Williams vs. Swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Williams College
1

<p>It's down to these two for me. I'm visiting both overnight (Swarthmore next weekend, and Williams at Previews), and I have visited both at least once. I was hoping that some of you may be able to answer my questions and guide me towards making a choice. I've also been accepted at Tufts, Cornell, and Bowdoin, so if you have something to say about them please do.</p>

<p>Please don't feel like you need to answer all of the questions, as it's quite a long post. Anything you can offer will help. Thanks!</p>

<p>POTENTIAL MAJOR: Biology & Studio Art (with either a pre-medical or pre-law concentration)
OTHER POTENTIAL MAJORS/MINORS (I'm very indecisive and I plan to be flexible about major and other academic choices): Philosophy, Social Sciences</p>

<p>Questions on either or both schools
1) I'm not really an outdoorsy person, but I would like to get out and become more active. Would someone like me feel encouraged/motivated to get outdoors at Williams, or would I just feel inferior and self-conscious next to all the athletes/hikers/skiers?</p>

<p>2) What's the food like at both colleges? For those of you who have experienced both, what do you think? Is there enough variety, good quality, etc.?</p>

<p>3) Do students of similar ethnicities tend to self-segregate? As in, do most of the Asians hang out together, most of the African-Americans hang out, Hispanics, internationals, etc.</p>

<p>4) Are there any "nerds" at Williams? Are there "jocks" at Swarthmore? Do these groups mix and interact together easily?</p>

<p>5) I don't drink. I've heard conflicting reports on Williams' drinking habits and parties...some say that you have to drink in order to have some semblance of a social life, and they claim that Williams has turned them into alcoholics. On the other hand, I've heard that there's plenty to do for non-drinkers and there's no pressure to drink. I wouldn't mind going to a party every now and then without drinking, but I hope that's not the main attraction every weekend...is it?</p>

<p>6) What are some of the more accurate college review sites/books you've been looking at in order to make a decision after getting in? I've looked at Uni-go, ********<strong><em>, Princeton Review's Best Colleges, Fiske's Guide...what did you find to be the most accurate and honest? (I personally thought *</em></strong>*******'s takes on some colleges to conflict with other sources at times)</p>

<p>7) Both schools are pretty liberal, but which one is more "liberal"? Do most students who attend eventually get "converted" to politically liberal, agnostic, or atheist (as some of my parents' friends say)? What about churches/religious groups on campus?</p>

<p>8) People talk about the "Swarthmore bubble" and the "Purple bubble". I've grown up in a small, middle-class, mostly white suburban town most of my life, in a small high school. We joke about living in a "bubble" here as well. How much "real-world" experience would either school give you? Before you say that Swarthmore would be a better choice to break out of the bubble because of its proximity to Philly, the city will not really factor into my decision since I will probably spend more time on campus (and the workload at Swarthmore is supposed to pretty much chain you there?). Swarthmore also seemed exactly like my boring hometown...only prettier. But also warmer than Williams. Taking away Philly, what's there to like/dislike about the locations of both Swat and Williams?</p>

<p>9) How easy is it to get to NYC? Is it possible to do this cheaply and efficiently on a regular Friday? A Saturday?</p>

<p>10) Grad school prep: Both are supposed to be phenomenal schools for preparing and getting into equally phenomenal grad schools. But Swarthmore's grade deflation supposedly hurts an applicant's chances. Time to set the record straight (if you can): do grad schools factor into their review how difficult Swarthmore's academics are and note grade deflation, or do they see GPAs only by the numbers?</p>

<p>11) Arts scene: I'm really into art, theater, and writing. I've heard Swarthmore puts less emphasis on the arts, while Williams is a hub for culture & arts. But then again, Swarthmore is next to Philly. Which has a better arts scene?</p>

<p>Other info:
SWARTHMORE
-I received an early write.
-Received about $25,000 in aid. My FAFSA EFC was $5000.</p>

<p>WILLIAMS
-Did not receive financial aid yet, but I expect it to be comparable to, or greater than Swarthmore's.
-A close friend of mine attends Williams. I wouldn't go there just for her, and we certainly wouldn't be attached at the hip. We'd hang out maybe every few weeks or so. But it's nice to know someone in a new place right from the start.</p>

2

<p>I think your gut will tell you when you walk on both campuses and meet the students. Each school has its proponents and advocates. My S’s GF chose Williams over Swat; Interesteddad’s D chose Swat over Williams.</p>

<p>Williams detractors will say the drinking and athletics scene is bigger there. Probably true, but my S a non-drinking non-athlete has been very happy there and can’t ski. He keeps meaning to learn but he’s too busy with his other activities.</p>

<p>It is a schlep to NY from either school; Swat is closer. Williams is a long bus ride. Not very feasible for a weekend jaunt, though some parents have reported that their kids go to NY once or twice a semester.</p>

<p>Both are very rigorous academically. My S felt very at home at Williams, not so much at Swat. Just a matter of taste. Swat is more politically correct; Williams is more laid back but in general still left leaning, but maybe not quite as much.</p>

<p>Swat has the consortium and Philly; Williams has the mountains and the little town. I personally feel more isolated at Swat because of the way the town and campus intermingle at Williams. I’m sure the easy access to Philly would have most feeling the opposite.</p>

<p>This is a lovely choice, and here I think you can trust your gut; you can’t go wrong. Probably the schools are about 50/50 in cross admits. I know several folks who chose Williams over Swat and I know of folks who did the opposite.</p>

3

<p>clariss your $25,000 in aid seems a little low from a top school for an EFC of $5,000</p>

<p>my guess is that Williams would give you something closer to $45,000 based on the EFC</p>

4

<p>This is to supplement Mythmom’s comments. Her posts on CC were helpful to me, as a parent, while my son was in your position of deciding. He now is a sophomore at Williams.</p>

<p>Assuming the cost of attending is not an issue, I agree that particularly at this point gut feeling is very important. A lot of thought went into deciding where to apply. And, you have a wonderful list of options, from which you can’t make a “bad” decision. Now, sensing where one will thrive for 4 years plays a stronger role. By thrive I mean be happy and be able to benefit from the campus academically & socially.</p>

<p>I’d only add that with location my son considered where he would most likely live for most of his adult life & decided that a change from city life would be an experience that he wanted to have. For him part of that meant trying outdoors activities, like backpacking and skiing, which he has done and enjoyed. </p>

<p>As a parent, I think he didn’t want the college to define him, nor did he want to feel confined by the college’s reputation. With a place like Swarthmore or UChicago the “rep” leans toward nerdy intellectual. I think with Williams, while he was deciding, he sensed that he’d find a wider range of students. </p>

<p>All his friends on campus are serious about their academic work. They also have a wide range of interests and come from all over the US and the world. Their involvement in extra-curricular activities have depth, be it in the arts or sports. I’ve been impressed with how he has been able to connect with so many different students. I’m not saying that this wouldn’t have happened at Swarthmore or UChicago, only that he sensed that this would happen for him at Williams. Again, be aware of what your gut is telling you.</p>

<p>I’ll put a separate post for your transportation question. Feel free to PM me. I might be able to answer questions about studio art.</p>

5

<p>Transport to NYC: This past year it became easier to get to NYC on the weekends from Williams. A student-run service has a bus to Manhattan on weekends. It leaves on Friday & returns on Sunday. This service has been regularly chartering motorcoaches for the break periods to aid in getting to Albany, Boston, & NYC. The trip to NYC is about 3.5 hours. My son typically sleeps on the bus or does homework.</p>

<p>At Previews inquire about ticket prices & whether the service might expand next year. Someone in the admissions office should be able to connect you with someone who can answer any questions.</p>

6

<p>I’m with Mythmom here. After your overnight you’ll just KNOW.
My son graduated from Williams in 07 with a degree in art and art history. He liked Swarthmore (though his second choice was Wesleyan).
In answer to your questions:</p>

<p>11) I’ll start with this one as I think it’s the most significant. Double majoring in humanities/science is common and doable. Williams has a wonderful art and art history department, far surpassing Swarthmore’s. Very good (but small) theater department as well. Some excellent writers in the excellent English department. The Berkshires are definitely a sophisticated arts and culture destination; however, it is not New York City. (But for that matter, Philadelphia isn’t New York City either.) </p>

<p>1) My son is an Eagle Scout so he didn’t need much encouragement but he was delighted to help others to get to love the great outdoors. You will be able to join in on your own level and pace from day one if you choose one of the backpacking orientation trip. The Williams Outing club organizes all kinds of activities for people with all levels of experience. Enjoying nature is not a competitive sport! </p>

<p>There are also of impromptu and very informal events like sledding, broomball (a Williams specialty), frisbe. I thought the sports emphasis would be problematic, but actually it turned out to be one of the best aspects of Williams. Kids are healthy and burn off academic tension by getting out there and doing something.</p>

<p>2) My son loved the food. That there are several dining hall choices (5 or 6?) is unusual for a college of Williams’ size.</p>

<p>3) Don’t know but my son – who grew up overseas and attended an international school – was satisfied with the diversity.</p>

<p>4) Can’t answer this one.</p>

<p>5) This is always a tough question. Most Williams kids are sensible and serious. For sure some drink more than is good for them or good for their neighbors. My son and most of his friends were light or nondrinkers, but I wouldn’t have been surprised if they had their moments. The best way I can describe it is to say that these are active energetic kids. The reports are conflicting because the eyes of the beholders are variable. </p>

<p>6) Visit</p>

<p>7) Williams leans left but is not highly political, much less so than Swarthmore. There are certainly various religious groups on campus but none dominates. I’d say that Williams is a tolerant environment and kids with less popular beliefs – whether political or religious – get equal time.</p>

<p>8) I wouldn’t list Philadelphia as a positive. :)Williamstown is a profoundly beautiful mountain village. You either want to be there or you don’t. </p>

<p>9) My son usually made it to New York or Boston once or twice a term. Sometime for a personal/social reason, sometimes for a Williams related event. It’s a long trip. See Point 8: You either want to be there or you don’t.</p>

<p>10) My son and his friends were all accepted into very good graduate programs. They knew their professors well and had excellent recommendations. I wouldn’t say, however, that Williams is any less grade deflated than Swarthmore, but yes, graduate schools know this.</p>

7

<p>Thank you all - I figured that the final answer would be to visit, but I did learn quite a bit from all of your responses. It’s a relief to know that I guess I really can’t go wrong with this choice.</p>

<p>I did have one other general question though: How, exactly, does crew at Williams work? I’ve heard that you don’t need any prior experience to join crew and it is generally a walk-on sport. Since I do want to find an activity to stay active and have fun with, would a normally un-athletic person like me stand a chance at joining? Is it tryouts-based, or does everyone who come get assigned to teams according to their respective athletic level? I’ve heard nothing but positive experiences about this sport from my friends who have participated at other schools.</p>

<p>Thanks again for taking the time to write some really great responses!</p>

8

<p>I think its completely walk-on, though obviously your erg times determine which boat you’re on.</p>

9

<p>I will stick to the mirror thread that you posted in the Swarthmore forum, but I wanted to comment briefly on crew–I have a friend who will be attending in the fall, recruited for crew, so it is not entirely walk-on. Williams women’s crew is also #1 in the nation or close to it, so it may not be the best sport at Williams for an “un-athletic person” to try joining with no prior experience.</p>

10

<p>My Swarth. interviewer said that graduate schools took her grade deflation into account. But I’m not sure on how Williams’ grade inflation situation is since I can’t find any recent sources.</p>

11

<p>On the Boalt Scale put out by UCBerkeley Law School there is a descending list of how it is to get an A at each college.</p>

<p>Swat is number 1, hardest.
Williams is number 2, hardest.</p>

<p>You can google the link I think. Sometimes it comes up on a CC thread.</p>

12

<p>Here is a link to the GPA adjustment scale Mythmom referred to:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-davis/169176-easy-gpa-davis.html#post2118856[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-california-davis/169176-easy-gpa-davis.html#post2118856&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Note that UC Berkeley Law School abandoned this GPA adjustment scheme more than a decade ago. Nevertheless it illustrates how many graduate schools and professional schools respect the grading standards at Swarthmore and at Williams.</p>

13

<p>This and the corresponding thread in the Swarthmore forum are an interesting comparison. Gosh there are some strong anti-Williams voices out there.</p>

<p>Yes, Williams is more athletic. Maybe you’ll discover that a football player can be one of your close friends, and that he’s smart and kind-hearted. </p>

<p>Yes, there is drinking. There’s also serious cookie baking going on. And polar bear swims and midnight hikes and spiritual fellowship. Different people do different things, you get to choose. </p>

<p>Either school provides the best of the best academically with great peers. There’s no wrong decision here. Think it over, visit if you can, and go with your gut.</p>

14

<p>I find it interesting that every response on this thread (as far as my limited memory can tell) is from a parent, rather than a student.</p>

15

<p>Yes, it’s true. My S is totally uninterested in CC. I don’t think he’s been on the site once. I really don’t think that says anything about his love for his school. He finds this a silly pastime. So does my D who attended and graduated from Barnard. Didn’t post once or read any posts and she adored her school as well.</p>

<p>And I found this after they left to fill some of those empty nest hours.</p>

16

<p>^I didn’t mean to imply something about their love for their respective schools, but rather for the possible bias of parents with regard to things like drinking.</p>

17

<p>I’m not sure why you find that so “interesting” or what significance you may read into that. My S doesn’t post on CC, and I think that’s the case with the children of the other parents who post here. </p>

<p>Williams has been on spring break for the last two weeks, so current students may have been busy doing things away from their computers during that time.</p>

<p>To the OP: re: crew at Williams – I would suggest you try to talk to someone when you visit. They do seem to want walk-ons, so if you’re interested in trying something new, and don’t have expectations of being at the top of the roster, it could be a possibility. I’m not trying to discourage you from checking out the rowing possibilities at Swat as well. </p>

<p>Also, regarding being a non-athlete among a relatively athletic or active student body, there are lots of beginning level PE classes that have true beginners in them. There are also opportunities to do things like hiking as a PE class, as well as with the outing club. </p>

<p>The other thing is that just because someone is really good at one sport does not necessarily mean he or she is good at something else. Lots of kids try things outside of their comfort zones, either for PE or in intramurals, and especially in the case of the latter, it seems most important to maintain a sense of humor. </p>

<p>Just so you know where I’m coming from … I’m a (relatively) non-athletic alum and the parent of an athletic sophomore. I know my S does drink some, but I also know that he has friends he hangs out with who don’t drink at all, and other friends who abstain during their sports seasons or on the nights before games/matches or just because they don’t feel like drinking. He has been known to stay in on a weekend night when he has a midterm or big paper coming up.</p>

<p>He and his friends talk politics (and argue, because they are not all alike), and they also talk about music, sports, the substance of their classes, books, life, and other things. He and his friends seem to read a lot and to discuss what they’re reading. My S has close friends of different races and ethnicities, different political views, different religions. </p>

<p>The notion of athletes or jocks as distinct from “nerds” doesn’t apply neatly to the college scene, at least not at schools like Swarthmore or Williams or other top academic schools. You will find nerdy or scholarly athletes at both, and if you make assumptions based on some initial details or perhaps prejudices from h.s., you will be surprised at how off some of those assumptions are. These kids at both schools are much more interesting and complex than such labels might lead you to believe.</p>

<p>Clariss, you have an enviable choice. Best of luck to you in making the one that feels right for you.</p>

18

<p>^Did you cross-post with my clarification? I’m not commenting on the absence of student posters, but rather on the skewed perspective of all-parental responses.</p>

19

<p>Keil – why the continuing interest in Williams? You’ve made yourself perfectly clear and have plenty of space to comment on the Swat board.</p>

20

<p>Keilexandra, I’m a parent, I know my daughter drinks occasionally. It has not defined her experience at Williams. From a parent perspective, I appreciate the watching over each other that entries tend to provide. Some of my daughter’s high school friends are having rotten first year experiences at schools where alcohol flows seven days a week. That’s not what she is experiencing at Williams.</p>