Swarthmore vs. Williams

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
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<p>It's down to these two for me. I'm visiting both overnight (Swarthmore next weekend, and Williams at Previews), and I have visited both at least once. I was hoping that some of you may be able to answer my questions and guide me towards making a choice. I've also been accepted at Tufts, Cornell, and Bowdoin, so if you have something to say about them please do.</p>

<p>Please don't feel like you need to answer all of the questions, as it's quite a long post. Anything you can offer will help. Thanks!</p>

<p>POTENTIAL MAJOR: Biology & Studio Art (with either a pre-medical or pre-law concentration)
OTHER POTENTIAL MAJORS/MINORS (I'm very indecisive and I plan to be flexible about major and other academic choices): Philosophy, Social Sciences</p>

<p>Questions on either or both schools
1) I'm not really an outdoorsy person, but I would like to get out and become more active. Would someone like me feel encouraged/motivated to get outdoors at Williams, or would I just feel inferior and self-conscious next to all the athletes/hikers/skiers?</p>

<p>2) What's the food like at both colleges? For those of you who have experienced both, what do you think? Is there enough variety, good quality, etc.?</p>

<p>3) Do students of similar ethnicities tend to self-segregate? As in, do most of the Asians hang out together, most of the African-Americans hang out, Hispanics, internationals, etc.</p>

<p>4) Are there any "nerds" at Williams? Are there "jocks" at Swarthmore? Do these groups mix and interact together easily?</p>

<p>5) I don't drink. I've heard conflicting reports on Williams' drinking habits and parties...some say that you have to drink in order to have some semblance of a social life, and they claim that Williams has turned them into alcoholics. On the other hand, I've heard that there's plenty to do for non-drinkers and there's no pressure to drink. I wouldn't mind going to a party every now and then without drinking, but I hope that's not the main attraction every weekend...is it?</p>

<p>6) What are some of the more accurate college review sites/books you've been looking at in order to make a decision after getting in? I've looked at <strong><em>, College *</em></strong><strong><em>, Princeton Review's Best Colleges, Fiske's Guide...what did you find to be the most accurate and honest? (I personally thought College *</em></strong>*'s takes on some colleges to conflict with other sources at times)</p>

<p>7) Both schools are pretty liberal, but which one is more "liberal"? Do most students who attend eventually get "converted" to politically liberal, agnostic, or atheist (as some of my parents' friends say)? What about churches/religious groups on campus?</p>

<p>8) People talk about the "Swarthmore bubble" and the "Purple bubble". I've grown up in a small, middle-class, mostly white suburban town most of my life, in a small high school. We joke about living in a "bubble" here as well. How much "real-world" experience would either school give you? Before you say that Swarthmore would be a better choice to break out of the bubble because of its proximity to Philly, the city will not really factor into my decision since I will probably spend more time on campus (and the workload at Swarthmore is supposed to pretty much chain you there?). Swarthmore also seemed exactly like my boring hometown...only prettier. But also warmer than Williams. Taking away Philly, what's there to like/dislike about the locations of both Swat and Williams?</p>

<p>9) How easy is it to get to NYC? Is it possible to do this cheaply and efficiently on a regular Friday? A Saturday?</p>

<p>10) Grad school prep: Both are supposed to be phenomenal schools for preparing and getting into equally phenomenal grad schools. But Swarthmore's grade deflation supposedly hurts an applicant's chances. Time to set the record straight (if you can): do grad schools factor into their review how difficult Swarthmore's academics are and note grade deflation, or do they see GPAs only by the numbers?</p>

<p>11) Arts scene: I'm really into art, theater, and writing. I've heard Swarthmore puts less emphasis on the arts, while Williams is a hub for culture & arts. But then again, Swarthmore is next to Philly. Which has a better arts scene?</p>

<p>Other info:
SWARTHMORE
-I received an early write.
-Received about $25,000 in aid. My FAFSA EFC was $5000.</p>

<p>WILLIAMS
-Did not receive financial aid yet, but I expect it to be comparable to, or greater than Swarthmore's.
-A close friend of mine attends Williams. I wouldn't go there just for her, and we certainly wouldn't be attached at the hip. We'd hang out maybe every few weeks or so. But it's nice to know someone in a new place right from the start.</p>

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<p>You can get to NYC from Swarthmore in about 2 hours by your choice of Amtrak train, NJ Transit train, Greyhound Bus, or private bus companies with fares as low as $10, I believe. My daughter generally used either the Chinatown buses or the NJ Transit train. She usually went to NYC for the weekend with friends once a semester or so. She had great stories – 18 freshman from her hall camping out at a friends parents apartment. </p>

<p>You can also get cheapo airline tix to just about anywhere. My daughter spent one weekend in Atlanta, cost her $118 round trip. Same with Miami trip. She did a couple trips to DC, once on a charter bus to lobby John Kerry’s office on genocide in the Sudan, another time for a weekend party with some lacrosse alums who were seniors on her hall and became good friends her first year at Swat. She had a friend who always flew home to Boston for opening day at Fenway Park – cheapo air fare. One of the great things about Swarthmore is how easy and inexpensive the travel is, for a Friday night on the town or a weekend getaway. I think it is very important at any college, but especially small colleges, to get out of the bubble and breath some air in the real world from time to time. </p>

<p>Yes, of course there are jocks at Swarthmore. 333 Swarthmore students (about 22%) played on at least one varsity team, that’s not including club sports like Rugby, Ultimate Frisbee, etc. That percentage is pretty typical for top LACs. It’s similar, for example, to Pomona.</p>

<p>Swarthmore is widely considered to be a model of implementing a successful diverse community – not just numbers. Look at the administration. Look at the students’ rejection of racial “theme” housing. Read some of the new President’s comments on diversity at Swarthmore. She’s talked about the “third wave” of diversity in numerous Q&A sesssions and written about it in her Martin Luther King Day speech.</p>

<p>As for the arts, Swarthmore has a very strong theater and dance program. You might want to listen to the faculty lecture by the chair of the theater department currently on the website. Swarthmore students are very connected to cutting edge theater. Several dozen recent alum are involved with one of the country’s most successful new theater companies, Pig Iron Theater. I don’t believe it’s at all accurate to say that there is not strong interest in the arts at Swarthmore. Student participation and attendance at events is high. The music department focuses a lot on new music – with several composers on the faculty – and on world music (e.g. Balinese Gamelin).</p>

<p>IMO, Fiske Guide is the best college guide and there’s not a second place.</p>

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<p>Clariss,</p>

<p>Many Swatties are involved in the arts both through classes and extracurricular activities. There are many talented Swatties and the school is very supportive of the arts.</p>

<p>Last year my D went to NYC for an interview and returned the same evening by train via NJ transit. It was a very long day but it is doable in one day. A much better and relaxed cheaper alternative is to go for the weekend via the Bolt bus. It is also very easy to get to DC and Baltimore as well.</p>

<p>I concur with ID that flying in and out of Philly can be done reasonably (Southwest and others have consistently great fares). Moreover, getting from the airport to campus is easy and inexpensive, even when the school shuttle is not running. </p>

<p>In addition to Fiske, there is a very good book, “The Insider’s Guide to Colleges: Students on Campus Tell You What You Really Want to Know” edited by Yale students. It is a great source of info about the feel around the campuses. </p>

<p>Hope you enjoy your visits and good luck, you have some great choices!</p>

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<p>It is not easy to get to Williams from any major city. There is a shuttle to albany, and I beleive to Boston, but if that doesn’t work out, a taxi is major $$$. Food is pretty much comparable. Maybe a bit more variety at Williams, the menu is more to my taste at Swarthmore, but the quality is the same.</p>

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<p>People here love to complain about the food, but the food’s OK. I don’t think people here really self-segregate, so it’s not like some people only have friends of one ethnicity, but a lot of people in general find more in common with people of their own ethnicity, or they might be friends from some culture student group. Of course there are jocks at Swarthmore, and there are athletes that I wouldn’t necessarily call jocks. Everyone at Swarthmore kind of has a small group of people that they hang out with. Everyone’s always eating with the same people. Don’t know too much about the guides…talking to current students is best. I don’t think Swarthmore has grade deflation. I think the answer to your question is that if Swarthmore has a good reputation with some grad schools, as in they’ve taken in a lot of swarthmore grads and see that they’ve done well, then the professors at the grad schools might favor swatties. I only go to NY during the breaks, and I take the boltbus (around $25 round-trip).</p>

<p>btw, if you have questions and want to talk to me, just send me a message so that i get an e-mail, since i don’t really go on this website much. good luck!</p>

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<p>Disclaimer: I visited and considered both schools, but did not apply to Williams and was accepted EDII to Swarthmore.</p>

<p>1) As a similarly not-outdoorsy-but-enjoys-being-active type of person, I did feel on my visit that Williams students are mostly already over that hump; I would be starting at the bottom, so to speak, because most of the non-athletes at Williams (part of the artsy subculture) are not interested in becoming more active.</p>

<p>3) I didn’t visit Williams in session, but I was impressed by the racial integration of Swarthmore’s dining hall.</p>

<p>4) My tour guide on my first visit to Swarthmore was a varsity soccer player, charismatic and stereotype-breaking. OTOH, I know several people who are attracted to Williams for the arts scene.</p>

<p>5) I don’t drink, and don’t plan to drink in college. Statistically, Williams definitely is more “alcoholic” than Swarthmore. Logically, it makes sense: mini has a list of characteristics that correlate with higher binge drinking, like “athletic” and “rural,” which fit Williams well. Keep in mind that Williams Preview is Mon-Tues, NOT representative of the weekend social scene.</p>

<p>6) I like Fiske and U n i g o. And CC, of course! Try searching for threads on Williams and/or Swarthmore in the Parents Forum and in College Search & Selection, not just the individual subforums.</p>

<p>7) Swarthmore, PA is still larger, with more amenities, than Williamstown, MA. The latter does not even have a Chinese take-out place within walking distance (though it does have a mid-scale Asian fusion restaurant).</p>

<p>8) Swarthmore has bus and train access to NYC through Philly. Williams is, well, in the middle of nowhere and proud of it.</p>

<p>11) Williams has a deserved reputation for the arts (though it remains a campus subculture socially); however, I wouldn’t say that Swarthmore puts “less emphasis” on them. I will say that the theatre department focuses on avant-garde/modern, which may or may not be to your taste.</p>

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<p>I couldn’t eat at Sharples because school was out, so can not compare them but Williams had the only “good” pasta dish in my entire college visit eating tour. My kid would always eat burger and fries to be fair and that was pretty good, too. Real red tomatoes, buns that tastes like bread, fries seemed as if it’s made out of potatoes, yet lunch crowd were sort of segregated. Everyone was over friendly to visitors, it was almost scary.</p>

<p>You say studio art, traditional or conceptual? Have you visited MassMOCA?
besides that Williams has nice museum within, and big-sh traditional one bit far off.
Art facilities were good but awful empty. You should know this if you have been there.
If you want to be in academia side of art. Williams grad school does it, don’t know how much that helps UG</p>

<p>At Swat, there were not much of visual art feel, but maybe it is a good thing if you are not dead set on it, since opportunities to do anything related to visual art is open to anyone and up to you with Swat’s great resources.</p>

<p>There are bus goes to/from Boston to NYC, Williamstown is in between. There are two trips each way per day, I don’t think day trip is doable.
Swat is so very easy and cheap to get anywhere.</p>

<p>then again, Williams could give you more aid? $5K EFC but onlty half COA covered is bit tough… what are your folks saying?
I am an art parent, no idea about academics but last year’s Swat art majors graduates did almost always double, tripled with something brainy. Scary.</p>

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<p>Hey. My credentials: I’m Swarthmore '09. My brother is Williams '11, and my mother is Williams '7?. So, I know both schools, but I picked Swarthmore over Williams. So biased.</p>

<p>1) I’m not really an outdoorsy person, but I would like to get out and become more active. Would someone like me feel encouraged/motivated to get outdoors at Williams, or would I just feel inferior and self-conscious next to all the athletes/hikers/skiers?</p>

<p>My brother started on the lacrosse team, and his initial impression was that people strongly identified by sports team. He’d always say that the first question people asked each other was “what team are you on?” (at Swarthmore, its more "whats your major?).</p>

<p>That said, he left the lacrosse team, and he doesn’t seem to think this is an issue anymore. So it might just have been the fact that most of his early social circle was other team athletes. Still, he hikes/climbs/skis on a very regular basis, and almost all of his friends do to. So there is certainly some pressure to get into the gym.</p>

<p>2) What’s the food like at both colleges? For those of you who have experienced both, what do you think? Is there enough variety, good quality, etc.?</p>

<p>Williams has more options, and–based on the few times I’ve eaten there–better food. But you’ll probably get tired of food wherever you go.</p>

<p>3) Do students of similar ethnicities tend to self-segregate? As in, do most of the Asians hang out together, most of the African-Americans hang out, Hispanics, internationals, etc.</p>

<p>My brother thinks that Williams is less diverse than Swarthmore. The queer community seems much smaller, and he thinks there are a lot fewer non-white students. I don’t know how accurate this is. InterestedDad can probably talk to it.</p>

<p>Swarthmore is extremely diverse. And there is a lot of interaction between the various ethnic groups etc–but they are <em>groups</em>. I was struck and a little disappointed by how clique-ish Swarthmore can be, and the serious us vs. them mentality exhibited by some prominent members of these groups. </p>

<p>I can’t say if this also occurs at Williams.</p>

<p>4) Are there any “nerds” at Williams? Are there “jocks” at Swarthmore? Do these groups mix and interact together easily?</p>

<p>There are certainly jocks at Williams. I’m not sure re: nerds. However, when I describe things like the pterodactyl hunt, or Psi Phi, or Free Culture, or SCCS, my brother can’t even imagine them occurring at Williams. And even if they did, he doesn’t think anyone would show up to them. So, while there might be nerds, they don’t own a bit of the school culture like they do at Swarthmore. I think.</p>

<p>5) I don’t drink. I’ve heard conflicting reports on Williams’ drinking habits and parties…some say that you have to drink in order to have some semblance of a social life, and they claim that Williams has turned them into alcoholics. On the other hand, I’ve heard that there’s plenty to do for non-drinkers and there’s no pressure to drink. I wouldn’t mind going to a party every now and then without drinking, but I hope that’s not the main attraction every weekend…is it?</p>

<p>Drinking plays a central role in most of my brothers non-athletic social activities. That would not (necessarily) be true at Swarthmore. I don’t know much more else.</p>

<p>6) What are some of the more accurate college review sites/books you’ve been looking at in order to make a decision after getting in? I’ve looked at *<strong><em>, College </em></strong><strong><em>, Princeton Review’s Best Colleges, Fiske’s Guide…what did you find to be the most accurate and honest? (I personally thought College </em></strong>'s takes on some colleges to conflict with other sources at times)</p>

<p>Most of those reviews are ridiculous, and they play into the schools stereotypes. Both Williams and Swarthmore seem to be moving to the middle–Williams is trying to be less of a preppy jock school, Swarthmore is trying to be less of the socially-dysfunctional scholar’s school. In the process, they both serve those communities less well, but have broader appeal.</p>

<p>7) Both schools are pretty liberal, but which one is more “liberal”? Do most students who attend eventually get “converted” to politically liberal, agnostic, or atheist (as some of my parents’ friends say)? What about churches/religious groups on campus?</p>

<p>I’ve never run into a person ‘converted’ at Swarthmore. People who get into these schools are smart (generally) and defend their beliefs. I had a good friend who was a young-earth creationist at Swarthmore (ie world created 6000 years ago), and while he had some issues (possibly was denied the right to be an RA due to his [crazy] belief that homosexuals would go to hell, even though he never pushed those beliefs out there unless you asked for them), his beliefs were generally tolerated.</p>

<p>There are strong religious groups at Swarthmore. They generally are a bit tucked away, and just as isolated as some of the ethnic groups mentioned earlier, even including some of the us vs. them mentality.</p>

<p>8) People talk about the “Swarthmore bubble” and the “Purple bubble”. I’ve grown up in a small, middle-class, mostly white suburban town most of my life, in a small high school. We joke about living in a “bubble” here as well. How much “real-world” experience would either school give you? Before you say that Swarthmore would be a better choice to break out of the bubble because of its proximity to Philly, the city will not really factor into my decision since I will probably spend more time on campus (and the workload at Swarthmore is supposed to pretty much chain you there?). Swarthmore also seemed exactly like my boring hometown…only prettier. But also warmer than Williams. Taking away Philly, what’s there to like/dislike about the locations of both Swat and Williams?</p>

<p>It is unfair to take away Philly from Swarthmore. Williamstown is a nicer town … but it takes HOURS–if you have a car–to get anywhere. You might not go to Philly much, but even 2-3 times a semester for interviews, or for really nice restaurants, etc. makes a huge difference.</p>

<p>But without Philly, also remember there are just a ton more people in the Swarthmore area. Which means more movie theaters, more stores, more places to eat, and MUCH easier access to NYC, Washington DC, and the airport, which is incredibly nice for getting home. If you are at Williams and you live in California, for example, getting home is a nightmare.</p>

<p>9) How easy is it to get to NYC? Is it possible to do this cheaply and efficiently on a regular Friday? A Saturday?</p>

<p>Very very easy from Swarthmore. Amtrak goes direct but is expensive. There are several dirt cheap bus routes and some local trains you can take too.</p>

<p>It is annoying as all hell from Williams. Even if you have a car.</p>

<p>10) Grad school prep: Both are supposed to be phenomenal schools for preparing and getting into equally phenomenal grad schools. But Swarthmore’s grade deflation supposedly hurts an applicant’s chances. Time to set the record straight (if you can): do grad schools factor into their review how difficult Swarthmore’s academics are and note grade deflation, or do they see GPAs only by the numbers?</p>

<p>Swarthmore produces far more future doctorates than Williams does in most fields. Far more than almost any school out there. If you want to be an academic, Swarthmore will help you more.</p>

<p>Grades <em>are</em> lower at Swarthmore. In some fields. Like biology. But Swarthmore still produces huge numbers of bio phds, so somethings going right.</p>

<p>11) Arts scene: I’m really into art, theater, and writing. I’ve heard Swarthmore puts less emphasis on the arts, while Williams is a hub for culture & arts. But then again, Swarthmore is next to Philly. Which has a better arts scene?</p>

<p>Williams does a lot of arts to compensate for being far away. The seriously artsy people I knew were regularly going into philly for exhibits, operas, theatre, etc. and Williams just can’t compare.</p>

<p>I don’t know too much about the Williams art scene. My brother seems to ignore it.</p>

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<p>I may have been too subtle when I said that Swarthmore was a national leader in both diversity and making a diverse community truly work. I was trying to make an unstated comparison. </p>

<p>Let be blunt:</p>

<p>a) There has not been one year at Williams in at least the last ten without a major bigotry incident. A faculty member using the n-word in a faculty meeting. A student papering dorms with Hitler’s birthday posters on Holocaust Rememberance Week. Black students finding the n-word painted on their doors. Queer slurs, such as the f-word spray painted on dorm walls. Drunk students using the n-word to accost other students walking on campus. There has not been a single incident of this sort reported in the Swarthmore Daily Gazette or Phoenix for at least the last ten years.</p>

<p>b) The college has hired diversity consultants. Commissioned “ad hod committees” on diversity. Institutited an annual “diversity training” day called Claiming Williams. And, so on and so forth. The administration’s diversity reports, which I have read, do not paint a pretty picture. I don’t know whether the complaints are real or or exaggeratted, but minority and other “non-mainstream” students express strong disenfranchisement from the predominant college culture. These are simply not issues at Swarthmore. Again, I would refer anyone interested to President Chopp’s “third-wave of diversity” comments in her Martin Luther King, Jr. day speech and essay. </p>

<p>c) The college just spent millions of dollars instutituting a “neighborhood housing” system. The stated goal of President Schapiro was to mix up housing and break up the de facto theme housing segregation: blacks in one dorm, football players in one dorm, and so on and so forth. The housing system has been completely rejected by the students and is being dismantled starting with this spring’s lottery where students can choose their neighborhood with lottery picks.</p>

<p>The difference in real-world diversity, on the ground at each school is one of the four key reasons that I would choose Swarthmore over Williams.</p>

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<p>I should note, in addendum to arador’s comments on cliquiness, that many of Swarthmore’s minority groups are “closed” to only those who self-identify as such; though a few are also “open.” This creates safe spaces for minorities but has the side-effect of encouraging the “us vs. them” mentality, which I’ve personally observed in other communities (e.g. anti-racism discussion groups).</p>

<p>But you can draw your own conclusions in comparing this issue to those at Williams, cited above by ID.</p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for your extensive answers! I’m definitely starting to get a better picture than my one visit to Williams and my two (short) ones to Swarthmore.</p>

<p>For specific questions:
@ bears and dogs: My parents said that they would be willing to pay half tuition, though it would be tough for then. We are hoping for significantly better aid from Williams so that if I do choose Swarthmore, I could ask them to reevaluate the aid compared to Williams. And if I choose Williams, it all works out haha. Do packages at Swat often improve in cases like this, if I call in and talk to them about it?</p>

<p>@ arador: What exactly made you choose Swarthmore over Williams? Did you visit both overnight? Was Swarthmore your first choice? Likewise, was your brother’s first choice Williams?</p>

<p>@ Keilexandra: Like arador, what made you choose Swarthmore over Williams? Also, how easy/difficult would it be for me to start theater projects/plays even if I am not a theater major?</p>

<p>Thank you all again!</p>

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<p>Just to be clear, by “groups” Keilexandria is refering to some of the official student organizations such as the Swarthmore African American Society, the Swarthmore Students of Caribbean Ancestry, the Swarthmore Asian Organization, Enlace (Latino, Hispanic, South American). Some are open membership groups some are closed membership groups. They all sponsor events and parties that are open to all students.</p>

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<p>Theater</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/x17686.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/x17686.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>^^Thank you for the clarification; I see now that “groups” could be taken in multiple ways.</p>

<p>@arador, I visited Williams during break and did the offical tour/info session. At the time, I liked the school a lot–the campus, the setting, the academic tutorials. However, the more research I did on Williams, the more I felt disillusioned; I am committed to not drinking in college, and I would LIKE to be active but I’m starting from ground zero on fitness. My research led me to start thinking back about the details of my visit: how polished my tour guide was (in a good way, but also in a not-like-me way), how the (African-American) student rep at the info session had been SO positive and unable to come up with real negatives even when asked directly, how I didn’t like the Asian food in Williamstown. :wink: </p>

<p>Lots of little things, but the drinking culture, coupled with the predominance of athletics, was ultimately what led me to not even apply. I have no doubt that a non-drinker could be happy at Williams, but I was personally not comfortable going into a situation where I KNEW I would be in an unnecessarily small minority in that respect. I currently attend a math/science high school and my academic interests lie in the humanities/social sciences; I have thrived, but I’ve also had many, many days where I wish that my school wasn’t so focused on math/science. So, having done my time as part of an institutional subculture, I really wanted to be part of a majority culture–someone upthread brought up the Pterodactyl Hunt, which garners a surprising amount of participation at Swarthmore. It takes a certain amount of cultural “power” to convince mainstreamers to join a LARP (live-action roleplay).</p>

<p>On athleticism, I’d like to point out two other differences between Williams and Swarthmore. First, % of varsity athletes:
Williams - 35%
Swarthmore - 19%
From [Equity</a> in Athletics Data Analysis Cutting Tool Website](<a href=“http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.aspx]Equity”>http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.aspx), though I calculated the numbers last year.</p>

<p>Also of note, Swarthmore does not have a football team. That wasn’t a deciding factor by any means, but it does mean something to me, because the institution, including administration and alums, allowed this to happen. I don’t think such a proposal would ever survive the gauntlet at Williams.</p>

<p>On theater: I’ve heard from some students who love the department, and others who do not. The department skews toward avant-garde and does not do much musical theater, but I keep hearing rumblings about student interest in the latter. You definitely don’t need to be a theater major to start projects; you do need to organize student support, though, and I get the feeling that strong leadership in this area would be a great boost.</p>

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<p>Clariss,</p>

<p>My D attended theater magnet programs from middle school through high school and serious theater summer college programs while in high school (NYU, Yale). She chose Swarthmore over Williams because of the quality of the program and opportunities at Swarthmore. In fact, after visiting, she never even applied to Williams and simply crossed it off due to some of the reasons previously mentioned by others. Another theater friend of hers, who came from a family with very strong generational ties to Williams, broke ranks and chose another LAC over Williams. </p>

<p>The proximity of Swarthmore to NYC and other markets, plus easy access to other northeastern cities, makes it possible for visiting theater professionals to teach at Swarthmore on a regular basis. Some come in for a day or two each week, and return to their regular theater jobs as playwrights, dramaturgs, actors, designers, etc, etc. The quality and depth of opportunities for a serious theater student through the honors program are amazing, and not available at any other LAC or even most BFA programs. </p>

<p>But most importantly, in answer to your question, classes are available to non-majors, as well as audition and performance/playwriting opportunities. Drama Board productions, which are not part of the theater department, provides another source of performance opportunities, coupled by a comedy sketch group (Boy Meets Tractor) and improvisatinal troupe (Vertigo-go) which are only two of many other performing student clubs. Many students who have gone on to non theater careers have double majored in theater.</p>

<p>Horseradish, before you go off into one of your rants, I am not disparaging Williams. It is undeniable that Williams has an excellent program, but for theater lovers, its distance from professional theater markets does impact the opportunities available to its students.</p>

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<p>When I visited Williams, I got the sense that, while everyone there was certainly smart, they weren’t exactly proud of being intellectuals. That was a turn off for me. </p>

<p>Also, as a legacy student, I had an interview with the dean of admissions. The interview basically was: “Hi. What are your grades? What are your AP/SAT/ACT/SAT II scores? What clubs are you in? What positions in those clubs? What awards have you won? Great. You should apply ED.” </p>

<p>The complete lack of interest in anything beyond my stats was enormously frustrating. </p>

<p>Also, I’m not an athlete. I enjoy tennis and climbing and cycling and all, but they are hobbies. And Williams is an athlete’s school. Which helps explain why at Williams, football would never be cut.</p>

<p>Re: football. Football is VERY hard for a small school to support. It requires lots of spots for football players, and it is very expensive (~1m/yr). Swarthmore had to decide between a sorta poor football team, or another two professors and lots more slots for more diverse students or other teams. I think it says a lot about Swarthmore that, in the end, it decided to cut the team. So like Keil above, I think it means something that the board of directors at Swarthmore was willing to force the issue to survive the gauntlet, and clearly put other priorities above a single team. Keeping football would have been the easy way.</p>

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<p>Dollars didn’t have anything to do with Swarthmore cutting football. It was all about admissions slots. </p>

<p>To field a DIII football team now requires about 20 dedicated “tips” for football recruiting in each class. A “tip” being a student who has average to below average academic qualifications and who would be unlikely to be accepted without the football tip. Swarthmore only enrolls 180 or so men in each class, so the football “tips” were having a very heavy impact on admissions, especially when admissions “tips” are needed for all the other varsity sports and for Swarthmore’s top priority: enrolling a highly diverse class. </p>

<p>When the athletic department outlined the number of tips necessary to support football and all the other varsity sports, Swarthmore’s board realised immediately that they simply would not sacrifice diversity to provide that many athletic tips (DIV III sports recruiting is extremely non-diverse). Football was the obvious cut. With the decision came a commitment to provide 15% of each incoming class as athletic “tips”, spread among all of the remaining sports – a commitment that is seeing Swarthmore teams enjoy considerably more success, now that football’s appetite for tips is not starving the other teams. Swarthmore’s never going to be a national powerhouse in sports. That was never the idea behind Division III sports. It’s supposed to be an extracurricular activity.</p>

<p>You can’t compare Swarthmore and Williams on athletics. Williams is the most sports-focused Div III liberal arts college the country. A professor famously called the school “a Nike camp with enrichment classes.” The most varsity athletes, the biggest athletics budget, etc. Swarthmore is in the normal category, about the same as places like Pomona and Grinnell. About 130 to 150 students in each freshman class at Williams are recruited athletes, tagged by athletic dept as likely four-year varsity contributors. That’s more than the number of arts, music, dance, and theater tags combined. Swarthmore has about 60 or so recruited athletes in each class.</p>

<p>Forget football, Williams wouldn’t ever consider dropping even wrestling, a sport so unpopular these days that Williams conference (the NESCAC) doesn’t even sanction wrestling. Middlebury and Bowdown and Bates and Colby and Tufts and Amherst don’t even have wrestling, so Williams competes againt Bridgewater State and Norwich University in wrestling. God help anyone who suggests cutting the program. Not happening.</p>

<p>Saying that Williams isn’t a jock-oriented school is like saying nobody takes academics seriously at Swarthmore. It’s just a ridiculous thing to say. Can non-jocks get a good education at Williams? Sure. It’s an excellent school. Can they find a social life outside of the teams? Some do. Some don’t. There is definitely a big divide in the student body that is highlighted in report after report – the Faculty report on Alcohol. the faculty report on diversity, the faculty report on Athletics. Same theme.</p>

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<p>BTW, the decision to cut football at Swarthmore was painful. Swat alum, Neil Austrian '60 was a board member at the time and a former President of the National Football League. He basically resigned over the decision.</p>

<p>Ironically, Dartmouth’s Admissions Dean lost his job over Swarthmore’s decision. He wrote a letter to Pres. Bloom at Swarthmore in support of the deicison saying that any honest admissions dean at a top liberal arts colllege or Ivy League university would agree that football recruiting undermines the academic standards of admissions. The letter leaked and the Dartmouth alumni ran the guy out of town.</p>

<p>It’s not a knock on football players. If football teams were 20 students, no problem. With rosters of 80 students, though, the admissions cost is huge.</p>

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<p>The more I learn about Swat, the happier I am that my D chose to accept her acceptance there.</p>

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<p>To be fair to Williams, the girls are definitely hotter there. :P</p>