suspension due to academic dishonesty

Applying to College
81

<p>"Bealor: Can you not just address one part of my post please? Its the oldest trick in the book here and is really annoying as well as transparent. I would have much more preferred you address the entire post and especially the part about my issues with the comparison of stealing to rape."</p>

<p>It's not a trick. Please stop falsely accusing me of strawmanning you when I'm not. Don't accuse people of using fallacious logic (in the traditional sense) when you don't even know what qualifies. I didn't respond to the rape/cheating comparison because that was entirely irrelevant to that about which I was talking. Why would I respond to something that I don't even mention anywhere else? I took parts of your post that were actually on the topic I was discussing and responded to them.</p>

<p>"To add insult to injury, you even messed up the aforemtnioned trick and wrongly implied that I think students cheat for fun. I was not saying that at all. The implication was instead that these are NORMAL KIDS and they do make mistakes as well as sometimes behave dishonestly when it comes to academics. I'm not supporting the actions and neither would these kids. However, its small fish and they are just that, MISTAKES"</p>

<p>Uh...I never said that. I was responding directly to your trivialization of cheating by claiming that the UVA students cheated, but didn't do anything seriously wrong and were just having a fun time. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was saying that cheaters were having fun by cheating. Rather, I discarded the notion that cheating could be so trivial that college students were just having fun and cheating, which clearly isn't that serious to you according to the post to which I responded. Please don't accuse me of twisting your arguments when your post laid out a pretty clear assumption that I picked up. Again, I do not mean to say that cheating is fun for these people. However, you said that cheaters don't need a character adjustment and are just having a good time. That is also exactly what I said. Again, no strawman.</p>

<p>In addition, you keep up with the idea that cheating is simply a mistake. A mistake is accidentally knocking over a vase. A mistake is grabbing in reflex for your phone after it drops in your car and causing a crash. A mistake is NOT something that is in any way premeditated. In other words, cheating can't be categorized as a simple mistake or accident. You don't "accidentally" cheat, because cheating is not accidental by definition.</p>

<p>"I find it funny the rightful inquisitors in this thread even admit to wrongdoing and have committed the same mistakes in the past (example: stole a pack of pokemon cards?)."</p>

<p>I agree. However, there is a difference between stealing something when you're three and cheating when you're in high school. Someone mentioned brain development, and that's clearly applicable here. However, a person's brain is developed enough by HS to realize that cheating is bad (except in very rare cases, of which I am almost positive the OP is not one).</p>

<p>"I don't know if galoisien or that 3 guy is living in a Waterboy world where what "Mama says" is right and "Mama says people who steal are the DEVIL!!" well sorry but most if not all people I know have made mistakes in their lives."</p>

<p>Again, it's not a mistake. It's at best a grave lapse in judgment. Perhaps I am not as forgiving as you. It is true. I have little tolerance for people who consciously and continually make horrendous choices. For example, going to a party (to which you were invited a month before) where you know there is alcohol, going, drinking, drinking more, and then driving home with inebriated friends. I'm sorry, I have zero sympathy or compassion for this person. Think about all the time they had to make the RIGHT decision. Cheating is exactly the same. There is a conscious thought, and a time period during which you can choose the right thing. If you don't, then it shows a lot about you.</p>

<p>"Comparing such a mistake to rape is very insulting and anyone who believes in such an analogy needs to attend a few seminars or educate themselves more on the subject. Rape should NOT be trivialized in such a manner."</p>

<p>He's not comparing it to rape. You completely misunderstood his argument and YOU are now the one with the giant strawman in front of you. I suggest you reread his posts so that you actually know what you're talking about.</p>

82

<p>You guys are doing a great job honoring the OP's request for personal attacks of himself and of other posters based on baseless extrapolations of his and their moral values and previous actions.</p>

<p>OH NO WAIT!</p>

<p>He asked for an assessment of his chances of being accepted to certain colleges based on a list of statistics and the fact that he has been caught cheating on a test.</p>

<p>My mistake - something must have confused me.</p>

83

<p>
[quote]
Comparing such a mistake to rape is very insulting and anyone who believes in such an analogy needs to attend a few seminars or educate themselves more on the subject. Rape should NOT be trivialized in such a manner.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I chose a strawman example for rhetorical effect. Pardon me. It was just to demonstrate that the idea that "a single incident cannot show a character flaw" was flat out erroneous.</p>

<p>Again, I stress -- if anyone picked up on that -- that rape is <em>not</em> comparable to cheating in terms of magnitude, but I argue rape falls into the same category as cheating (along with a host of the crimes of varying magnitudes) in that both crimes show a character flaw.</p>

<p>I DID NOT COMPARE RAPE TO CHEATING, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. </p>

<p>I chose a counterexample to prove a generalisation wrong. (reductio ad absurdum)</p>

<p>As an example of how a single instance of an antisocial act shows a character flaw, take a child who happens to like picking wings of off live flies, abusing small pets, etc. I say those acts show a character flaw. Those are very small acts -- no humans were hurt. But such acts show an antisocial personality.</p>

<p>Cheating and rape are both antisocial crimes, in that a single display of such crimes implies a character flaw.</p>

<p>Cheating is never merely an error in judgment. </p>

<p>
[quote]
whoa, he never said anything about cheating or stealing being acceptable in his culture.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It was implied because it showed his frog-in-the-well world. "Everyone must have cheated sometime." Well, maybe where he lives. (Or a she? I forgot who made the remark. Anyway.) </p>

<p>In the country I was born, anyway, cheaters are punished severely, to the extent of being publicly caned in front of the whole school. A 3 day suspension is very light compared to that. Cheating is known as a "lower-rank crime".</p>

84

<p>
[quote]
I don't know if galoisien or that 3 guy is living in a Waterboy world where what "Mama says" is right and "Mama says people who steal are the DEVIL!!" well sorry but most if not all people I know have made mistakes in their lives.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Many school authorities in the United States tend to be way too lenient. Where I was born students are raised in a strong culture of discipline. There is strong self-policing (in the form of prefects), and when someone in the top stream is caught cheating, there are shock waves throughout the entire school. As I mentioned before, public caning is a frequent punishment for such an act, and has the same weight as aggravated assault. </p>

<p>Our mother is society, if you want to look at it that way.</p>

<p>Normal people do <em>not</em> cheat. I don't know what makes you think Whoever thinks that way must have suffered being raised in an inferior and decadent culture.</p>

85

<p>Baelor: You seem to think all mistakes are accidental. That is incorrect. Also, why is stealing at 7 and stealing at 16 much different? Where do you draw the line? Are you suppoesd to be all-knowledgable in high school? Are people not allowed to make mistakes that aren't accidental? </p>

<p>Why are some of the best people out there those that have learned from their mistakes (such as experimenting with drugs or have stolen money from their grandparents when they too were in high school).</p>

<p>You guys should all check out the new show "The Moment of Truth" on Fox. You'll get to see what kind of people exist in the real world once you really get to know the average American. </p>

<p>I'm not supporting their actions in any way but people are allowed second chances when they are made at a young age (yes high schoolers aren't full adults yet) and are not that serious.</p>

<p>Galoisien: Normal people DO make mistakes. Go ask anyone. And some of those mistakes include minor cases of cheating especially at a young age. He's not some 40 year old business CEO funneling funds from a top company before its downfall. His actions were wrong and he was punished and maybe he will be further punished when colleges reject him.</p>

<p>Galoisien, if I remember you were complaining about your family and this society not too long ago. To state that other people were raised up in inferior cultures when they simply believe in the morals of Christianity and forgiveness is quite insulting and pathetic. Your anonymity of the message board is your only savior (pun unintended) as I doubt you would make such sweeping controversial statements if we were all in a room together or if we actually knew you and could point our your own errors in the past. </p>

<p>Let he without sin cast the first stone.</p>

86

<p>I believe in forgiveness for antisocial acts after a change in character.</p>

<p>To be "redeemed" in the Christian faith requires a genuine confession, not a ceremonial sorry letter.</p>

<p>Whether or not the American-Christian framework of morality (as opposed to say, a rational/social-contract view of morality, backed up by psychology) is valid is also a different matter. (Note that though I am a Christian myself, I am rather appalled with how meaningless, wealth-driven and bland American Protestantism is becoming; Eastern Orthodoxy is becoming far more appealing.) </p>

<p>
[quote]
Your past posts are filled with brash statements and utter ignorance

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We can debate those posts if you want that too, if you want.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Normal people DO make mistakes. Go ask anyone. And some of those mistakes include minor cases of cheating especially at a young age

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please stop running circles around me.</p>

<p>This is my argument:</p>

<p>Yes, normal people make errors in judgment, and commit sins of various degrees. </p>

<p>However, antisocial acts are an entirely different matter. Committers of any single instance of such acts can only be redeemed after a fundamental change in character.</p>

<p>Now, don't make some fallacious argument like "you're comparing cheating to rape" or "I believe in forgiveness".</p>

<p>Whether or not you believe in forgiveness doesn't negate the fact that a single instance of an antisocial act is immediate evidence of antisocial personality. Forgiveness can only come after fundamental change to that personality.</p>

87

<p>lfecollegeguy: Experimenting with drugs is a crime against the self (and arguably with marijuana does not harm the self significantly) -- it is <em>NOT</em> an antisocial act. Way to fail my argument.</p>

<p>Yes, some people have changed after stealing from their grandparents, as one may change and embrace a constructive life after an antisocial-criminal life. Note that Malcolm X underwent nothing less than a total transformation in character in jail.</p>

88

<p>"You guys should all check out the new show "The Moment of Truth" on Fox. You'll get to see what kind of people exist in the real world once you really get to know the average American."</p>

<p>They don't chose average Americans to be on their show; they chose people with screwed up lives because that's what attracts viewers.</p>

89

<p>Here's one more thing: I honestly don't think OP's character flaw [if it even exists] is of an antisocial nature. If I'm not mistaken, antisocial behavior is associated with a complete lack of remorse, EVEN after being caught. This includes a simple expression of remorse, along with the true feelings. Clearly, the OP is showing remorse and is trying to resolve the problem.</p>

90

<p>3365, there must be a balance in all things. Respect and honesty are essential traits, but some people learn their importance after hard lessons. Honesty is an admirable trait, but many would find a person who lacks compassion and kindness to be missing the entire point of being a good human. The person who does not understand and love others, despite their temporary failings, is just not evolved, mature or educated. I hope you find yourself growing a kinder heart as you experience the ups and downs of life and eventually discover that no path is completely straight.</p>

91

<p>"Baelor: You seem to think all mistakes are accidental. That is incorrect. Also, why is stealing at 7 and stealing at 16 much different? Where do you draw the line? Are you suppoesd to be all-knowledgable in high school? Are people not allowed to make mistakes that aren't accidental?"</p>

<p>Uh...Fine. Mistakes are small things. You stayed up twenty minutes past your bedtime. Things like that. Cheating is completely different. </p>

<p>I already addressed how they are different. A seven-year-old's mind might not have developed fully. If it has, then stealing is very serious and should be punished. However, a high schooler's mind is clearly much more mature, and thus I have little reason to consider the two crimes the same. They have enough development to know that cheating is wrong, so they shouldn't do it. There's no need to draw the line. I appreciate the non sequitur, Mr. Logical Fallacy. However, I never claimed that I was all-knowing or that people can't make mistakes. This was NOT a mistake. I have zero tolerance for people who keep on making terrible decisions. Every moment from the beginning of the thought of cheating to actually carrying it out was yet another bad decision. Every instant of time that he decided not to stop was a bad decision. </p>

<p>"Why are some of the best people out there those that have learned from their mistakes (such as experimenting with drugs or have stolen money from their grandparents when they too were in high school)."</p>

<p>Again, at least stick to your own beliefs here. You are totally misrepresenting me. I never said that you can't learn from mistakes. I said that if the OP had truly changed, he should definitely write a heartfelt letter. I would like to think that he has. You are arguing against something I never said. I don't mind second chances. But nor am I lenient when there is such a huge timeframe to make the right decision.</p>

<p>"I'm not supporting their actions in any way but people are allowed second chances when they are made at a young age (yes high schoolers aren't full adults yet) and are not that serious."</p>

<p>Cheating is serious. The end.</p>

<p>"Galoisien, if I remember you were complaining about your family and this society not too long ago. To state that other people were raised up in inferior cultures when they simply believe in the morals of Christianity and forgiveness is quite insulting and pathetic."</p>

<p>Another fallacious argument. He's not expecting someone to grow up in a Christian environment. But schools have rules against cheating, no? There is enough of a hype and enough lectures about plagiarism, cheating, etc. to know that you shouldn't do it. Environment influences ethics and morality. However, we don't even need to consider it that way for everyone. There is a rule. If you break it, you get punished. There. A completely secular way of looking at cheating.</p>

92

<p>Top schools don't accept cheaters. Period. If you were suspended for drinking or something (even if you were qualified) you would certainly be penalized, but your application would still be considered. Academic dishonesty in high school is an unforgivable crime to an adcom, and is obviously abhorrent to any academic community. Your stats make all of those schools high-low reaches, but the suspension FOR CHEATING will make an acceptance to any of those schools virtually impossible. </p>

<p>Not only are you a moron for taking that risk with life-altering consequences (what college you go to, respect of community, faculty, and family) but you have to be a FLIPPIN IDIOT for getting caught.</p>

93

<p>JJJJ1234's post was by far the BEST post so far.</p>

94

<p>No matter on which side of this issue you fall, you should all know that top schools accept cheaters all the time. Period. You may not like it. I may not like it. But it is a fact.</p>

<p>And, jjjj, good way to make your amoral point, which I take it is--cheaters are idiots for taking such a big risk (note: nothing about the right or wrong of it), but at least show some skill at it if you are gonna do it, man.</p>

95

<p>
[quote]
After all, the per-pupil cost of public education ranges from 5k to 20k a year, depending on where you live. If you successfully cheat on quiz, which may be responsible for say, 1% of that year's GPA, haven't you cheated the State of at least fifty dollars, if not more?

[/quote]
Um, right, like that's totally going through someone's head when he's stealing something. You're basing your argument on the "ethical barriers" that one has to cross to commit such an act. Some obscure extrapolation does not make cheating worse than theft, where the person knows that he is actually hurting someone.</p>

96

<p>It was still pretty stupid to compare rape to cheating (no matter how you do it) in any account. Anyway, OP, you'll meet two types of people at college and on the admissions board. Those who thing cheating is extremely horrible and those who will be more forgiving and treat it like another lapse in judgment. I don't know why this discussion is continuing.</p>

97

<p>wow, lol, this is getting beyond funny</p>

<p>EDIT: oh, and grade inflati0n just burnt galoisien. dude, you try to think too much. Maybe you should give it a rest, don't try to come up with more stuff. Please. For the sake of this thread. Just stop.</p>

98

<p>the argument here on out is pointless, we reached the impasse pages ago and yet AD HOMINEM attacks and ridiculous comparison whether based on magnitude or not have kept it going... at this point i only hope the OP has taken the few nuggets of wisdom we have attempted to impart and ignored the ignorance of a few misguided posters...this was a simple lapse of judgment, not insignificant but not permanently damning, strive for forgiveness in the eyes of the adcom if u must but more importantly take something away from this incident for yourself, it isnt worth it to cheat
peace</p>

99

<p>Nice summary trackdude :]</p>

100

<p>
[quote]
It was still pretty stupid to compare rape to cheating (no matter how you do it) in any account.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
For goodness sake, </p>

<p>proof by contradiction != comparison </p>

<p>If I say that enjoying the act of picking the wings off a live fly and enjoying the act of torturing another human fall into the same category in that both incidents show a character flaw, I do not think I am doing injustice or insulting the millions of people who regularly get tortured by their governments each year.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Um, right, like that's totally going through someone's head when he's stealing something.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ignorance of the law was never a valid defence.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Some obscure extrapolation does not make cheating worse than theft, where the person knows that he is actually hurting someone.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh, I think the OP knew exactly who he was hurting.</p>

<p>Hint: they include the hundreds of people in his school who never cheated.
Please, follow Baelor's advice: think rationally and stop using fallacious arguments.</p>

<p>To date, the OP has shown no evidence that his "repentance" is <em>genuine</em>.</p>

<p>And that's what I'm getting at.</p>

<p>Because cheating is an incident that exposes a character flaw, we know that the cheating problem will not go away until the character flaw is corrected.</p>