support USNA voluntary noon prayer

Colleges & Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
121

<p>

</p>

<p>Hard to argue that would not be viewed as a legitimate concern. What I understood about the religious activities at the USAFA were enough of a concern for me, a former Air Force officer to discourage his son from applying there and instead going Navy if he wanted an Academy education. I think the relative isolation of the USAFA provided the “Christian evangelical bigots” an environment that was somewhat sheltered in contrast to the USNA. The combination of those events along with the debacle surrounding the apparent ease at which female cadets were sexually assaulted has certainly illustrated the need for constant and vigilant oversight by those within and out of military service. </p>

<p>In terms of the issue under discussion perhaps at some point in the future I can only hope some of these mids objecting to the notion of coming together for prayer will come to appreciate what the few moments in which the Brigade bowed their heads really meant. There is a fundamental disconnect that I don’t think will be bridged, at least at this point in their lives. </p>

<p>The notion as posted by one in which the suggestion was made in the event a sailor or soldier under the stress of combat came to them and asked to pray; that they should be directed to “go do it on their own and in private” as that would be the politically correct solution. I’m sorry but I cannot fathom how any human being, let alone a fellow soldier could turn away from someone trying to connect with them, not convert them, before heading into battle. </p>

<p>Coming together for a non-denominational service in which all beliefs are respected and included can only benefit those members of the Brigade who appreciate the intent of the service. This is not about the individual. When you come together in acknowledgement of your own mortality you gain a much greater appreciation for the importance of the group over the individual. It is an opportunity to draw strength from each other and hopefully recognize you are not alone for that would be a terrible place to be in times of war. Once you are out in the fleet the mission and your life may depend on the man or woman standing next to. I would like to think the moments in which the Brigade comes together for prayer of any kind is as much about acknowledging a common purpose and vulnerability as it is about any given religion. </p>

<p>Some may feel that such a connection can be achieved without some basis in religion, perhaps that is true. They may point to or use analogies found in team sports where men and women come together to win as one. For me the distinction between the two is quite simple and goes directly to the basis for my support for prayer; sports are about competition with winners and losers; military service is a life and death endeavor. The recognition of ones mortality is an intrinsic part of every mission in which your life and those around you are placed at risk. Coming to terms with ones mortality and the understanding your remaing life may be measured in hours or days is a revelation I for one would not want to face alone.</p>

122

<p>

</p>

<p>No, but I can think of at least three situations of which I am aware, how many more of which I have no idea, I don’t know, where I didn’t have sufficient time to turn to God and that there was no logical explanation for my surviving. Maybe all those USNA mess hall noon meal prayers, mandatory chapels, and shipboard evening prayers added up.</p>

123

<p>But USNA69, your speculation in that statement shows just how unsure you might be about whether these religious acts contributed to saving you.</p>

<p>Why can’t you see that nature is the most divine force of all? Instead of tying to explain it by something else, take the important stuff you learned at USNA to explain what you have yet to figure out. The important material I’m talking about is stuff you learn about in chemistry in physics. Nature is so beautiful, why would you attempt discredit her capabilities by believing something you can’t prove?</p>

124

<p>GoNavyXC, we are getting a little off track. You don’t seem to categorically reject prayer in a mandatory Navy environment since you seem to find it okay sometimes aboard ship. So it is not a legal concern. You seem concerned that you will be looked upon unfavorably, yet, this is apparently unfounded as you claim to be #1 in your company in grease. Therefore, it is also not a concern for the ‘persecution’ of others. Now you are trying to turn this thread into a theological discussion. A perceived intellectual superiority and little bit of intolerance of the views of others is starting to creep through in your posts. I am disappointed.</p>

125

<p>USNA69, I’m not at all intolerant of other people’s views, I just find them hard to understand at times. It’s not so much my ignorance, it’s more of an unfounded curiosity that I’ve had when it comes to the government and the military linked to religion. Why is it incorporated in our lives, why is it on our money, why is it in our nation’s pledge? As Americans, we owe our nation too much to rely on external forces to protect her and make her what she is, and we’re fully capable without any outside help.</p>

<p>I maintain that there is a supernatural force that created the earth and has served as a catalyst for making it what it is. Why do we constantly have to pray to it and ask for forgiveness and serenity? We should just let this force do what it does, let the military do what it does best. Hopefully, the two entities coincide, but we should never solicit help from the outside forces as we’d be underestimating our own abilities as a fighting machine and as a nation.</p>

126

<p>Questions:</p>

<p>Do officers lead whole men/women after they leave the Naval Academy? (meaning, not just their physical bodies, but their emotional, mental, etc)</p>

<p>Are men/women made up of many things, including a spiritual side? (I believe almost every belief system acknowledges that man has a spiritual nature..the particular beliefs are all over the board but there is the spiritual nature in all)</p>

<p>Does the Naval Academy, have the responsibility to be sure the Navy or Marine Officer is trained in every aspect of leadership, enabling them to lead whole men/women into battle? (does it really matter whether that officer is the PT stud, or the straight A student, or the not so good at peer relations? Are they not required and trained for 4 years to bring them to a level of proficiency that prepares them to lead in all areas?)</p>

<p>Will an officer EVER be responsible for morale/attitudes/focus that in anyway will have a spiritual side? (i.e. a funeral, loosing a buddy on the battlefield and there is no chaplin around, Dear John letters from home, depression) As long as mankind operates in any type of spiritual nature, (seeking a higher power for explanation, comfort, help, direction..and that higher power can be your own self) THEN officers who lead these men and women will need to be equipped in some fashion to deal with this.</p>

<p>If, an officer in training is so uncomfortable at a voluntary noon meal prayer (when they could just stare at their plate and who would know whether they are participating or not) that he/she can’t handle it, then please tell me how they are going to handle helping their men/women in anyway spiritually in the thick of things.</p>

<p>Will they simply walk away from their men gathered to pray because they are uncomfortable? Will they refuse to attend a funeral of a different faith than theirs? (hey, a funeral..mortality, is there anything after this life..all that is pretty uncomfortable! So can the officer just choose not to attend because it may offend his belief system)</p>

<p>“ship, shipmate, self”…it is what they are supposed to be learning. What is best for the whole unit, the ship, even the Brigade? Do the opinions of a few who choose to focus on “self” now throw this whole motto out the window? </p>

<p>No one is getting beat up. If there are any real examples (not speculation) that rankings are affected by participation or not, then that should be dealt with as any unfair ranking practices. (oh, but what to do about the varsity athletes who can tend to get lower rankings at times simply because they are not in the Hall enough for peers to make a call on them so they stick them at the bottom? Best stop varsity athletics because that may be a cause for some low rankings as well…???) Rankings can be all over the board for a thousand reasons. </p>

<p>AND I would question, if someone is judged in any way for not participating, how is that anyone knows whether they were participating or not? As an officer in training, is it not correct behavior to pause in respect for a religious man/woman speaking? If you are staring at your plate, quietly, and not causing a stink..how in the world would anyone around you know whether you are participating or just thinking about your girlfriend, that thermo test, or just getting some sleep? I have to wonder what mids who are worried about “repercussions” are doing to think they are being watched? </p>

<p>“Ship, shipmate, self”…either the Naval Academy will stick to this or will cave to political correctedness. (which PC thinking today is certainly NOT “ship, shipmate, self” so then there is the question, how do you continue to train a military to do its job of self sacrifice if you are trying to fit into a society that is about “self.”)</p>

<p>“I am uncomfortable with voluntary noon meal prayer” reverses the entire premise of training…“self” not “ship” is the driving force. (and this will carry into the leading of men/women when difficult situations arise. Can the officer get past their own being uncomfortable and do what is right for “ship and shipmate” or does their own “self” and their feelings dictate?</p>

127

<p>

</p>

<p>Take a step back and think about that, assuming you have the ability to move beyond your own beliefs. Do you think your view as expressed in the quote above is any different than those members of the Brigade that do pray and want to continue? Do you think for a moment that individuals with the kind of character defects that you suggest are rampant at the academy and engaged in the persecution and downgrading of those that do not believe as you do, do not exist on this side, your side of this religious discussion? </p>

<p>Do you honestly believe if the situation was reversed and you were now in the majority that the kind of “religious persecution” you profess to be so concerned about would not occur? The only change would be the names and faces of those people that choose to believe in something different than you do. </p>

<p>It’s not the god or G-d (with respect to my new friends) you pray to, or not pray to; it’s the people. </p>

<p>You last posts come across as every bit as inflexible and strident as some of the born agains I’ve met. “Why can’t you see God’s greatness in all things” “How can you be so blind” etc etc. </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Is that quote any different than </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Or is it simply a case that one is more politically correct than the other? </p>

<p>If a Jew can stand next to a Christian who is standing next to a Muslim, and they can all come together in prayer that favors none, despite their differences in beliefs and culture, why can’t you stand beside them in prayer or simply acknowledgment of the spiritual greatness of nature as you all share another bond, beyond your humanity, as members of the brigade?</p>

128

<p>This is an interesting and endless thread that is imo, a very important part of preparing men and women to lead, highly relevant to the vision, mission and activities @ USNA. Lots of interesting thoughts and ideas buried in the previous 126 posts or so. While prayer is the specific issue of the moment the idea really seems to be about the source of inspiration, courage, selflessness, generosity, identifying where the high road is and from whence it comes. The ACLU and diversity of ideas here reflect our cultural digression from our nation’s history as not only a godly nation but one whose primary principle of freedom stems from not merely a Higher Power but Jesus Christ. So many simply refuse to buy that, and prefer rewritten history. It’s about the denial that this is where our guiding foundations spring from, even the hatred and despise that many show for that source, and the struggle to reorient our foundations in the midst of earthquakes aplenty. </p>

<p>It’s about the defensiveness, guilt, and again consequent hatred that many have who prefer not to consider or be held to the standard that there are universal truths that were not established by men. Truth that is true for all, not just me or you or even Thomas Jefferson & Co. Many prefer the concept that truth is personal. My truth is not yours. Yours not mine. But of course, then it’s no longer true, right? Just what we think we think. It’s allowing the current cultural call for tolerance and diversification in color, sex, sexuality, belief systems, religions, and more to become tolerance of deviation from seeking,knowing and embracing the literal foundaton for love, care, acceptance of all, no matter our personal differences. And most of all, there are many who believe that man’s “goodness” and civility can somehow manifest these outcomes in lieu of calling upon that Higher Power. God isn’t necessary, so sure no need to pray. </p>

<p>And that’s mostly what prayer is all about. The quiet, spirtual beckoning and conversation that nurtures both a relationship and understanding of that Higher Power, and in turn reflects in who we are and how we will lead when leading is required. Even for many humanists, prayer, reconstituted into reflection that looks into their source of wisdom and hope, i.e. oneself can have value.</p>

<p>The alternative is that it somehow comes from who knows where and needs no nurturing. I have a really tough time swallowing that one. In fact, believing that we are capable of engendering that under our own power requires much more faith than believing Jesus is who he said he was or even that these things are simply somehow inherent in our biology.</p>

<p>A bit of a digression, but isn’t it interesting that 2 recently demised media figures, Snow and Russert, both idolized as real leaders, made no bones about the source of their abilities and gifts. And they lived in the most ungodly of environs.</p>

129

<ol>
<li> I repeat…If a person wants to pray, there is NOTHING to prevent him/her from doing just that…noon meal prayer or not.</li>
<li> What is gained by the PUBLIC vs. PRIVATE aspect in a governmental institution? You create no better “leader” by imposing the publicness of the prayer vs. the private. You merely create an environment in which a few, or many will pass judgment. Proving it will be difficult but it has happened and will continue as long as the environment is allowed to continue. GoNavyXC is in the thick of it and sees, it. I’m sure others have similar experiences. It happened(s) at the USAFA. It happens across the country in many, if not alll aspects of life. People judge those that are “different.” Sure that should be dealt with but until then get rid of the environment that fosters this behavior. Again…we’d only get rid of the PUBLIC aspect..the individual is still permitted to pray PRIVATELY. There is no “teaching of tolerance” by imposing the PUBLIC nature…if the goal is teach tolerance…then teach tolerance in the classroom…that is the purpose of the USNA…it’s an EDUCATIONAL institution.</li>
<li> I believe in spirituality of many sources…philosophical as well as psychological as well as religious as well as new age…people are typically made up of a combination of some, if not all of this…doesn’t make them any less able to lead if they follow NO RELIGION…doesn’t make them any less able to help their fellow man who may be in trouble, e.g. divorce, death etc. if he/she is not of a particular religious denomination or a different one…again at that point it is one on one…I have drawn on religious sources OTHER THAN MY OWN to help a friend who believes other than I do…yes, I have encouraged the friend to ask for guidance, e.g from JC even though I do not believe but because he/she DOES. So please do not “assume” that I could not lead/help/offer guidance because I’m intolerant of PUBLIC PRAYER IN A GOVERNMENTAL INSTITUTION. The bad is outweighed by the good (the bad of the PUBLIC aspect). </li>
</ol>

<p>I think the problem is that too many believe that the ACLU merely wants to end prayer…any prayer. BS! It is only the PUBLIC aspect of it in governmental settings.</p>

130

<p>Funny lawyer (is that an oxymoron? :confused:)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>You illustrate an interesting point on which I suspect we differ. First, this is not a public venue anymore than going to class, visiting a Mid’s room in Bancroft is. It’s merely funded by public funds. Big difference. Very unlike you or I hanging out on the courtroom steps.</p>

<p>2nd, spiritual education is a mission mandate of USNA. Mids are not proselytized about who or what to pray. Merely that they should be practicing and nurturing their spiritual element, assured that it is important to their education and preparation for leading. Prayer … or reflection … meditation … or simply being reverently quiet for a moment …should no more be left to individual choice and schedules than calculus should be given over to independent study if and when they have the time or inclination. Or saying “no more study hours” or no need to show @ PEP or … you get it. It’s not optional.</p>

131

<p>I fully understand that all are allowed to pray in private. What you do not seem to understand is that as an officer in the Navy or Marine Corps, they will be expected to be handle such matters in PUBLIC! Funerals are PUBLIC. Men praying together before battle is most likely PUBLIC. Prayer on ships is PUBLIC. Do those officers who are so uncomfortable with PUBLIC recuse themselves from funerals, from praying with the “bigger than my own self” group?? THAT is the question. </p>

<p>An officer needs to be comfortable enough in PUBLIC to lead his/her men/women in all situations. That is part of USNA’s job to get them ready. I stand by my statement, if mids are so uncomfortable for fear of ridicule (which please…site me a few cases here…like I said..If they are being respectful at all, who would know whether they are praying or not?), then how in the world will they comfortable enough to deal with any spiritual issues that come up?</p>

<p>Please note, all graduating from the United States Naval Academy WILL say the Oath of Office which ends in “So help me God.” (hey..fill in your own thought for whatever your “God” is…but they say “I do”…PUBLICALLY…very loudly) The nation was founded on the acknowledgement of Divine Providence (again..you are free to fill in the blank on who or what that is) but is our history. If you don’t want to take an Oath (a public oath) that ends in “SO help me God”…then don’t take the oath. </p>

<p>And as far as any one mid being in the “thick of things”…hello…I thought that is what they signed up…to be in the thick of things..being molded, changed, trained into the image that the United States Naval Academy says is an officer ready to lead. Some will have to work their rears off to pass the PRT (that is the thick of things) some will have to study harder than others (that is the thick of things) some will have to learn to “work and play well with others” (that is the thick of things) and some will have to learn to respect PUBLICALLY, that many around them ARE motivated by some type of spiritual strength and as a soon to be officer, they will have to encounter and lead these people. (publically…not privately!)</p>

132

<p>

</p>

<p>And the answer is IMPOSITION vs. CHOICE.
And be that as it may if it is “expected” that an officer attend a religious event not of his/her belief then I think that too is wrong…it is an imposition to “require” one to do something. If it is his/her “choice” that is another. </p>

<p>Men praying together before battle is THEIR choice…they are not forcing anyone to sit through THEIR prayer…they take a knee or whatever pray and if others are like minded they do as well the MOMENT is not IMPOSED…it is just done…like as in private prayer…a few at the same table may join the like minded individual in prayer…to me it’s still private because it is not IMPOSED. However if the Lt, before battle, says “we are all going to pray now”…I would call that an imposition…even if I end up praying…it takes away my “choice” It gives the appearance too of self righteousness as if that moment is more “credible/official” than any other in which I may pray privately.</p>

<p>Prayer on ships I am no familiar with as I am not in the Navy…but assuming it is broadcast over the PA system…I would also argue is an imposition and creates the same type of negative environment. Again…what purpose is served by forcing it to be PUBLIC. Why cannot the goal of being spiritual be obtained privately? Why can’t tolerance be taught vs. imposed. People tend to naturally rebel against thing imposed upon them good or bad.</p>

<p>If it’s not already clear…I would love for the world to be more tolerant. I would love the idea of a public prayer/nondenominational…but I see and feel the judgment created as a result and it sends chills up my spine…because…you allow this..and then something more and soon the dam breaks wide open and you can’t control the flood.</p>

133

<p>Comparing institutionally-sponsored, superior officer-led public prayer at the USNA and a funeral (or a foxhole or a ship or in battle) is simply a spurious attempt to deflect the real argument. Neither has anything to do with the other.</p>

<p>What harm is caused by changing the noon prayer from “public” to “private”?</p>

<p>We certainly know that some are being harmed (or at least they perceive to be harmed) by not joining in, we see it everyday.</p>

<p>Why must the religious right insist on keeping their belief system so “public” instead of keeping it privately between themselves and their god?</p>

<p>If every Midn who sat down to eat is allowed to say Grace, or Birchat Hamazon, or Bismillah, or Itadakimasu PRIVATELY, how are they harmed? </p>

<p>They still get to say their prayer and in no way infringe upon anyone else’s beliefs (or non beliefs).</p>

<p>It seems that allowing everyone to say their prayer to their god privately solves the problem.</p>

<p>Faith, and your relationship with your diety, should be private. </p>

<p>Public prayer and a “hey look at me, I’m religious” attitude is for hypocrites.</p>

134

<p>Whistle Pig,</p>

<p>The mission of the United States Naval Academy is to develop midshipmen morally, mentally, and physically. You say that PT, the physical mission and academics are not optional, and you are correct. However, you lump, “reflection, meditation, and prayer” in with the other non-optional developmental areas. Are you saying that these activities are serving as the components to develop the moral mission of USNA? If the mission was to develop midshipmen spiritually, mentally, and physically, you might have been on to something. There are ways to develop midshipmen morally, like teaching us the importance of accountability, tact, leadership, and job efficiency that have nothing to do with soliciting the outside force that exists.</p>

<p>The mission of USNA is vague and the midshipmen here take it with a grain of salt. An officer’s ability to be innovative in any situation is something that embodies the mission here. Most people like to think that they have to look at the mission and make sure that they meet all the criteria. I like to think of it in another way. USNA says that midshipmen should be developed morally, mentally and physically..in order to imbue them with the highest ideals of duty, honor, and loyalty. You can get all of those things without ever praying, picking up a bible, going to mass, or even reflecting, and it’s not required of me to do any of those things. It’s great to make sure that as an individual midshipman, you’re doing your best to uphold the mission. I see it as my job to develop other midshipmen to help achieve this mission. As it turns out, it is everyone’s job to develop each other, because combined, those people I come in contact with will be more responsible for the well-being of sailors, marines, ships, and entire commands more than I ever will as an individual. When you have such a diverse population and different sets of ideas, what way of development is right? Are you going to make everyone drink the punch, or are you going to cherish the diversity that exists?</p>

<p>(rjrzroom)</p>

<p>“Why can’t you see that nature is the most divine force of all?” </p>

<p>Is that quote any different than </p>

<p>“Why can’t you see that God is the most divine force of all?” </p>

<p>(rjrzroom)</p>

<p>Yeah actually, the quotes are a whole lot different. Religion is a revisionist point of view to explain the universe. Before religion and beliefs were invented, man used logic and empirical evidence to explain his world. As time wore on, man realized his constant struggle and had to invent Gods to try to uncover how the world worked. There are many examples of this before the days of Jesus Christ with the Ancient Egyptians and the Ancient Greeks came up with a polytheistic belief system to explain things like the Earth’s revolution, seasons, climate etc, which can clearly be explained by scientific discovery today. Before religion ever existed, reason existed a whole lot longer before it, that’s why the quotes are different. In America, atheists are looked down upon as scoundrels with no morals because they do not have a set of beliefs to goven them. What terrible people they must be and how unfit to lead they must be, they must have caught wind of some corrupt system…no reason has always been there, but religion hasn’t. It’s funny…shouldn’t the atheists be ridiculing the theists in America (or even USNA?)? It seems kind of backwards!</p>

135

<p>This needs to stop- this is supposed to be a forum providing guidance for incoming students not a soap box for your own pet causes! Summarize and move on. On the one side- some portion of the brigade of midshipmen is supporting a suit alleging that Lunch Prayer is an unconstitutional government endorsement of religion. The other side has responded that this prayer is voluntary and is an example of the constitutional guarantee of the free exercise of religion. Got it- the courts will decide and we all have personal opinions on how they will decide. Do yourselves and the rest of us a favor and Kill this thread at this point- you are all making fools of yourselves running off at the mouth- and both sides are spewing lots of drivel. Since I have seen numerous postings in the past by a number of you - undoubtedly several of you will just have to pile on with the last word here- but try and resist and let it go!</p>

136

<p>Keydet, I agree, I’m done posting on here about this and I venture to guess that my opinion is just a microcosm of how the rest of the Brigade feels. In the end, we are all struggling human beings and we need to rely on our trust in each other and higher powers to get us through.</p>

137

<p>And all the people said …</p>

138

<p>

</p>

<p>keydet, not that I can see inside your home but I doubt that anyone is holding a gun to your head to force you to read this. Since you are not Academy and really have nothing to do with it, your interest puzzles me. Army traditions and Navy customs and traditions are no where close to the same and I would not expect you to understand them. Neither would I expect you to ‘police’ a forum to which you really have no membership. Actually, amidst the drivel, there have been some very thoughtful posts. Considering the source, being considered a fool by some is no big hindrance. And hopefully this is not the “last word here”, in the event someone has some original thought.</p>

139

<p>69,</p>

<p>Unfortunately, I have been real busy and don’t have the luxury of posting everyday! I have a lot on my plate.</p>

<p>The role of a DIVO is not to act as a religious leader…DIVOs are there for obtaining the right resources, providing counseling, and motivation. There are plenty of people who can provide religious services…chaplains and on-ship lay leaders. </p>

<p>Being in C5F, where pay is tax-free due to “war zone” like conditions, I have somewhat of an overview of how sailors are reacting to conditions. Right now Iran could lodge a missile at us at any moments notice. There is a lot of stress placed on these sailors, but I have not had one ask myself or LCPO about seeing a chaplain or asking for religious services. I am sure their hopes would be more influenced by knowing that their CO, XO, DH, DIVO, LCPO, and LPO have confidence and trust in their training and knowledge. </p>

<p>I think the main difference between USNA and a ship is the following: at USNA, there is no constraint (i.e. MIDN aren’t forced by some external means of being kept in King Hall while the prayer is occuring), but when personnel are underway on a ship, they can’t just “jump off.” With this being said, I believe the Navy could argue that there is a valid purpose for having a non-denominational prayer over the 1MC. As I mentioned before, this case will probably rest on the facts of “military purpose.” I would argue that it would be practically impossible to assemble all personnel in a specific location, at a specific time, for a short prayer – people are on watch, have other obligations, etc. that prevent them from attending AND the use of the 1MC is the most convenient way. At USNA, it is more realistic to offer prayers in a specific location for each denomination (there are already religious clubs and prayers could be recited at that time). I think there are reasonable alternatives at USNA, whereas there is not on a ship.</p>

<p>I am done posting on this topic (as others have requested).</p>

140

<p>jadler, Reading both yours and GoNavyXC’s responses, you both apparently feel a need for prayer in the Navy. Both your lines of reason are very difficult to follow. One could almost deduce that you both see the value of prayer so long as it does not personally involve you. I would argue that a tradition worthy of the fleet would demand your exposure. That is the purpose of USNA, to expose you to these customs and traditions and help you learn to appreciate them.</p>

<p>Ignore the request to quit posting. It is a relevant topic and perhaps our discussions will affect just one future Naval Officer, one way or the other. Even though he calls you, GoNavyXC, other midshipmen, grads, and parents, all fools, you know better. He is simply baiting, attempting to elicit an emotional response. Heck, back in the ‘saluting’ thread, he, totally ignorant of the subject,incorrectly called grads liars. Ignore him.</p>