<p>"However, I don’t understand the anger or self-righteousness of some of these posts. </p>
<p>How does anyone benefit from having an adversarial attitude?"</p>
<p>some folks like to argue politics, some like to argue sports, some like to argue Mac vs PC.</p>
<p>This place draws those who like to argue about colleges and college finances. :)</p>
<p>Also some folks have huge chips on their shoulders about their own choices, I suspect.</p>
<p>busdriver11 notes,“Funny about Suzy Orman, taxguy. Sounds like she is as annoying and obnoxious in person as she is on tv. I can’t even listen to her for a minute, even if what she’s saying makes sense.”</p>
<p>Response: Trust me on this, she is a LOT worse in person. She almost qualifies as being “vile,” which I have never said that about anyone before.</p>
<p>I don’t usually watch it, but recognized her character from either SNL or MadTV.</p>
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<p>My anger stems from when parents co-sign for a crushing amount of debt for an 18 year old. I really don’t care how adults spend their money (well, I care if they are able to fund their own retirement but are neglecting that…), if people have the money to do it, then good for them. </p>
<p>Thanks to the Marine Corps and the GI Bill, my spouse will be getting his PhD with zero debt. Thanks to my parents and paying as we go, I also have zero debt for my undergrad. My son, if he stays with his private college & it’s scholarship (which made it cheaper than our state flagship), will be doing the same for undergrad.</p>
<p>However, as well as it has all turned out for us, I have many people in my life who really regret the amount of debt they went into for undergrad and even some for grad school. It’s not something they would do again. In fact, if there is someone out there who does not regret going 75+ in debt for their undergrad, I’ve yet to meet them. I mean, I’m sure they are out there but they are way out numbered by those who are living with the aftermath of going to the “dream school”; which is four years of their lives that they working for decades to pay off. </p>
<p>I think kids who have the grades and who have worked so hard should not be led to believe that happiness lies at the end of the student loan rainbow. I also question how much of it is parental ego when I see parents co-signing these huge amounts and/or pushing their child in that direction.</p>
<p>I understand all those points, but I still don’t understand anger for those who make different decisions, or even those who make mistakes.</p>
<p>The scenario you describe for yourself and your family is wonderful, but it’s not the only viable scenario.</p>
<p>Debt is crushing, yes, but so are certain kinds of regrets, and things have to be weighed. There is not one equation that suits everyone, and I don’t see how anger helps communication of the truths that are important to you.</p>
<p>Oh, and just for a data point. The excellent private LAC my D attended was more expensive than the instate uni option when one was going to school, but much for the two years both were in school. So I would say given eight years of schooling, with two in privates that meet full need (Barnard and Williams) it probably cost the same overall as Binghamton or Stony Brook (the alternatives for each) although the first two years were more expensive than Binghamton.</p>
<p>Of course there is no price tag on the four years of experience D had in NYC or S is having in the Berkshires. </p>
<p>I’m sure the education at the unis is excellent.</p>
<p>I’m no Suze Orman fan, but I can agree that it is a mistake to allow kids to accumulate massive debt when the differences in what the degree means relative to their career outcomes one to five years post college is minor, but the debt lingers for decades.</p>
<p>Myth, people are always guilting each other, usually by stating their own choice, somewhat, shall we say,aggressively.</p>
<p>“My kid is going to college (prestigious private) X, I am so proud”</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>“I told my kid we couldn’t look at private schools, she HAD to go Flagship U, and she DID” </p>
<p>Each can lead to guilt, humiliation, self doubt, and seething. One way to deal with that is to turn it outward. Easier to do that here than with RL ‘friends’. </p>
<p>We are kind of in the middle. We passed over our state U’s despite living in Virginia, but of the two private schools the choice came down to, our DD, after discussion from us including long discussion about finances, chose the private school that made a much more generous offer of grants and will leave her with relatively manageable debt. </p>
<p>So we get to doubt our decision BOTH ways, now ain’t THAT fun? :)</p>
<p>I think we (mainly DD, but with our input) made the right choice for DD. </p>
<p>Now I just need to break the habit of coming here, or at least looking at this kind of thread. :)</p>
<p>Believe me, it doesn’t really bother me all that much if the parents and students had all the information and then chose to do something that I wouldn’t. It’s not my money and it’s not my life. It just think it’s sort of unhealthy and perhaps even cruel to lie to children about the way personal finances work. If the child is aware that they will have huge loan payments, and might have to live at home after graduation, or might have to drop out of their expensive school and commute to a much cheaper one if they run out of borrowing power (which happens often), and is still willing to take the risk anyway for their dream school, more power to them. </p>
<p>But all too often, kids come on this forum and into financial aid offices all over the country completely unaware. They don’t know that they have to qualify for their bank loans each and every year. They don’t know that they can’t really earn hundreds of thousands of dollars in scholarships from Fastweb.com. In fact, many of them can’t even get their parents to fill out the FAFSA.</p>
<p>BBD: Funny post. Hope your DD is very happy with her choice.</p>
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<p>I have been many watching Suze Orman for years and am not surprised somebody described her as vile.</p>
<p>Even so, I think Suze is one of those people who is realistic. She doesn’t say to people that everything will be fine and you won’t have to worry. She solves problems and makes solutions. I have learned more from watching Suze Orman than in any of my business classes. </p>
<p>Some people might say she is vile, but in the end I feel she is here to help people. Some people might like the way she presents her advice, but in the end many people have benefited form it.</p>
<p>I agree with mythmom. What business it is of your’s (any of you) what decision a family makes? This kind of dogmatic, nannying behavior is what is driving this country into the toilet. Financial prosperity requires (demands) that people are willing to take risks and reap the benefits and drawbacks of their options, including (if needed) private loans.</p>
<p>Bedouin…for the record…I agree with Mythmom. I do NOT agree with you. Your constant selling of huge loan debt is something that IS the responsibility of each family. YOU, however, make it sound like amassing huge debt is the road to prosperity for even low income folks. To be honest, I find it frightening that you are giving advice voluntarily to the students at your kids’ high school…unless, of course, it’s a wealthy, suburban, private, rich school where loans are the way folks go most of the time…and they have the income to support them.</p>
<p>Please…your “get a private loan for a LOT of money” advice gets woven into every thread you post on…and it is NOT sound advice UNLESS YOU CAN AFFORD SUCH A LOAN. Most low income folks are not in that position. The best gift a child can have leaving undergrad school is no, to little debt…with the maximum Stafford ($20K or so for FOUR YEARS) as a high end goal. Anything above and beyond that is onerous…in my opinion.</p>
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<p>What about stories like Enron? An extreme example maybe, but Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling were fore and foremost risk takers. Sometimes things worked out in their favor but that just encouraged more risk taking on their parts.</p>
<p>Risk needs to within reason. There is a point at which a debt load is too much.</p>
<p>@mclaxton: There is a fine line between judgment and advice. Since this forum is primarily intended (at least in theory) for the latter and since many parents or students may have their decisions influenced by what they read in this thread, I don’t see why recommending against taking on large debt is inappropriate.</p>
<p>@Bedouin: What business is it of yours to say that kids admitted to top private schools “should usually go”? How is implying that a state school education is unemployable (without any data whatsoever) legitimate when warning that extreme debt can be dangerous is “dogmatic” and “nannying”? If this is a decision to be “made by parents and their children and not by strangers”, who are you to offer advice?</p>
<p>Nobody has to read any of these posts. They can walk away at any time. But if you have the right to dismiss the value of a non-elite education, other posters certainly have the right to question the prospect of taking on significant debt.</p>
<p>Of course you have rights, but ultimately so do I. And even more ultimately ,so do the final say people – the parents adn the students have also have to make a decision. I believe one thing and you believe another, but the parents and the students have to decide whether or not they will go to to a higher-tier private school, or a higher-tier public school, or a lower-ranked school regardless of public or private.sometimes the lower-ranked school can be better for certain programs. </p>
<p>The problem I have here is that too many of you make sweeping condemnations of certain family’s choice. Often, going to a cheaper school to avoid debt is a good idea, but it’s not ALWAYS the best possible solution. How about instead of being condescending or putting down some families like the one from Suze Orman’s show, we treat their decisions as equally valid and wrothy of respect as some of the decisions that you and your children have made. I would never suggest a loan as a first resort, and I doubt that you could find a single post of mine where I ever said that people HAD TO take loans. Yes, I suggest it as a final resort on rare occasions, but only when the payoffs greatly outweigh the drawbacks…</p>
<p>in my opinion… :D</p>
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Is going into debt to buy a bigger house worthy of condemnation? What about to buy a Ferrari? How about for a hit of crack cocaine?</p>
<p>I’m not trying to say that those decisions are analogous to the one in this thread. Not at all. But ultimately, it’s human nature to be at least somewhat judgmental. And that’s a good thing. One of the primary reasons we coexist in societies is so that we can learn from each other’s successes and mistakes.</p>
<p>Anyone who reads this thread is choosing to do so. They can still go out and take on a ton of debt if they want to. But muzzling criticism of decisions that have real-world consequences does not strike me as productive nor caring.</p>
<p>By the way, I’d still like to see some data to support post #60.</p>
<p>Been around long enough to have figured out that some posters on here have A LOT more money than others. Either they always had money or mom and dad gave them a big leg up back in the day or they just make a lot as a two income family. Anyway $100,000 debt is much more to some people than to others and there is really no way of knowing who has the big bucks unless you read a bunch of peoples posts. So take it all with a grain of salt.</p>
<p>I don’t have money, and I don’t mean to stifle comments criticizing the taking of debt. And I don’t want to be rude.</p>
<p>What bothers me, and I’m not saying any of these posters are guilty of that, is the delight Suzy Ormond seems to take in belittling, poking fun at and destroying kids’ dreams.</p>
<p>If their family can’t afford it, sure, good to be clear. I am not suggesting anyone advocate that a kid take on huge debt.</p>
<p>For the record, not that my anecdotal evidence is any more valid than anyone else’s, next near my D is attending CUNY law school because the tuition is very, very reasonable instate (less than 1/4 of a big ticket law school.) I advocated this because she wants to do public interest law, and she listened to me, and I think it will be a good placement for public interest law.</p>
<p>However, I didn’t call her a spoiled brat because it was hard for her to make this decision.</p>
<p>And I didn’t call her a spoiled brat for desperately wanting to attend Barnard, an experience I honestly couldn’t duplicate at a NYS school. </p>
<p>I feel very grateful I was able to swing this, but I wouldn’t have encouraged her or myself to take loans I couldn’t pay back. I would have sold my house first if it was that important to me to give this to her.</p>
<p>Still, for some people loans are a viable option. And dreams are precious too. And so is financial stability. I totally agree with that.</p>
<p>I can’t look at life as a totally financial proposition. We’re here to live life. I doubt very much that my kids’ schools are going to reap financial rewards, but each has had an amazing four years that they can look back on for the rest of their lives when they are dealing with the mundane chores and responsibilities of adulthood. I <em>do</em> feel that’s worth something. It’s up to each family to determine how much it’s worth.</p>
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<p>It’s hard not to comment on a train wreck when you see one coming on.</p>
<p>I think I might support the choice to take on the debt if I did not think that in a few years we are going to be bailing out the education debt the same way we are bailing out the mortage debt. All those who could not afford the pricey school but went anyhow will get bailed out the same way those with the big house and mortgages got bailed out. Right now even banckruptcy does not wipe out education loans, but the ground swell is starting to change that, too. </p>
<p>Maybe before borrowing a finance test should be administered to make sure everyone can figure out the real cost of what they will owe compared to what they will make after taxes. Rebecca has no idea how much $900 a month really is or how much she will make and what other living expenses are.</p>