<p>Completely agree with above poster.</p>
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As for Asians, they obviously don't realize that because of AA, they are the biggest, by far, minority in colleges.
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<p>Are you seriously saying that affirmative action created huge Asian minorities on college campuses? Must be why they're actively discriminated against in the admissions process, huh?</p>
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Without the civil rights movement that many Black people led and are still leading, because it is not over, Asians, like the rest of us, would not be allowed to got to college either.
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</p>
<p>Actually, most colleges admitted minorities well before the Civil Rights Movement. Regardless, however, you're right; universities are now colorblind. As such, any black person who desires to get an education can, without the aid of affirmative action. AA only benefits those already seeking an Ivy league education; it doesn't make them any smarter, nor does it confer any degree of social advancement to these already well-off minorities. Yale and others tried to enroll masses of poor inner-city kids in the 1960s, but found that they simply weren't ready for an Ivy-caliber education. The elite colleges changed their focuses, and thus began to view black skin in and of itself as a disadvantage, and so began the "diversity" phenomenon.</p>
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There are still many Black people who cannot get a job because of the skin color.
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<p>The skin color? Whose skin color? ;)</p>
<p>Seriously, though, that's not true.</p>
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So if admissions were just income-based, it would just be a lot of white people getting into college because most people in poverty are white.
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</p>
<p>Pray tell, why are black people in poverty any more deserving of reserved positions than are white applicants? In fact, why are poor people, solely because of their poverty, deserving of said positions at all?</p>
<p>aristotle, you have your ups and downs.</p>
<p>You are quite ignorant in that you deny the disadvantage and discrimination that many african americans face, but that is not the issue.</p>
<p>The Ivy league education DOES confer a social advancement on minorities, that social advancement is why people seek out ivy league schools. </p>
<p>Yes Asians were among the biggest beneficiaries of AA, i'm actually shocked that you denied that. </p>
<p>Your upside is that you are commited to your argument in that you also believe that poor people aren't any more deserving of positions, i respect that rare universal standard. </p>
<p>Fabrizio: What i said was that almost ALL of the asians in america today, including those poorest 10%, are immigrants which were the top 2% of where they came from. 2% there = 100% here. So you can't compare that 100%, which is actually a combination of the top 2%, to the entire 100% of african americans in our society.</p>
<p>But let me just say that I do oppose AA as a form of reparations for discrimination. But i do believe that the situation of urms in society is a problem that needs to be resolved by society. And i do believe that racial, gender, geographic, and socioeconomic diversity in higher education advances all of society. And I thoroughly support the right of universities to build their classes around diversity. Though i do not support denying Asian applicants simply because they are asian.</p>
<p>Tyler,</p>
<p>I am not comparing all, or even almost all, Asians to all blacks.</p>
<p>I compared poverty level Asians with upper middle class blacks and showed that in 1995, the black students only scored twenty-five points higher on average despite having in some cases over seven times more income.</p>
<p>I am comparing a subset of a group with a subset of another group. Not all Asians live at the poverty level. Not all blacks are upper middle class. Thus, the black upper middle class does not represent “the entire 100% of African Americans in our society.”</p>
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Though i do not support denying Asian applicants simply because they are asian.
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<p>I’m glad to read this from you. I believe it is at odds, however, with your prior claims of support for “proportional representation,” a policy which inevitably leads to the rejection of students based on race as “proportions” are met.</p>
<p>who is keeping Asians out of college? haven't you seen the mass quatities of Asians in America's universities? Is it because some Asians complain that they didn't get into Harvard even though they had perfect everything that you say this?</p>
<p>trackbabi is a RACIST against asians!!!!!! <em>gasp</em></p>
<p>
[quote]
So if admissions were just income-based, it would just be a lot of white people getting into college because most people in poverty are white. That would not be helping anything. But if we were to help this higher percentage of Black people in poverty, than we could help level out education in America.
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</p>
<p>So the ONLY thing is you want to do is help Blacks period. AA should help those with disadvantaged resources, those for the "inner-city schools", those who're living under poverty. I don't care if 99.99% of those are Black, that means 0.01% are still being actively discriminated against and the the 0.01% Blacks are gaining an unfair advantage!</p>
<p>TrackBabi, get your facts straight. It was Princeton, not Harvard.</p>
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[quote]
who is keeping Asians out of college? haven't you seen the mass quatities of Asians in America's universities? Is it because some Asians complain that they didn't get into Harvard even though they had perfect everything that you say this?
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</p>
<ol>
<li><p>No one.</p></li>
<li><p>Yes, I have seen a lot of Americans of Asian descent in our universities.</p></li>
<li><p>You may be alluding to Jian Li. He was not accepted to Harvard, but he filed his civil rights complaint against Princeton. Even if he did not do so, I would still feel the same.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
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I hope white people who have gotten everything they wanted because our society is set up to benefit them realize how lucky they are. Perhaps I can get NHS hours by going to the newly segregated inner city schools and tutor them in what education system is probably going to fail to teach them.
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</p>
<p>The solution to the problems many inner city schools face is NOT shipping out and in certain numbers of each race. They need better teachers, supplies, programs, and the funding to actually get those things. More than that, the kids that attend those schools need more encouragement that education IS important and that it can be their way out. </p>
<p>Sure, shipping out a few may be a benefit of those few, but what about all of those left behind?</p>
<p>^completely agree, I think TrackBabi said something like that earlier too. And I don't think she was talking about a specific case. I didn't even know about that case. </p>
<p>If there are more white people benefited by AA if it was income-based, then there would be more white people getting into schools and the problem of Black people not getting into college will not be solved. Because as she said there are more white people in poverty than Black people</p>
<p>medha, thats kind of the point of RACE BASED AA, to help those urms. You cant say that socioeconomic AA only would be a better choice because it would be helping those urms less. The problem that we're trying to solve is the low urm representation.</p>
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[QUOTE]
Okay if AA did not help him,Clarence Thomas, or any other Black person or other minority, even Asians, in this country achieve, what was it? I find it hard to believe that "racist America" suddenly started to like minorities right after AA was implemented.
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<p>AA did not help him achieve, in the most common sense of the word. You could say it helped him get ahead, but I don't think he wanted that.</p>
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The help that minorities receive from AA does not downplay the abilities of those it helps, it only allows and forces people to notice their abilities. That's what a lot of people on CC are confused about. They believe that because AA helps minorities get into college, that minorities are obviously less intelligent than they are. Which is not true. White people don't even have to worry about us taking over the colleges anyway, they're still in the majority.
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<p>Yes, but it doesn't do anything. People who are helped by AA are usually not any less intelligent than those who are hurt by it, but they tend to be the most privileged of the URMs, hardly adding diversity. Like I have said, programs for underprivileged kids in general before college is more likely to actually add diversity.</p>
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[QUOTE]
As for Asians, they obviously don't realize that because of AA, they are the biggest, by far, minority in colleges. Without the civil rights movement that many Black people led and are still leading, because it is not over, Asians, like the rest of us, would not be allowed to got to college either.
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<p>Not because of AA. Despite AA.</p>
<p>The Civil Rights Movement in the South, or at least what is taught in our schools and colleges about it, was not about Asians. It was about African-Americans with some Caucasians trying to gain more rights for themselves, not for the Asians. Except in the West, where they continued to be discriminated against for some time after the Civil Rights Movement, the amount of Asians in the country was negligible.</p>
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There are more white people in poverty than Black people because whites are in the majority. But...the percentage of the Black population in poverty is a lot higher than the percentage of white population in poverty. So if admissions were just income-based, it would just be a lot of white people getting into college because most people in poverty are white.
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</p>
<p>Is this supposed to make sense? If AA was socioeconomically based, all underprivileged people would be equally benefited.</p>
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I am saddened that because of one womens frustrations, close to 50,000 under privileged minority students may be forced into sub-par inner city schools that will simply not offer them the same positive learning environment.
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<p>Though I concede that this post is mildly convincing, think of the opportunity cost as well as the benefits. We have been arguing about college AA (which is also not the topic of the thread), and personally I think that this issue is much less clear cut. And since I have neither incentive nor moral obligation to act against race-based high school admission (our three high schools are all on one campus anyway), I officially declare myself apathetic.</p>
<p>I also do think it's unfair to have to greatly increase commute times just for</p>
<p>In response to my own previous post, yes, AA has helped Asians in the past. It doesn't anymore, so we can really ignore its effects on Asians in the present day and figure out if it really is helping URMs like it's supposed to.</p>
<p>So if admissions were just income-based, it would just be a lot of white people getting into college because most people in poverty are white. That would not be helping anything. </p>
<p>Are you really a soph. at Cornell?</p>
<p>^^ well, she had clearly benefited from affirmative action when she applied to cornell...</p>
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The Ivy league education DOES confer a social advancement on minorities, that social advancement is why people seek out ivy league schools.
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<p>Not to the already privileged URMs who are most likely to benefit from AA.</p>
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who is keeping Asians out of college?
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<p>I realize that nobody is out to get Asians, just as nobody is out to get African-Americans. Pay special attention to that last part.</p>
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I don't care if 99.99% of those are Black, that means 0.01% are still being actively discriminated against and the the 0.01% Blacks are gaining an unfair advantage!
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<p>This is more than a bit exaggerated, but I see your point. However, it is more likely that the URMs who will benefit will be the rich, privileged ones, therefore not adding diversity. As I mentioned earlier, I can confirm that a group of rich, preppy blacks is virtually the same as a group of rich, preppy whites. The only difference is that Al Sharpton hates the latter.</p>
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The solution to the problems many inner city schools face is NOT shipping out and in certain numbers of each race.
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<p>Exactly. But I still remain neutral on this issue, except for the fact that the extra gas usage hurts the environment.</p>
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If there are more white people benefited by AA if it was income-based, then there would be more white people getting into schools and the problem of Black people not getting into college will not be solved. Because as she said there are more white people in poverty than Black people
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</p>
<p>This does not at all change the fact that white poor people need as much help as black poor people. The problem is not that black people aren't getting into colleges. The problem is a lack of opportunity and diversity. This is not being helped by our modern versions of AA.</p>
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Sure, shipping out a few may be a benefit of those few, but what about all of those left behind?
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<p>See the solution I mentioned earlier - programs before college for all underprivileged students.</p>
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That would not be helping anything.
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<p>Yes it would. The goal of AA wasn't to help African-Americans. It was to increase opportunity for the underprivileged. Socioeconomically based AA would help all underprivileged kids.</p>
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You are quite ignorant in that you deny the disadvantage and discrimination that many african americans face, but that is not the issue.
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</p>
<p>Real racism, "job denied because of skin color" racism, is almost non-existent in the United States. Casual racism is mostly non-existent in the United States as well, save for a few isolated areas in the deep south. Other groups have also faced racism; it's not an excuse for underrepresentation.The reason blacks and Hispanics are underrepresented in elite colleges is certainly not due to discrimination.</p>
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[quote]
The Ivy league education DOES confer a social advancement on minorities, that social advancement is why people seek out ivy league schools.
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</p>
<p>Affirmative action only benefits well-off minorities who don't need any help to succeed.</p>
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Yes Asians were among the biggest beneficiaries of AA, i'm actually shocked that you denied that.
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</p>
<p>"Were" is the key word there. Current majorities of Asians and women on college campuses has almost nothing to do with past affirmative action. If that were the case, you'd see the same majorities of blacks and Hispanics.</p>
<p>I encourage you to read [url=<a href="http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/%5Dthis%5B/url">http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/]this[/url</a>] article. It discusses a moderately wealthy black neighborhood whose high school students are flunking school, and well illustrates the problem with affirmative action. AA will benefit these kids when they apply to college. They're not socioeconomically disadvantaged. Their parents are doctors, lawyers, and judges. The average GPA of a black student in that district is 1.9, whereas the average GPA of a white student in the same district is 3.45. The only problem with these black students is that they don't want to succeed. If their parents are any indication, they are perfectly capable of doing so, and yet have no desire to. I can't see how anyone could possibly defend affirmative action for these students.</p>
<p>From the article:</p>
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[quote]
It wasn’t socioeconomics, school funding, or racism that accounted for the students' poor performance, Ogbu says; it was their own attitudes, and those of their parents.
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I am saddened that because of one womens frustrations, close to 50,000 under privileged minority students may be forced into sub-par inner city schools that will simply not offer them the same positive learning environment.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, why are under-privileged minority students any more deserving than privileged majority students, who will be forced into these inner-city schools? Apparently, the parents can elect where to send their kids; if poor minority parents truly want their kids to succeed, they can put them into the better schools. Besides, if poor minority students are forced into the majority white schools (and there's nothing from the case that suggests that the majority white schools are much stronger), there's no indication that they'll perform better, from my understanding of Thomas' opinion.</p>
<p>The true face of America.</p>
<p>^agreed Wow you all really don't understand. Because you see some Black kids in college that are "articulate", as you like to point out you just assume that AA only helps privileged Black people. It doesn't even matter what you think anyway. There are smarter people with power out there to stop people like you. AA will persevere till things are equal. </p>
<p>It's funny because people would say stuff like this when civil rights activists wanted to integrate schools 50 years ago. Funny how history repeats itself.</p>