<p>Agree w/69. Ignore ignorance. There’s no point in engaging. Still, use some judgement as well, even for essetial issues like this one, when there’s no more to be said that’ll make any diff. Unless more therapy is needed. ;)</p>
<ol>
<li> I don’t blame someone from wanting an “end” to this thread. It is rather long and it is rather repetitive and I take some responsibility for the repetition.</li>
<li> I think the bottom line is there will always be those that want public prayer whether in religious institutions or governmental institutions. I think the same people that insist on public prayer anywhere are somehow convinced that to preclude that somehow precludes private prayer and/or the right to religious freedom (it doesn’t).</li>
<li> I think there will always be people who think that those who fight against the imposition of public prayer are G-dless creatures who don’t believe or practice any religion.<br></li>
<li> We will never resolve the issue because we live in a free country where people still have the right to believe whatever and express varying points of view and disagreement.</li>
<li> Personally, I think that if the issue goes to the Courts, the USNA will lose.</li>
</ol>
<p>Funny how no one has been able to substantiate anything regarding my last post. I pretty much dropped the hammer, reason was here first…and the mission of USNA is not to develop midshipmen SPIRITUALLY. My last post #134 has all that I’m going to say about the topic.</p>
<p>Make that “Morally.” And of course, morality relates to codes of conduct, behavior. But the ultimate issue in morality is from whence does it stem. And now we’re back to spirituality.</p>
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<p>Morality is not dependent upon “spirituality.”</p>
<p>Morality can (and does) exist completely outside of religion and spirituality.</p>
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<p>Sigh…. To be blunt (and of course I’m speaking for myself here) we were ignoring you as further discussion with you seemed pointless. </p>
<p>So to the casual observer he or she should conclude your assessment of this comes down to quite simply that your view of the world and religion is correct and those that believe otherwise are a bunch of misguided fools? Does that about sum it up? “They don’t get it, but I do”</p>
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<p>I really think you need a time out… </p>
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<p>You mean as in make fun of them or perhaps discriminate against them, in the Brigade or in the Fleet? You know if there were enough people that believed as you do, you’d be in the majority now, you could get away with that couldn’t you? You could turn the tables on those awful, misguided religious fanatics and get back at them, teach them a lesson perhaps? Downgrade them? </p>
<p>And then there was the discussion about returning to logic and reason. </p>
<p>Maybe it’s my age showing but I’m having a real hard time following the following from the standpoint of logic and reason: </p>
<p>Midshipman fails to pray at mealtime. </p>
<p>Midshipman is “downgraded” by his/her peers as a consequence of his/her obvious lack of spiritualism</p>
<p>Midshipman is rated #1
Midshipman is rated #1
Midshipman is rated #1</p>
<p>What did I miss? </p>
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<p>As in ancient man understood how the universe worked and then those religious fanatics showed up at some point in the past and sold man a bill of goods on the nature of the universe?? Are you suggesting ancient theologians rewrote or revised the common understanding of how the world worked much in the same way some revisionists attempt to diminish or discount the holocaust? </p>
<p>Our views and the conclusions we draw have to be viewed in within a historical context. Try not to think in such concrete terms and make some attempt to draw distinctions between the cultural and spiritual aspects of most religions. </p>
<p>You can look at many religions and will certainly see contained within them the cultural or “practical” aspects of knowledge that was obviously designed to instruct; to teach. You might even describe those lessons in derisive and contemporary language. Something we might refer to using colloquial terms as the “Idiots guide on our world and the heavens” and “Where man came from in 3 easy lessons” aka creationism. </p>
<p>You can look at the written texts of most religions and contrast their understanding with what you know today and conclude they didn’t know much; as in you’re smart and they were well…stupid. If you look at religion in such a manner, you’re ever bit as blind as your contemporaries that read those same words and choose to interpret them literally, ignoring the knowledge mankind has gained since those words were written. At the end of the day both of you will have missed what was written on the pages and obviously not truly read or understood. </p>
<p>At the risk of being wrong, and I’ve been there before, let me throw something out here that may be a stretch… I’m guessing you are a Caucasian male? Is that about right? Do you have any clue how fortunate you are to be born so, a male child born in the United States of America near the end of the 20th century? An event you can’t possibly take credit for. Do you have any appreciation for the lives of tens, perhaps hundreds of millions of people that live in darkness, most every day of their life, not as fortunate as you? </p>
<p>Do you have any understanding of what it means to live in a world where the only spark of light in your life may be you faith? The only thing that allows you put one foot in front of the other as you walk 100 miles to a refugee camp. The only thing that gives you the strength to smile at tell your child tomorrow will be a better day. </p>
<p>Can you possibly understand that your beliefs are as much a consequence of who you are, as well as in, where and when you exist? So then who is ever right? Or is it simply a case of what may be “right” for some may not be right for you? </p>
<p>Knowledge and humility should go hand and hand; as you gain more of one you should also develop a greater appreciation of the other. </p>
<p>There is no doubt questioning whether or not public prayer should be facilitated in an institution like the Naval Academy is an entirely reasonable debate. The issue of “discrimination” or “downgrading” is only tangentially related to a discussion on the presence of religious services sponsored by the USNA. As others have said, such discrimination amounts to a failure of leadership. Absent prayer, without corrective action, discrimination will continue, the only change will be the host or vehicle of choice through which the discrimination will be delivered. </p>
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<p>No question. At least I hope that is true. I don’t think of myself as a very spiritual person, yet I try to be a moral one. </p>
<p>The question I would raise is “what is the basis of morality”? At least in the west do we not define moral against an “aggregated” set of standards whose foundations existed first within religion? Would you agree that it would be very difficult to define what is moral without the benchmarks or contexts first established within religion(s)? So despite the fact that we may feel we have outgrown some aspects of religion it still remains a fundamental part of how we define ourselves and relate to others. </p>
<p>Perhaps in the end what will come about is more in line with what Jeebus is suggesting; you come together for a moment of silence before meal time and you do whatever it is you choose to do. If that is what comes of this debate, if that is what it takes to find some middle ground I would find that to be an entirely reasonable compromise in which I hope all participants can feel comfortable.</p>
<p>i support noon-time prayer.</p>
<p>Rjrzroom, I think you’re ignoring the wrong person. Sadly, you’re wrong here, the person everyone was talking about ignoring was keydet because he made an erroneous comment in the other thread (which I never posted in) about saluting officers and midshipmen. I think you said that everyone else (you) were ignoring me because you wanted to rally support from the rest of your side, but you really did not not who they were talking about. The order USNA69 gave, “Ignore him” was directed toward keydet. Do you think 69 really wants me to but out of this? No… he is welcoming responses, which I think is fair.</p>
<p>Honestly, besides letting the CC board know that I was ranked #1, I think I’ve been pretty modest about who I am as a person. I don’t “fail” to pray at meal, you say it like I’m deficient in some area of USNA life. I “choose not to” pray during meal. I am not rated down for my “obvious lack of spiritualism”. Actually, I do not outwardly show anyone that I don’t pray. Certainly, there are mids who make it a point to let everyone else know that, “hey, pay attention to me, I’m deliberately not praying”. I have more respect for people’s beliefs than you think as I think diversity is the most important aspect of the military. To pound the point home, I don’t think you can get ranked first without being compassionate about other people’s beliefs. I may post MY beliefs on a message board, but I would never show disrespect to anyone regarding their beliefs. You talk about how fortunate I am to be at the US Naval Academy during wartime and the potential to make a difference in the world. Be careful about the assumptions you make, rjrzroom. I’m the first person to know what the words like FORTUNATE and GRATEFUL really mean. Yes, I am caucasian, and know more about darkness just as much as anyone else at USNA. I know I’m lucky to be here…everyday I get up, I feel like a million bucks. Why? I’ve already beat the odds, and now I can take the fight and spread optimism to the people I’m going to serve with. It’s important to be a visionary and to analyze the big picture. </p>
<p>My dark past had no implications on me gaining an appointment to the Naval Academy. I know how precious life really is, and it truely makes a difference in how I view leadership everyday. My parents both passed away when I was seven years old, and I spent two years living on the streets by myself until placed in foster care. Most of my time was spent sleeping in dumpsters and stealing from markets while being locked out of the house while in foster care. I spent my time in 8 different foster homes until I was finally adopted at the age of 16 with a seriously distorted view of the world. State workers told me that it’d be a miracle if I ever graduated high school. I worked hard in high school after being given what seemed like “the opportunity of a lifetime”. Took up running just for kicks, ran a 4:17 mile in high school, got a 1400 on the SAT’s, had the pick of the litter for colleges…seems like the American dream. What would give me the idea to come to the Naval Academy?</p>
<p>Probably because I feel that I’m immuned to anything bad that is going on around me and can help lead in combat and highly stressful situations. Instead of opportunity, I felt that the military could use my insights about how to navigate problems and lead our nation’s finest people in a time period we need most. Rjrzroom, be careful before you make assumptions because caucasion doesn’t really mean privileged at all.</p>
<p>I post on these boards because I feel that I can represent what is going on in the brigade and let parents know what is happening in their mid’s lives. Rjrzroom, gather your wits about you before you let your conviction get the best of you. I have never promoted myself on here, but now it seems like some of my personal or character traits have risen to the surface and my abilities as a future officer have come in question. Please pardon me for relinquishing some of my personal life to prove a point.</p>
<p>Back to 69’s point. I have never said in any of my posts that “Prayer is necessary in the Navy, but not at the Academy”. The word “necessary” implies that it is “needed”. If you carefully read, I said that the only thing that is needed in the Navy is the crew’s trust in their leadership that they can get through any tough situation. I think the crew and the officers should believe in each other’s abilities through all the training they’ve been through that they can get through any hardship. I’d rather have my men and women trust their training before soliciting the outside force, but if they did, I wouldn’t (and couldn’t) discourage them, it’s just not respectful.</p>
<p>WP, morality does not, (and should not) stem from any source. My view is that humans are inherently good and they know what the right thing to do is, they should just choose to do it, but are not bounded by anything not to do so. I would have a problem following someone who is moral because they will get some personal gain from it, as in that they are motivated by some other force just to be moral. You know morality deep down as all humans do…morality along with reason is one of those things that came with humans, issued by the supernatural force that created the universe. Rightfully, we learn in ethics class that morality can come from anywhere and there’s no real way to explain it. It is one of those things that is even more complicated to explain than religion because it often has a religious component attached to it.</p>
<p>Rjrzroom, people who believe the words in the Bible are not an awful, or even misguided people. Simply, I just question why non-believers in organized religion are seen as outcasts when they use the human instinct of reason first before anything.</p>
<p>Reference to other “saluting” thread <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/naval-academy-annapolis/541901-chain-command-2.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/naval-academy-annapolis/541901-chain-command-2.html</a></p>
<p>Rjrzroom, I’ve probably seen you at Greater Boston Parents club gatherings before, I’m from RI originally, just on a lighter note.</p>
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[Quote=Jeebus]
Morality is not dependent upon “spirituality.” **</p>
<p>I think the Academy might differ with you here. Here is the excerpt from the current catalog explaining the Academy’s position on the necessity for spiritual awareness and it’s effects on leadership and morality : (Emphasis mine)</p>
<p>Spiritual Fitness
The copper-green dome of the Chapel towers over the other buildings in the Yard at the Naval Academy and, in a sense, serves as a symbol of the academy to the outside world. This is more than a coincidence. **Over the decades of our history, fighting Americans have learned by experience that there is a dimension to military leadership — both in and out of combat — that is essential to real effectiveness. This is the spiritual factor, the intangible quality we call moral courage. It is this aspect of the academy’s mission that the Religious Ministries Program strives to fulfill: to foster spiritual fitness and promote the moral development of the midshipmen within the tenets of an individual’s personal faith or belief. ** The Chaplain Center serves the religious and
spiritual needs of the brigade by ministering to the midshipmen through pastoral care, spiritual and religious mentoring, ritual and sacramental obligations and by providing pastoral care for all, regardless of their faith background. The academy embraces freedom of religion in all that we do. This means allowing our midshipmen to worship or not as they desire while placing no requirements on midshipmen to embrace specific beliefs or participate in specifi c religious events. At the same time we provide support for a wide variety of religious beliefs so those midshipmen who desire to worship are free and able to do so for their own personal moral development. While attendance at religious services is voluntary, midshipmen are reminded that as officers of the naval service, their personal beliefs will often be tested, and that in time of stress their subordinates will look to them for spiritual, as well as professional guidance. The Naval Academy has long believed that future officers owe it to themselves and to those they will lead to gain insights into moral, ethical and spiritual dimensions of military leadership. Further, we want to make sure our midshipmen understand the responsibilities they will have as officers in ensuring religious support for their Sailors and Marines no matter the nature of their beliefs. Not only do we want our midshipmen and young officers to respect the beliefs and practices of those who follow a different religion or hold beliefs different from their own, we want them to understand and embrace their need as officers to ensure their Sailors and Marines can attend services and receive religious support aboard ship or on the battlefield. From the first day of Plebe Summer until the day of commissioning four years later, the academy’s chaplains serve and minister to the spiritual needs of the Brigade of Midshipmen. Chaplains are actively involved in a host of Brigade activities, provide personal counseling, ranging from faith-centered issues through crises of life and death, to future marriage plans.</p>
<p>Let me remind everyone of the sentence right before the part '69 highlighted, that there are no requirements for midshipmen to attend religious services.</p>
<p>I think the point of “spriritual fitness” in the USNA catalog is to make sure midshipmen are firmly grounded in their beliefs. From the looks of it, many people here are pretty firmly grounded about their stance of religion in comparision to other people our age. I still maintain that the people I meet who do not believe in God as he is described in the Bible are more spiritually fit than those who do believe. Nowhere in that blurb does it state anything about the origins of morality. You can’t do it in a paragraph, that’s why we take a three credit class in it.</p>
<p>It is important that people here know that I indeed have a belief in a supernatural force that served as a catalyst for creating the earth. I don’t think people realized this when reading my posts. I have gained “spiritual fitness” by becoming more sure about my beliefs than I ever have before by what I have learned in classes at USNA. Before, I was a Christian, but USNA has done its job by making me a more compassionate, understanding combat leader who is firmly grounded in my beliefs and who is able to comprehend the beliefs of all different backgrounds and faiths.</p>
<p>So you can ask the question: Has USNA failed in “retaining” and strengthening my beliefs as a Christian, or have they succeeded in making me more sure about my beliefs? Has USNA failed in making me a more understanding and more sensitive future officer when it comes to the beliefs of others? I assure you that I am more aware about the diverstiy of religious beliefs than ever before and that it is important to respect the beliefs of all to promote good order and discipline, and camaraderie.</p>
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<p>No, I would disagree. </p>
<p>The Latin phrase “malum in se” explains it well. There are some things that are evil (and immoral) unto themselves, and there is no need for any religious or spiritual teaching to know and understand that.</p>
<p>Murder was immoral well before any religious commandment prohibited it.</p>
<p>And slavery was immoral despite religion’s pronouncement of acceptability.</p>
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<p>I doubt the Christan right wing would be mollified with such a reasonable compromise. They see any enforcement of the Establishment Clause as an attack against them.</p>
<p>From the Mids that I have talked to on this issue, there seems to be an consensus that the noon prayer should be replaced by a moment of silence, where each individual can exercise his or her right to pray and not impose on another’s right to not. I have heard where Mids have been judged on their religious belief system. </p>
<p>You do not need to be religious to to define morality and you don’t need to subscribe to a specific Religion be moral. And on the same note you certainly do not need to pray in public to be religious, or profess your spirituality. </p>
<p>Separation of Church and State - this is pretty basic.</p>
<p>Jeebus:
“Malum in se” is a legal term defining a basic cultural acceptance of right and wrong. Your or my perception of right and wrong can always be influenced by cultural background. Is an “honor killing” a violation of “malum in se”?? It is certainly not “malum prohibitum” in many countries of this world and unfortunately becoming more prevelant in the United States.</p>
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<p>Oh my. We are in trouble if a Mid believes he/she doesn’t even have the “right” or “personal power” to TAKE a moment of silence in his/her day but it must be organized and given by the USNA. Sheesh. Don’t allow the risk of state sponsored religion. Let the individual TAKE whatever moments they need to pray if they so choose. Sheesh. I wonder how many Mids who claim the “need” for the noon prayer have stood up and demanded a “morning” prayer, a and an “evening” prayer for that matter. Why not before each class…each trip to the potty. Should my brothers demand the right to wear their Yalmulke at the USNA because not permitting so would infringe on THEIR right to practice THEIR religion? Is there discrimination because I noticed that the Basics at USAFA were given chapel time before the Friday night sabbath, not during but chapel time on the Sunday version of the sabbath wasn’t interfered with. Hmmm. Oh ACLU???</p>
<p>Sheesh. Convoluted or what?</p>
<p>Jeebus:</p>
<p>Without reference to any religion please explain in as many words required:</p>
<p>Why is Murder Immoral?</p>
<p>Why is Slavery Immoral?</p>
<p>And don’t just tell me that they are not nice things to do to another human being and you wouldn’t like either done to you.<br>
You can PM if the answer is too long for posting.</p>
<p>AG6872:</p>
<p>Are you suggesting that morality cannot be defined without including some “religious” influence?</p>
<p>“Murder” is immoral in most, if not all, societies because most societies view life as worth protecting. What has “religion” to do with it? </p>
<p>“Slavery” is immoral in most, if not all, societies but that has changed and continues to change. What you may call slavery today someone else may not call slavery. But for the same reasons as Murder is immoral, slavery may also be held to be immoral…society dictates whether that is a society founded in religion or not.</p>
<p>I’m sorry…but what do you hope to accomplish with your two questions?</p>
<p>Religion has nothing to do with it. The definitions of Murder and Slavery are dependent upon the norms of the society within which they occur. Without a consensus based upon accepted and codified morality there is only anarchy. You state that most, if not all, societies view life as worth protecting. I think that if you look around the World you will find that “most societies” do not view the definitions as you do. In many, if not most, societies around the world, what you or I might call murder occurs on a regular basis or is considered retribution for a previous wrong and monetary compensation is paid to the aggrieved family. In many, if not most, societies around the world slavery or servitude is considered the rightful place of those of lower class,status or ethnic origin. This does not include those segments of the world currently involved in war, famine, strife and revolution. You may call me cynical but as someone on another thread stated “it is what it is”</p>