<p>koolmaria139, there is an inherent problem with affirmative action. this form of counter-discrimination today helps only the richest african americans get into selective colleges while creating a false impression that the entire african-american race is being helped. i don't think anyone in this forum would disagree with my belief that the admissions process should take into consideration economic conditions in which a child has been brought up in. This would, as you said it earlier, help correct previous abuses inflicted on the african-american race because african americans have a lower average income than their caucasian counterparts (THIS IS A FACT, NOT A RACIST STATEMENT). However, it would NOT help those african-americans who have already dug themselves out of the predicaments the rest of members of their race face. Furthermore, such an wealth-based system would help out the lower middle class white people, who have been as shortchanged as anyone by the current system. Post if you find any faults in my reasoning or if you see a need for additions.</p>
<p>some supporting documentation for the income claim</p>
<p>So you guys are saying that a rich black applicant should be assessed the same as a a white applicant ? It seems like a good idea in theory but then wouldn't admissions officers have to consider the economic situation of white and asian applicant in the same light? If you look at almost every top schools' admissions page, you will find that admissions is "need blind". Whether or not you are admitted will have noting to do with your parent's paycheck. So how can this economic system for blacks work? Can ya'll please elaborate?</p>
<p>Rich blacks make up such a small percentage of the population; so we are talking about a minority here. Yes,these few blacks (the applicant's parents I mean) were able to overcome racism. But whose to say the potential they could have reached without racism? It does not matter how rich a black person is in this country is, they still went through racism. I respect all your opinions, but it really doesn't matter how much we post/moan/complain about AA it is necessary in Amercan society and will be for maybe the next twenty years. I know it must be frustrating to look at Admit pages and see URM's with lower scores than yours gain admissions in to top colleges. But for every URM that you see on this site, remember what that person's grandparents went through, not being able to get the best education out there and having to settle for sub par schools because of racism.
Like I said before AA has numerous downfalls: blacks are constantly fighting to prove that they gained admission because of what they are accomplished and not what they look like. Like you all have stated rich blacks, gain admission over whites and asians because of the "diversity" factor. These are all unfortunate. AA offers to blacks what was not offered to them before: the chance to get the best education possible. But no system is perfect.</p>
<p>I don't understand. What is wrong with black people getting into college whether they are rich or not? Have you ever considered that they worked hard to get into the school they did? And how come nothing is said about the majority of rich white kids who get in because of their father's name?
And what makes you all think that most of the black people in college are financially privileged? Like someone asked before, have you seen their parents' tax returns or something. These kids are privileged in that, like all of you, they have been persuaded to value and pursue a higher education. </p>
<p>Basically, I do not see what your problem with Black people in college is. There can't be any financial consideration for an applicant unless there is a spot to put one's household income on an application which most schools do not have. They do that on the financial aid app. But they do consider the school and area an applicant comes from and can determine their circumstance through that. For example, kids in the MidWest, who are mostly white, get a lot of consideration in the top schools. Also, if an applicant is white or black or Asian or whatever and they have faced some poor conditions in life they could let this show in their application like in the essay, and I believe that is what a lot of people do. It is not only the SAT score that is considered because that tells the admissions officer nothing about the applicant, but the essay does. </p>
<p>And get off of Black people getting into college. Leave them alone, gosh. They don't go to school they're called dumb, they go to school everyone say they don't deserve it and will fail(which they don't). Have you ever considered that schools want to diversify? With color, because race is a big factor in the US. And they do diversify with religion, home states, nationalities, etc.</p>
<p>"And how come nothing is said about the majority of rich white kids who get in because of their father's name?"</p>
<p>The number of kids admitted because their family donated tens of millions of dollars are VERY VERY few. It doesn't even scratch the surface of the number affected by AA. Also, this is a thread about AA, so of course the focus is on that.</p>
<p>"And what makes you all think that most of the black people in college are financially privileged?"</p>
<p>Someone hasn't read the thread carefully. The statistics that clearly illustrated this were posted by proletariat pages ago.</p>
<p>"Like someone asked before, have you seen their parents' tax returns or something."</p>
<p>Nope. Read above.</p>
<p>"What is wrong with black people getting into college whether they are rich or not?"</p>
<p>Nothing. What proletariat is saying is that AA was meant to help the blacks trapped in crappy inner-city schools, but blacks who attend very strong private/public schools do not need such a boost and in effect get a free boost.</p>
<p>"There can't be any financial consideration for an applicant unless there is a spot to put one's household income on an application which most schools do not have."</p>
<p>Uh... it is not that hard to create another box on the college's app for this. Which would obviously be done if said school were to use such a system.</p>
<p>"And get off of Black people getting into college. Leave them alone, gosh. They don't go to school they're called dumb, they go to school everyone say they don't deserve it and will fail(which they don't)."</p>
<p>Nobody is "on" black people getting into college. Nobody said that was a bad thing. Also, if ANYONE didn't go to college they would earn that label unless there were extenuating circumstances. And the last part of that is another prominent problem with AA.</p>
<p><a href="http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/sat.shtml%5B/url%5D">http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/sat.shtml</a></p>
<p>search for the word "income"</p>
<p>this is proof that sat scores of students vary directly with their families' income</p>
<p>koolmaria:
there only need to be a few thousand rich URMs to mess up the whole system. the spots created by affirmative action number low in magnitude. The existence of small class sizes at top universities means that even with higher percentages of classes being brought in with affirmative action, that results in creation of only small magnitudes of people who are helped, who in fact, shouldn't be helped at all. </p>
<p>the point I am trying to make is that if the program of counter-discrimination is indeed to remedy the effects of slavery and segregation, namely poverty, then the goal is better achieved through wealth-based counter discrimination rather than a race based one.</p>
<p>collegeboard's response</p>
<p>I decided that, because I'm not interested in this topic anymore (it's become a bit bland) until the next big issue flares up, I'll save my time and not post here. You'll see me when the next big racial affirmative action debate comes up, though (which is about the same thing I said when I decided to not post in the Jian Li debate anymore).</p>
<p>amen to that^^^. later, peoples.</p>
<p>
[quote]
collegeboard's response
[/quote]
</p>
<p>why does collegeboard even take a position on this? morons.</p>
<p>Firefox:
"hey lilybbloom, sounds like you believe yourself to be much more ethical, moral, godly, impressive, appropriate, and in general a superior human being to whites and asians, eh?"</p>
<p>Funny, because I am half white and half asian. </p>
<p>"think about why black kids are failing out of schools. is it because white people are stealing their lunch money or creating neo black codes that don't allow them to learn to read? or perhaps it's a result of a black culture that looks down upon "acting white" and celebrates the ghetto attitude?"</p>
<p>you are quite right. 'black culture' does look down on education, in general. it's FOR THAT PRECISE REASON that black kids sometimes need help reaching higher education. do you really think that 'black culture' was produced in isolation? NO. it is a product of history. </p>
<p>and please, don't tell me to take an American history class. That happens to be one of my majors. I've taken plenty.</p>
<p>Oh, please people - don't assume that blacks have a stigma against higher education as an entire ethnic group, any more than people of low SES have such a stigma.</p>
<p>This clearly is a counterexample. It's published in the most prestigious sociology journal in America</p>
<p>
[quote]
For two decades the acting white hypothesis—the premise that black students are driven
toward low school performance because of racialized peer pressure—has served as an
explanation for the black–white achievement gap. Fordham and Ogbu proposed that
black youths sabotage their own school careers by taking an oppositional stance toward
academic achievement. Using interviews and existing data from eight North Carolina
secondary public schools, this article shows that black adolescents are generally
achievement oriented and that racialized peer pressure against high academic
achievement is not prevalent in all schools. The analysis also shows important
similarities in the experiences of black and white high-achieving students, indicating that
dilemmas of high achievement are generalizable beyond a specific group. Typically, highachieving
students, regardless of race, are to some degree stigmatized as “nerds” or
“geeks.” The data suggest that school structures, rather than culture, may help explain
when this stigma becomes racialized, producing a burden of acting white for black
adolescents, and when it becomes class-based, producing a burden of “acting high and
mighty” for low-income whites. Recognizing the similarities in these processes can help
us refocus and refine understandings of the black–white achievement gap.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I didn't say anything about racialized peer pressure but I should have been more specific. When I said that black culture wasn't conducive to higher education (and note that i said 'in general'), I meant that single-parent, low-income, inner-city families, which are very prevalent among Blacks, aren't conducive to higher education for a number of reasons which I'm sure I don't need to explain. </p>
<p>And yes, of course there are many non-Blacks and non-minority groups in general that come from single-parent, low-income, inner-city backgrounds. But the fact is that minorities, especially Blacks, have faced centuries of discrimination in this country, and that has its consequences. Just because there is no longer any institutionalized racism doesn't mean that its consequences don't still abound today.</p>
<p>
[quote]
why does collegeboard even take a position on this? morons.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Give collegeboard a 480 on the critical reading portion of the opinion and a 430 on the math.</p>
<p>""We are disheartened that the Supreme Court rejected the plans ... that several lower courts had held to be constitutional."</p>
<p>Is collegeboard suggesting the lower court's opinions should still count for something?</p>
<p>"We believe there is a compelling national interest to support diversity at all levels of education..."</p>
<p>The court does not disagree. It's a question of how that benefit is achieved.</p>
<p>"The College Board is studying the implications of the Supreme Court's decision and is committed to helping our member institutions understand its effects. We will, of course, continue our work with schools, districts and colleges and universities to promote both equity and excellence."</p>
<p>The reason collegeboard opposes the decision is that it is good for them as a business to do so. Pragmatism rules at collegeboard.</p>
<p>Thanks to Justice Kennedy's partial concurrence and a separate opinion, this decision will ensure that similar cases make their way through the courts again.</p>
<p>Being black, I personally don't give in to "black culture" or peer pressure to "act my color" although I do think black students do, especially at my school, stigmatize themselves to lower standards to uphold their image. All the time people say I'm the "whitest black person" they've ever seen but then again I'm not one to conform to illogical standards and follow stereotypes.</p>
<p>However, at Governor's School this past month one of the classes debated the high school and Affirmative Action issue. What was interesting were the statistics the teacher gave to the students before the debate so they would be well informed. Part of the statistics showed the rank (from highest to lowest) of three ethnic groups on standardized tests (i.e. SAT, ACT): Asian, White, Black. The reason being that many of the black students who take these standardized tests do not have the same vocabulary that some of the asian and white students do growing up, among many other reasons. Many of the students, even after reading this, were still opposed to Affirmative Action. However, they still wanted to have a diverse campus, which seemed somewhat like a catch-22 scenario in my opinion: how can diversity be achieved if minority students don't have some sort of "crutch" (as degrading as that sounds) in admissions? Many statistics also show that, in general, blacks are poorer than whites. This may seem common sensical but still classmates wanted to throw in one story about how they're poor than, for example, me. While I am not poor I am definitely not rich. Unfortunately, Affirmative Action is a human creation with flaws that does help students who do not technically need that "crutch."</p>
<p>Personally, I do not like the idea of creating more "diverse campuses" in high schools ONLY if it is a personal inconvenience to the family (i.e. transportation - one poster mentioned how they were put on the other side of the city). However, gaining an education and being "culturally literate" is more than just strictly academic but is also about acquiring an understanding of different cultures, religions, and ethnic groups, which ultimately can be achieved, to a certain extent, through Affirmative Action.</p>
<p>"Being black, I personally don't give in to "black culture" or peer pressure to "act my color" although I do think black students do, especially at my school, stigmatize themselves to lower standards to uphold their image. All the time people say I'm the "whitest black person" they've ever seen but then again I'm not one to conform to illogical standards and follow stereotypes."</p>
<p>You know, it is possible to be involved in your own culture and be educated at the same time... You don't have to completely shut out your own people's culture just because you do well in school. That's what people of color tend to call a "sell out."</p>
<p>
[quote]
...how can diversity be achieved if minority students don't have some sort of "crutch" (as degrading as that sounds) in admissions?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>What kind of diversity are we talking about here?</p>
<p>I only wish that in his concurrence, Justice Kennedy gave examples of what does and what does not constitute diversity.</p>
<p>Given his previous rulings on race and affirmative action, I highly doubt that he believes the addition of white students or Asian students reduces diversity.</p>
<p>...Too bad many of my friends are black lol I simply don't associated with students who I know personally are smart but still try to act different ways when they're around different people because they're being fake and untrue to themselves. Haha just simply stating what one of my friends said, which makes sense to me. Many people want to base college admissions completely on academics yet colleges are always talking about how diverse their campus is. I simply don't see how a campus can be diverse when 90% of the student body is white or Asian or something because they statistically score higher on standardized tests, have better grades, etc. which is one reason for the advent of Affirmative Action (which does cover different situations besides race lol). I usually don't like to get into debates but this one was interesting :)</p>
<p>Armando, I re-read my post and I STILL don't see where you get the idea of "selling out." I'm sorry I personally don't like to go around with my pants half way down my butt, 10 pounds of jewelry on, and blasting rap music in my car. It's those type things I stray away from in "stereotypical black culture."</p>