Supreme Court: Race-based High School Admission Illegal

Pre-College Issues High School Life
281

<p>whatsinaname:</p>

<p>If there were a socioeconomic AA, the "privilege of being white" would not matter. It wouldn't look at race. What if that underprivileged white is homosexual? Would societal stigmatization cancel out the privilege of being white? These are all irrelevant issues anyway. I agree - there are schools giving out full fin aid etc. Just a theoretical scenario.</p>

<p>As with fabrizio, I'd also like to help out URMs who want to further their education. I'm pretty sure everyone who knows something about AA wants to. But the means to achieve the result of providing equal opportunity to URMs isn't the best way. By using AA, the overrepresented are undoubtedly hurt. </p>

<p>The Jim Crow laws were abolished years ago, and America has changed for the better. Racism is still present, but there has been a marked decline. URMs are no longer suppressed by a corrupt system. I just don't understand why it is necessary to provide URMs with benefits to compensate for the past at the expense of the overrepresented. If we want to fight discrimination and prevent the past from happening again, why do we have to take away opportunities from the overrepresented? Blacks were repressed for so long in this country, but their repression does not justify the repression of others (like Asians, Whites). The ends do not justify the means.</p>

282

<p>whatisinaname, you make many assumptions. Firstly, my family has gone through many income changes, so I know perfectly well what it's like to be dirt poor as well as reasonably well off. I understand quite well the disadvantages that exist in crappy inner-city schools, so don't play the holier-than-thou card with me. </p>

<p>Secondly, you seem to think that "diversity" means interracial mixing only. That is merely one type of diversity, and imho the weakest kind. There's also socioeconomic status, which imho is FAR more important. Coming from a background of poverty and later on middle-class like I did, I can tell you that there are a TON of different perspectives and viewpoints the disadvantaged can give to the privileged that add plenty to diversity. I fail to see what color said student is matters at all. All of my friends at that crappy school were in the same boat, black, white, asian or anything else. We hung out together, did the same stuff, studied the same materials with the same crappy teachers, etc. There really was no difference between my black friends and myself, which is precisely why I believe racial AA and racial diversity to be weak at best.</p>

<p>You say colorblindness ignores the history of African Americans. But here's a question for you: Is that history who you are? No. YOUR history is what you've done, the friends you've made, the times when you decided to jump off the top of a building onto a car for fun, etc. That is "who you are". I fail to see why anything else matters. When you see a chinese guy do you really think "Wow back in the 20th century Mao set back his country by decades"? Or when you see a French guy do you think "Gosh Lafayette really helped us out way back when"? Of course you don't.</p>

<p>"Back in Jim Crow times, poor whites, in some areas, were excused by the law to terrorize black communities. iut's called white privilege."</p>

<p>And this relates to underprivileged whites in current times how...? It doesn't. You can never improve the future if you live in the past all your life.</p>

<p>Koolmaria - Entirely untrue. I never viewed AA as disqualifying me from my dream school, which I got into anyways. I figured that if I didn't get in it was because I didn't fully take advantage of the opportunities I got which were more than most people's on this planet. It's more the sense of fairness that is the essence of America that prompts me to be against AA.</p>

283

<p>"You still not have addressed the fact that when looking at positions of power, places of influence, etc, minority representation is still lacking. I have an older brother who works for a fortune 500 company which I shall leave nameless at the moment, and he told me that in the entire company only about 5% of the population is black. In a country where the percentages of African Americans in excess of 12% this just is not right. Furthermore, I assure you.. do some research and you will find that across the board, in top institutions, companies, and organizations.. this representation is equal to if not less than that 5% I just stated."</p>

<p>Not all hurts can be resolved in so short a time period. Certainly as this generation hits the workplace those percentages will increase steadily. The real problem is that, despite their success, institutions such as the NAACP and the Urban League don't hold the black entrepreneur up as a role model, instead pumping up Lebron James (I love him, but seriously). This disenfranchises kids into thinking their future is in pro ball when 99% of the time, it really isn't. It discourages the youths from focusing on essential schoolwork. And the sad thing is the NAACP in particular should be at the FOREFRONT of promoting better schoolwork, but they're failing miserably.</p>

284

<p>CollectivSynergy,</p>

<p>woa! That’s quite a statement for you to say that the NAACP promotes athleticism more than entrepreneurship, more than academics, family values, moral values, political ambition, etc... I would like for you to justify this statement before you try to use if for your argument.</p>

<p>Research the NAACP, the National Urban League, the hundreds of community improvement local organizations, Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Inc., Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity Inc., Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Inc., Community Church's, and the list goes on. These organizations do not put athletes at the forefront. </p>

<p>I find absolutely no validity in your statement. That was just outright ignorant, and I hope you or anyone else actually believes that. If someone whats to question anything I have written, feel free.. but approach it as an academic.</p>

285

<p>I will say the first thing you said however is correct. It takes time, and AA has to be given time.</p>

286

<p>That's not even an opinion I originated, I just went to a barbeque on Sunday with a few of the most prominent African Americans in our community and that was their consensus (granted, they were far from a majority). But what they said made a lot of sense, though I forget the examples and specifics they used.</p>

287

<p>
[QUOTE]
proletariat, I understand where you're coming from, and i know someone has already said this too you, but have you ever thought of the fact that schools would like to diversify their student bodies.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I've addressed this earlier. Many (I would not say all) African-Americans have lost a connection with their heritage. Therefore, the ones that haven't would still keep all of the benefits because it would be apparent in essays or ECs. Plus, those who are most likely to benefit from AA would be the least likely to have retained this. Diversity comes from a difference in viewpoints, which can be found by using socioeconomically based affirmative action.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Some schools need to present a good image, and catering to just simply underprivileged kids, most of whom would be white, would not help that image.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Yes, but the white underprivileged kids can add diversity too, but a different kind. Of course, that wouldn't help their image, but keep in mind that the percentage of blacks in the population below the poverty line is greater than that of the total population. I don't think that any school should be banned from using affirmative action if they want to. I'm just saying that it's often unethical to use it.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Face it, ethnicity/race plays a big factor in America, and it should because it is who we are. To say that things need to be colorblind is to say that who a person is does not matter. It's up to all of us to figure out if race will play a negative role or a positive one.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>No person is defined by their race.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
The main reason Black people (and there are other minorities, but I don't want to call out any 'cause I don't know enough about their histories) are in the situation they are in is, undoubtedly, because of this country's terrible racial history. There is no argument in that, if you listen in class you know that. So it is the duty of the government to take care of the problem Black people have with education. You heard the Democratic candidates talk about it last Thursday and you'll hear the Republicans in September at Morgan U. Uplifting minorities in America is a main issue and can even sway the vote in elections. So race is a big deal. That is why there is racial AA, and not simply income AA. Problems is the US are not even that simple to use income AA.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Well, besides URMs being oppressed, Asians have also been oppressed. People v. Hall, United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind, the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Gentleman's Agreement, Takao Ozawa v. United States, the Asiatic Exclusion League, the Japanese internment, the Jap hunting liscenses, California Alien Land Laws, the "coolie invasion" hype, the Anti-Coolie Act of 1862, the San Francisco Vigilance Movement, racism against Arabs, and the Balbir Singh Sodhi murder are some interesting topics to study about.</p>

<p>Also, there were the white trash families of the South, whom even the slaves looked down upon.</p>

<p>I don't doubt that except maybe Hispanics, any URM was discriminated against as much as the former list, but I don't think anybody can use this as an excuse now, except maybe a few families who live in one of the places, especially in the South, where racism is more-than-subtly rampant.</p>

<p>Even if it was, I don't see how affirmative action helps the large amounts of poor URMs.You've heard enough about this from me; I won't repeat this over and over again.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Luckily, we have individuals like Ward Connerly, Chief Justice John Roberts, and Associate Justice Clarence Thomas to help us.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Ironically, this (besides maybe drug use and, despite the fact that conservatives generally support it, throwing kittens in a woodchipper) may be the only issue on which I agree with Mr. Thomas.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
The color of someone's skin does matter, it will always matter.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>It shouldn't, and it doesn't have to, in college admissions. It DOES matter in real life, the reason being that America is, essentially, a melting pot. However, diversity is SO much more than just race. People are people, whether you like it or not. I'm probably just as genetically different from a fellow Asian, say a Chinese person, as I am from you.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Is there not an 80% chance that the first one I pick would be blue as opposed to the 20% chance of it being green. Because there are more blue balls there will always be higher chance of me picking out the blue balls. Do you get it now.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>That's true, but if the 80% and the 20% are in the same situation, they should have an equal chance of being picked in the same way that analogy shows.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.cbpp.org/povertytables.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cbpp.org/povertytables.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>A better analogy would be this: Imagine you have a bag of underprivileged marbles. About 60 (which is greater than it would be if you use the data from <a href="http://www.cbpp.org/povertytables.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cbpp.org/povertytables.pdf&lt;/a>, which gives roughly 52-48, not counting Asians, from 2001 data) of these are white or Asian, 40 are URMs. They are in a pool of marbles representing college that is split 90-10. There is also a pool of people representing America that is 79-21 (based on U.S. Census Bureau, Asians and Whites vs. all others <a href="http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t1/tab01.pdf)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t1/tab01.pdf)&lt;/a>. Do you not agree that if you randomly select 20 marbles from the 60-40 pool, you are likely to make the 90-10 pool more similar to the 79-21 pool by percentage? It would make it theoretically 102-18, or when reduced to 100 total, 85-15. Of course, this is exaggerated to the point where it would probably and rightly ruled unconstitutional, but it's showing results better than those of racial AA while also picking those most likely to add to diversity. After all, nothing says a black person is worth more than a white person, except maybe Al Sharpton.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
You know, in reading an article someone posted on another thread some time ago, some top schools probably do cater to underprivileged well.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>The top colleges do already have some socioeconomically based AA, but I say they get rid of racial AA and expand the former.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
And I said to respect skin color, just as I would respect yours, not hate it.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Or you could respect the person instead of the skin color.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
They literally seek them out because, for some of these kids, like me, they are not in the situation or atmosphere that they would have the opportunity to know that there are schools out there that would accept and help fund their education.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>They could just take the initiative to find them. Every race (except maybe the white people, other than "white trash" (no offense) families) has this problem, and every race has some people solve it, with some having a high rate of incidence than others. There is no real excuse except a lack of resources (poverty, again, a socioeconomic problem).</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Many (but not all) CC members do not understand the necessity for AA in American society because they live in sheltered environments. They do not see or choose to acknowledge the abject poverty in most black communities and how AA educates blacks to overcome the situation. They only see how AA "disadvantages" them. To them AA takes their dream college away because a less qualified URM takes their spot.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I can see the implication that by "many", you mean those who are against affirmative action. Well, I don't know about anybody else, but in my defense:
1. I do not live in a sheltered environment. There is a severe lack of poverty here, but this is not a homogenous cookie-cutter lawn community. Plus there's Highland Park and Detroit right next door.
2. The fact that very few of the African-Americans here, who themselves are numerous, are poor, is justification for my statement that most rich, privileged African-Americans are similar to rich, privileged white kids.
3. I have quite a while to go before applying to college. I have little worry of what some may term "Black Kid Stealing My Spot Syndrome", and I know that the aforemention syndrome does not exist in sane people and was created to divert attention from the logical arguments our side is making. Essentially, this is an ad hominem argument because it's personal and irrevelant.
4. I'd like to know how AA educates URMs to get into college.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
AA seeks to level the playing field between races in order to allow all races an equal opportunity to compete in the academic world, professional world, and socioeconomic world.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Leveling the playing field is a worthy goal, but racial AA is almost worthless in this respect. A more efficient way to do this would be better education before college.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Secondly, diversity is important, whether you want to believe it or not.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Yes, but I've made an argument that AA does not help much to increase diversity.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Economic principles show that diversity in a company is essential for profit maximization.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>What principles? How important or essential? What type of diversity? Was the study correlational?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
This requires implementing marketing schemes which appeal to minorities, having minorities on board in their organizations, and recognizing that continuing to ignore the importance of minorities will not in the long run, be best for the business.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Yes, that's true, but it is amazing that Asians haven't been mentioned for this entire post.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Get to really know more of the minority students at your school and don't assume that they are all privileged.

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</p>

<p>Yes, most of those who get into top schools are privileged, at least at my school. I have yet to see one of the poorer minority kids at my school get into a top college, and I know more than a few. And I honestly doubt you have a ton more experience in this than I do as you imply, unless you go traveling around the country asking people their race, income level, and future college.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I would have to tell you that that’s not true.

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</p>

<p>I posted my fair share of links and stats earlier. Let's see yours.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
It is hard to see until you are personally affected by it.

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</p>

<p>I have been personally affected by it. I just tend to disassociate myself with those who really don't like Asian people (purportedly because we're nerdy terrorists who are taking all their jobs).</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
And for the last time, RACE IS A FACTOR BECASUE SCHOOLS NEED MORE MINORITIES IN THEIR STUDENT BODIES! There are enough white people in schools. Most of the impoverished population is white, so if they were to just look at a person's income then they would be just enrolling more and more white people which they do not need. What don't you understand about that?!!

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>But does AA help them achieve that end? Also, the second half of that paragraph/rant seemed pretty racist to me. See my marble analogy above.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Being Black and coming from a school that is not so known, puts a person at a disadvantage.

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</p>

<p>I come from a school that is virtually unknown. Does this put me at a disadvantage? No. And don't you dare make a remark about me being privileged, ignoring the conditions of the poor, and taking the good things in my life for granted. I've heard enough of it, and I certainly wouldn't call it an argument.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
You use the term “whites” too generally.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I noticed this too. I brought up the "white trash" (once again, no offense; I'm just using the only real recognized term) people quite often, and I must say, there are a lot of these people but they certainly aren't trash.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I have almost no interest, however, in equality of result.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Exactly. Everyone should have the same chances, and they should have the option to use them. The best way to increase equality of opportunity or to counter inequality of opportunity are extra education before college and socioeconomic affirmative action.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
But a school, whose goal is to diversify, will choose the URM(I'm talking about the underrepresented ones) over the overrepresented applicant. And they do have the freedom to do that.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Yes, they do have the freedom, and I don't suggest taking it away, but it's wrong to use it. There is nothing to say that the URM will add more diversity UNLESS they show poverty, signalling a poor environment, or their ECs and essays show that they have maintained close ties with their culture, in which case they would have something to contribute to the college.</p>

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<p>CollectivSynergy, just because things are better, (and they are but not good) does not mean traces of this country's racial history don't exist and they do need to be compensated for.
And how are whites and Asians being discriminated against? Aren't they like the two biggest ethnicity groups in colleges? </p>

<p>And I agree with liltrig, you need some backup to make that strong statement about the NAACP and the Urban League</p>

289

<p>
[quote]

Ironically, this (besides maybe drug use and, despite the fact that conservatives generally support it, throwing kittens in a woodchipper) may be the only issue on which I agree with Mr. Thomas.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I share a similar feeling.</p>

<p>I completely disagreed with Justice Thomas's ruling in the case involving a prisoner who was given incorrect information regarding his appeal date by a judge.</p>

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<p>"Also, there were the white trash families of the South, whom even the slaves looked down upon."
don't be too quick to say that. Even they were allowed, and did, lynch Black people</p>

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<p>"I come from a school that is virtually unknown. Does this put me at a disadvantage? No. And don't you dare make a remark about me being privileged, ignoring the conditions of the poor, and taking the good things in my life for granted. I've heard enough of it, and I certainly wouldn't call it an argument."</p>

<p>By "school" I meant university.
Asians and whites are not hurt by AA. I still fail to see how they are. Asians in fact are the biggest beneficiaries of AA. There are a lot of Asians in university across the country and there aren't even that many Asians in this country compared to Blacks and Hispanics. </p>

<p>Please do not assume that most Black kids in college are privileged. Just because they don't fit your definition of "Black". First, find out their household incomes, then you can make that judgment. Besides the average income of the white middle class family is 17 times greater than that of the Black middle class family</p>

<p>And yes color is always going to matter. Race is a factor when defining a person.</p>

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<p>The term was coined by black workers in Baltimore. For much of American history, African-Americans were almost the exclusive users of the term.</p>

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<p>"Asians in fact are the biggest beneficiaries of AA. There are a lot of Asians in university across the country and there aren't even that many Asians in this country compared to Blacks and Hispanics."</p>

<p>Asians are penalized by AA. They're in large numbers of uni students in SPITE of AA not because of it. I find it hard to believe that there are people who don't know this.</p>

<p>"And yes color is always going to matter. Race is a factor when defining a person."</p>

<p>Then you're a racist, pure and simple.</p>

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<p>And I don't blame them for that, it must hard for them to accept people who would lynch them, bar them from entering certain place, terrorize their neighborhoods, and keep them out of schools. I don't think they were thinking about whose feelings they would hurt when they coined the term "white trash".
After all, the "white trash" were still considered more important in America than the richest Black person.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
Did white immigrants have their men lynched, women raped, and entire race subjugated by slavery and Jim Crow?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>See application to Asian people in earlier post.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Being white whether you are poor or not is a permanent privilege in it's self. Ask why and I'll give you many reasons.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I know you'll cite racism as the number one reason. I don't know what it's like where you live, but here, the white people are essentially afraid, and rightly so, to insult others based on race. However, many other minorities (including, yes, Asians, though hopefully not me) do either joke or make serious statements disparaging white people.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Back in Jim Crow times, poor whites, in some areas, were excused by the law to terrorize black communities.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I don't want to hear about Jim Crow times. This is NOW. During the early 1900s, Asians couldn't vote, come into the country, become naturalized citizens, testify in court, or intermarry, even with African-Americans or Native Americans, who were also oppressed. This includes East and South Asian people. There was also the Rock Springs massacre, which wasn't discovered until 1995, in which 28 Chinese people were killed because they tried to get the same wages as the white people, and the Chinese massacre of 1871, in which more than 10 percent of the Chinese population of the city was killed. Not to mention the Issaquah, Seattle, and Tacoma riots, all Anti-Asian riots. There were also the cases and laws mentioned in my really long post on page 20.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Obviously, not all whites are rich and not all blacks are poor, but the majority of them are rich and poor, respectively.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>About 25% of african-americans are below the poverty line (see link from two posts ago). Very few people in general are rich unless you compare us to Third World countries.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
^but how does inceased enrollment harm Asians?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>That was right after California banned AA in public colleges.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I can see where you are basing your ideas off of when you make your opinions on AA, however as stated earlier what you are failing to focus on is AA goal to increase the enrollment of Under Represented Minorities.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>You fail to note that there are different types of affirmative action, obviously showing that the goal was not to increase just racial diversity. It was to increase diversity in general. The question is whether affirmative action is the method that best and most efficiently balances freedom, order, and equality in college admissions, or in all fields in which it is used. I say no.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Society is this way because of history, and frankly history has shaped the attitudes, socioeconomic positions, privileges, of the black society as a whole.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>And it's partially my job to fix this? Since when does government, which is composed of all people, have any responsibility to deal with this? Frankly, I'd be scared of a government that tries to fix everybody's problems. A government can't fix many cultural problems, but it can screw itself over trying.</p>

<p>Essentially, this is just a weak way of saying that we should compensate for the past. Drosselmeier would be ashamed; we need him back here to liven up this debate.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I will say the first thing you said however is correct. It takes time, and AA has to be given time.

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</p>

<p>I think that what he meant was that the problem was given too little time to fix itself and that AA was really just a way to shove this down our throats too quickly, before we had time to chew it properly.</p>

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<p>
[QUOTE]
By "school" I meant university.
[/QUOTE</p>

<p>Oh. That was unclear. Sorry.</p>

<p>[QUOTE]
Asians and whites are not hurt by AA. I still fail to see how they are.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>For every person accepted, many are rejected. AA increases the amount of URMs accepted without discretion about socioeconomic status. </p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Asians in fact are the biggest beneficiaries of AA. There are a lot of Asians in university across the country and there aren't even that many Asians in this country compared to Blacks and Hispanics.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I don't care if you think the following statement is racist; I think it's true. Asians as a whole or an average (not necessarily individuals, of course) generally are more motivated, due to culture, than the other races in America. Hispanics are rising fast, though.</p>

<p>I'll quote CollectivSynergy:

[Quote]
Asians are penalized by AA. They're in large numbers of uni students in SPITE of AA not because of it. I find it hard to believe that there are people who don't know this.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Please do not assume that most Black kids in college are privileged.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>No, but most people in general, black kids inclusive, at top colleges are privileged. </p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Just because they don't fit your definition of "Black".

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I never said anybody wasn't a true black, or wasn't black enough like Al Sharpton used to say about Obama. I'm just saying that most of them contribute just as much diversity as the average white kid because few have actually maintained ties to the African culture. My definition of "African-American" is "an American of African descent". Pretty inclusive.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Besides the average income of the white middle class family is 17 times greater than that of the Black middle class family

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Ha! I'd like to see you back this up!</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
And yes color is always going to matter. Race is a factor when defining a person.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Race is going to matter only because it enriches the American culture. However, it never constrains a person to a definition.</p>

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<p>
[Quote]
During the early 1900s, Asians couldn't vote, come into the country, become naturalized citizens, testify in court, or intermarry, even with African-Americans or Native Americans, who were also oppressed. This includes East and South Asian people. There was also the Rock Springs massacre, which wasn't discovered until 1995, in which 28 Chinese people were killed because they tried to get the same wages as the white people, and the Chinese massacre of 1871, in which more than 10 percent of the Chinese population of the city was killed. Not to mention the Issaquah, Seattle, and Tacoma riots, all Anti-Asian riots. There were also the cases and laws mentioned in my really long post on page 20.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Sorry, this was an incomplete thought. What I meant is that we haven't been set back by this, even though it's the same thing others complain about.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
For every person accepted, many are rejected. AA increases the amount of URMs accepted without discretion about socioeconomic status.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Another incomplete thought. What this means is that if more URMs are accepted, more non-URMs are rejected.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Essentially, this is just a weak way of saying that we should compensate for the past. Drosselmeier would be ashamed; we need him back here to liven up this debate.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>In case you don't know, Drosselmeier was strongly pro-AA, and a very good arguer.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
And it's partially my job to fix this? Since when does government, which is composed of all people, have any responsibility to deal with this? Frankly, I'd be scared of a government that tries to fix everybody's problems. A government can't fix many cultural problems, but it can screw itself over trying.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>What this is supposed to mean is that society can try to increase diversity to enrich the lives of individuals within it, as socioeconomic AA would do, but it shouldn't (I wouldn't say can't, as that wouldn't be true) try to fix something in an inefficient way as it has tried to for some time.</p>

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<p>Racism is wrong. Let's stop doing it! That means you, HYPS!!</p>

<p>Why does my kid have a race question on his common app????</p>

<p>What business is it of these idiots to know what race he is? All they should concern themselves with is his grades, scores, recommendations and essays. Why is race even part of this equation?</p>

<p>Also, why do these idiots in college admissions have any business whatsoever in demanding to know what colleges our kids' parents attended, what jobs they hold, what degrees they earned???? That is a huge invasion of privacy. Judge the kid by the kid and leave the folks out of this. Please!!</p>

<p>I'm sick of white liberal guilt on the part of those who really were advantaged by the old system several decades ago extracting all this stupid unfair pain out of white (or Asian) middle or upper middle class kids who have worked their tails off. Of course the priviledged few who make these policy decisions have the legacy heft and connections to get their own kids into something elite. No worries there!!</p>

<p>Yeah to the Supreme Court. I hope this ball rolls and becomes an avalanche.</p>

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[quote]
Asians in fact are the biggest beneficiaries of AA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please reconcile your statement with UC Berkeley data. Between 1996 and 1998, Asian enrollment at Berkeley increased. In fact, Asians, including Filipinos, are the only group that saw increased undergraduate admissions at Berkeley as a result of Proposition 209, the initiative that forbade the consideration of race in admissions. White enrollment actually dropped.</p>

<p>So much for the voters of California voting for "white privilege."</p>

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[quote]
Asians in fact are the biggest beneficiaries of AA.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's like saying that gravity doesn't exist. It's absolutely absurd, and yes, as fabrizio said, you have absolutely no data to back that claim up. Asians are, in actual fact, racially discriminated against by affirmative action. If you support affirmative action, you also support racial discrimination. Defend it all you want, but that's the fact, and it's undeniable.</p>

<p>Anyway, for all your rhetoric, have any of you supporters of affirmative action ever actually been to dirt-poor, largely black areas? I live in an affluent, majority-white suburb on Long Island. That said, however, my dad works in Bedford-Stuyvesant, an area of New York City which is the ghetto. The vast majority of people living there are black and poor. I've been there on numerous occasions, and it's not a place you want to be. The thing is, though, the problem there clearly is not racism or past discrimination; the problem is that the people living there simply don't work. They literally have block parties 24/7. They hang out on the street with cars blaring rap music. They deal drugs for the little money they need, as their apartments are taxpayer-subsidized. Most of them are on welfare. Murders and drug-related shootings are common. My dad's hired a number of ex-felons who've beaten their girlfriends, killed people, e.t.c. How can anyone blame white people for their misfortunes? It defies logic.</p>