Supreme Court: Race-based High School Admission Illegal

Pre-College Issues High School Life
301

<p>I am hearing all this random nonsense about diversity/identity and I wanted to clarify the debate a little bit by asking a few questions.</p>

<p>Do you want people out there to identify you and give you characteristics based on your race? On the other hand, would you prefer people to completely ignore your race and understand your personal characteristics?</p>

<p>In short, do you want to be known as <em>insert name</em> or as a member of <em>insert race</em> </p>

<p>Remember, if you are characterized as <em>insert race</em>, you will be assumed to have the stereotypical characteristics of <em>insert race</em></p>

302

<p>
[quote]
Do you want people out there to identify you and give you characteristics based on your race? On the other hand, would you prefer people to completely ignore your race and understand your personal characteristics?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's another good point. This is the United States. In the United States, we don't (or shouldn't) self-identify primarily as members of a race, but as individuals. Thus, the failings or achievements of a race should not be conferred unto individuals, and members of the race in question should not be assumed to have the perceived characteristics of the race at large.</p>

303

<p>I end my part in this discussion by just saying to all of you...watch Freedom Writers. Learn something. It was a good debate. Bye.</p>

304

<p>
[quote]
I end my part in this discussion by just saying to all of you...watch Freedom Writers. Learn something. It was a good debate. Bye.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Translation: I acknowledge that I got pwned. :p</p>

305

<p>^no, it's more like she realized that she's just repeating herself over and over and you all are still not getting it. So what's the point, there's no use arguing online.</p>

306

<p>"I think that what he meant was that the problem was given too little time to fix itself and that AA was really just a way to shove this down our throats too quickly, before we had time to chew it properly."</p>

<p>Yes proletariat got what I meant.</p>

<p>"I end my part in this discussion by just saying to all of you...watch Freedom Writers. Learn something. It was a good debate. Bye."</p>

<p>"^no, it's more like she realized that she's just repeating herself over and over and you all are still not getting it. So what's the point, there's no use arguing online."</p>

<p>Hardly, waitingforjuly21. In fact it's far more annoying for the ones arguing against whatisinaname because she disregards points made against her. She proposes that people should see her skin and pity her. When asked whether she thinks of others in terms of their country's/race's heritage instead of who that person really is, she never responded. Because of course she doesn't - you have to be an unbelievable racist and bigot to think in such a way. She accuses others of being racist when she's guilty of the very CORE of racism - discriminating and judging based on RACE, and wants others to judge her in that manner. Funny how the horse ends up behind the cart, isn't it?</p>

307

<p>I to give up on this argument. Their are just some things you can't change in someones mind. You've been raised to think one way and thats the way your going to think. </p>

<p>All I have to say is honestly.... I wish people would open their minds up and not fill their heads with stereotypes.</p>

<p>aristotle1990,
The things you have said are a great reflection on your personality and the views you have. It is these type of generalizations that continue the racist thoughts here in America. You my claim that racism is over, but it isn't. I promise you, if you met me I already know what stereotypes you would have in your head. You would group me as lazy, dangerous individual and treat me as such. Have I been to those neighborhoods? I live there. Do you know the real dynamics of those neighborhoods. No. You cant. I wish people like you would be able to get out of their sheltered lives and actually experience real situations. Just because you have been to black neighborhoods doesn't not make you sheltered because while your there your acting off of your prejudices. But really... the things you have said are racist, and I have to deal with that all of my life. Trust me, your not the only one. It's funny how people reveal themselves though.</p>

<p>There is a separation in society between those you have and those who have not.........</p>

<p>Oh and finally. For those of you who are still in High School. Do not comment on the make up of black people in college. College is not high school, and people come from everywhere. Just because you see the black people in your sheltered high school go to top colleges doesn't mean that all of them came from where you come from. College is different.....</p>

308

<p>"College is not high school, and people come from everywhere. Just because you see the black people in your sheltered high school go to top colleges doesn't mean that all of them came from where you come from. College is different....."</p>

<p>True, but Aristotle also posted a link which clearly showed how the vast majority of URMs in top colleges are privileged. He was not just talking based on personal opinion, there was a study which he cited - I'm surprised at the hypocrisy here. You say he can't be convinced, but neither can you because you don't read what other people write.</p>

309

<p>liltrig06, you can't have it both ways. you demand both respect for your individuality and pity for your racial background. no matter what anyone says, either choose to be yourself or not.</p>

310

<p>@liltrig06</p>

<p>LOL. It's kind of funny how you're calling ME a racist when YOU'RE the one who wants to be seen as special because of your race. Isn't that, um, racist?</p>

<p>
[quote]
You would group me as lazy, dangerous individual and treat me as such.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would? Wow. You seem to know me better than I know myself ;). Of course, that's completely untrue. I wouldn't make any judgments about you until I actually experienced your character. Actually, I can make a few judgments about you right now:</p>

<ol>
<li>You're clearly intelligent. Anyone seriously debating on this forum is.</li>
<li>You're very obviously privileged, whether it's from your parents being smart, or whether it's from going to an elite high school. The fact is, ghetto kids don't do what you're doing. They don't argue on online forums. Many of them hardly use a computer (let alone possess one), and they certainly don't articulate their posts with clarity as you do.</li>
</ol>

<p>One can make accurate judgments about people at first sight. If one sees people hanging out on the sidewalk, drinking beer at 11 AM, and doing absolutely nothing, there's clearly a problem. It's very safe to say that those people are lazy and (probably) dangerous, regardless of their race. Simply because I've indicated that a neighborhood is both lazy and black doesn't mean that I think that all black people are lazy and poor and dangerous.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's funny how people reveal themselves though.

[/quote]

Yeah, it is. It's really odd how some people glorify neighborhoods which are so clearly horrible just because the neighborhoods consist largely of members of their own race. I'll give you an example; I'm Jewish. Though Jews aren't united by race, they are strongly united by religion, and it's almost a racial thing (we're "one nation"). Anyway, there are a number of neighborhoods in Israel which are dirt-poor. They're filled entirely with ultra-religious Jews who walk around studying Torah and have no concern for what's actually going on around them. Quite correspondingly, they're poor and largely uneducated (in a secular manner). I've been to homes around my own community which are dirty, squalid, and run down, because the man of household refuses to let the woman work, and he mostly prays and studies Talmudic law all day. I have no problem denouncing these people for wasting their time and bringing poverty upon themselves and their families, even though both they and I are European, Ashkenazic Jews. </p>

<p>Oh yeah, and P.S.,
[quote]
the things you have said are racist

[/quote]
Especially when you assume that people who oppose affirmative action are in fact racists.</p>

<p>:)</p>

311

<p>But he's right, Aristotle and you've just proved that with your post. People live in the "ghetto", they're not "ghetto". Just because a person goes to school and can argue a case does not mean they're privileged. You ever heard of Ben Carson, yea he's from a poor Black background and he is very, as you would say "articulate". Please don't pass judgment on people you don't know. And you did do that in your post about "ghetto children". Your's is in fact a sad case. Wait until you get to college and learn something. Hopefully you'll open your mind wide enough. </p>

<p>And he said that your comments are racist. Not your stance on AA. In fact I wouldn't call them racist, i would probably just call them rude and insulting towards people who do live in the projects. In fact I bet you would say the same things about a poor white neighborhood.</p>

<p>I'm throwing in the towel after this post as well because you all are hopeless. I pray you all grow some, go to college, and then make judgments on AA</p>

312

<p>
[quote]
People live in the "ghetto", they're not "ghetto"

[/quote]

Semantics.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Just because a person goes to school and can argue a case does not mean they're privileged.

[/quote]

It usually does. Most people from poor, underprivileged communities have never even posted in a forum before.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You ever heard of Ben Carson, yea he's from a poor Black background and he is very, as you would say "articulate".

[/quote]

What's your point? I don't see how this bolsters your argument. Of course there are people from poor backgrounds who end up in high places. However, most people who do what he does are from privileged backgrounds, and there are very few people from these neighborhoods who can write decent essays and argue competently in writing.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hopefully you'll open your mind wide enough.

[/quote]

To support outright racial preference? I don't see how that's "opening my mind wide enough."</p>

<p>
[quote]
In fact I bet you would say the same things about a poor white neighborhood.

[/quote]

I would, but again, I don't see how it's insulting to say that people who drink beer early in the morning and don't work are lazy. Show me a largely white trailer park, and I'll show you lazy people in greater proportion than in richer neighborhoods, black or white. Are we supposed to coddle people who don't work, do drugs, and commit crimes? There are Asian, white, black, and Hispanic criminals, and I don't see how criticizing the type is racist. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And he said that your comments are racist.

[/quote]

Please explain why criticizing people who happen to be black is racist in the slightest.</p>

313

<p>I'm amazed on the many ad hominem attacks that are irrelevant to any arguments made that are on this page. First of all, there are whatsinaname and liltrigs's accusations of being sheltered and closed-minded (an accusation neither can prove, and after all, they might very well be the closed-minded ones) and also Trackbabi17, who essentially says that because she believes many points that aristotle1990 has made are inaccurate or can be interpreted by some as mildly racist (I'm not denying this is true), the entire argument is wrong, as shown by this statement:</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
But he's right, Aristotle and you've just proved that with your post.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>And then there's liltrig06's completely unbacked statement:</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
You would group me as lazy, dangerous individual and treat me as such.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Essentially, we should stop making personal attacks and get back to the real argument.</p>

314

<p>"liltrig06, you can't have it both ways. you demand both respect for your individuality and pity for your racial background. no matter what anyone says, either choose to be yourself or not."</p>

<p>raviwolf says it best. Sadly, this applies to all three of the main pro-AA posters, whatisinaname, Trackibabi17 and liltrig06. Hypocrisy and self-contradictions run rampant it seems. </p>

<p>"I pray you all grow some, go to college, and then make judgments on AA"</p>

<p>Done so, doing so, have done so. Is that it? Your parting words seem to echo behind that "I know more than you" smirk which is misplaced both because you don't know more than anyone here and this is a forum for intelligent discussions.</p>

315

<p>In the Chief Justice's majority opinion, he tells it like it is:</p>

<p>"The way to end racial discrimination, is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."</p>

<p>It can't get any easier to understand than that.</p>

316

<p>Let me ask; how are people misconstruing my comments as racist? I've made it quite clear that if I were to visit a dirt-poor white community (i.e., a trailer park) in which there was no work ethic (and I'm sure that many such communities exist), I'd criticize its residents as much as I'm criticizing residents of dirt-poor majority black communities (white and black alike). I've already criticized certain poor largely Jewish communities in Israel and elsewhere, and that doesn't make me a racist (and again, I'm Jewish). Not all desperately poor neighborhoods are the result of a lack of work ethic, but many are. I brought up the example of Bedford Stuyvesant as an anecdote meant to illustrate the point that it's not racism that's keeping down the blacks in that community, but their lack of willpower to improve their situation.</p>

<p>There. Happy now?</p>

317

<p>I think what they're referring to is that you say that everybody in Bedford-Stuyvesant (as one example) is lazy, whereas you could not directly know that. However, I do appreciate the point of the example (that one of the reasons for a low percentage of URMs in top colleges is that they are generally less likely to be motivated).</p>

318

<p>Basically what I think they mean is that they're misconstruing your attack on the people of a certain neighborhood as an attack on the race of those people. It makes sense that they should think this even though the viewpoint is nonsensical because many of them see race as the defining characteristic of a person, as evidenced by earlier posts.</p>

<p>By the way, we might as well stop arguing. All of them have quit. That is, unless Drosselmeier joins, and he ought to. He's one of the few Pro-AA people with real arguments.</p>

319

<p>abrizio,
I meant that the discrimination towards blacks during the Jim Crow era was by far more severe than discrimination towards white immigrants. AA helps blacks and other underrepresented minorities because they were harmed the most. Yes, Jewish people (and other white immigrants, like the Irish) were discriminated against, but are they the poorest people in this country? Does a majority of their ancestors live in squalor and attend sub par schools? No. But unfortunately the ancestors of blacks do, partly due to the Jim Crow era in the South and the de facto racism in the North. And stating that "we are not talking about Jim Crow, we are talking about NOW" is ignorant because the hundred years of Jim Crow partially caused the problems in black communities. Blacks could not attend white schools that offered more resources and an overall better education. Education paves roads for success in life. Without this blacks were not able to improve themselves or their families. This problem was passed on to the next generation. </p>

<p>Yes, I know about the Mary Phagan case but that is irrelevant to the point. One Jewish person lynched cannot be compared to the thousands of blacks killed in the same era. As I said before, AA has its numerous flaws, but the positive points overcome the negative parts.</p>

320

<p>koolmaria139,</p>

<p>I do not contest that “the discrimination towards blacks during the Jim Crow era was by far more severe than discrimination towards white immigrants.”</p>

<p>Thankfully, the Jim Crow era is a thing of the past. Correcting its legacy requires hard work. Racial preferences are a cheap way out of a serious problem. They benefit the redemptive liberals, whose ranks are decreasing due to age and retirement, far more than the groups they intend to benefit.</p>

<p>Whatever the problems are, they need to be addressed directly.</p>