can visit because if she goes down a notch in selectivity, it would still be reachy odds but more within the realm of possibility. But again, the fact that she is URM does help, but you did not mention that previously. That is why I tend to not participate on “what are my chances” type threads, because a LOT of information must be gathered about a student to really assess their odds at a school. The information in the first post was not nearly enough information. Very selective colleges, like Rice, do not merely accept based on crunching numbers. However, to be considered, one’s numbers should remotely be in the ballpark for the school. But so much else goes into the admissions decision and we are missing much of that information about your daughter. Best of luck to her. If she wants to go for it, there is nothing to lose, that is true.</p>

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<p>I will mention one thing to the OP…I think I read in a post you posted elsewhere on CC that your D did not choose to take the demanding courses at her high school, is that right? I know on this thread, you only said she didn’t take APs but didn’t say whether her school even offers AP classes. But based on another thread, I think your D did choose not to take the more demanding courses her school does offer. And that is one thing she could have controlled if she was seeking very selective colleges. Then the pathway to that goal is to take a rigorous high school curriculum. I think that will hurt your D more than the low SAT scores. I’m just posting this because I know many CCers read the thread and may gain some insight (I realize this one point is too late for your D…however, she could sign up now for a more rigorous senior year curriculum and that would help a bit).</p>

<p>The lower SAT might not be the issue for her in admissions since she is URM. But having a 3.4 GPA in a less rigorous curriculum than what her high school offers may cause the adcoms to wonder if your D can succeed in Rice’s rigorous curriculum as she has not been “tested” in that manner to date and is not excelling at the easier curriculum track as it is.</p>

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<p>“She sees she’s an aberration. In the end, she may not want to invest the time on the app, and it will be her choice, but I don’t think there is much to lose by trying one super reach.”</p>

<p>However, it does seem like your daughter has moved on, and even though she’s a URM (I am black), I think her decision is wise. </p>

<p>I don’t see why instead of spending her time on more potentially productive activities (such as, for instance, spending lots of time on supplemental essays for colleges that might give her merit aid) she should invest the time and energy into applying for a super reach she’s not likely to be accepted to. I assume that as is the case with most highly selective schools, Rice has supplemental essays your daughter would have to do, which would mean more work for her during a busy senior year.</p>

<p>I also believe that her SAT scores probably reflect the fact that she hasn’t taken any APs, and that lack of academic background would put her at a great disadvantage if she were to go to Rice, where probably most students have taken a much more rigorous curriculum than she has.</p>

<p>Her gpa is not impressive particularly since she chose not to take any APs. She’d be competing against students with AP-intensive curricula and much higher gpas.</p>

<p>Her choosing not to take APs also indicates that she is not attracted to the kind of intellectual rigor that a top school like Rice would provide. Rice doesn’t seem a good fit for her.</p>

<p>In all honestly, I can’t think of any situations in which it’s worth it for students to apply to super reaches. I doubt that the students will spend their lives wondering “what if?” if the school truly is a super reach. They’d realize that if they had applied, they probably would have gotten a rejection.</p>

<p>Being a URM doesn’t mean that someone will get in whose scores are far below the norm for a college. Being a URM is just a tip factor.</p>

<p>The only possible advantage of your D’s applying to a super reach like Rice is that a rejection might help her realize that there’s no easy road to getting into a top school. If she wants to, for instance, get into a top graduate or professional school, she’ll need to get excellent grades in college and also take whatever curricula top schools require.</p>

<p>What her her chances for Rice most is her avoiding taking a demanding high school curricula.</p>

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<p>I happen to agree that the time is better spent on other applications, activities, schoolwork, scholarship applications than the Rice application which does have supplemental essays. To each his own.</p>

<p>I also agree that the hook of URM is a tip factor but it can’t overcome if all the “stats” are very much under the norm at the college…but could help tip in if ONE part of the profile is low, but in this case, the rigor of curriculum, GPA and SATs are not up to Rice’s standards (not sure about class rank here).</p>

<p>The mom mentions one OR TWO hooks. What is the other one? Is she a recruited athlete? Add that in and it might help. URM alone likely isn’t enough to overcome the rest.</p>

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<p>Agree w/NSM. My URM ds got WL’d with a 2200+ SAT.</p>