Swat vs. Haverford

<p>I don’t think interesteddad is saying that you HAVE to make a decision based on financial stability. But if you like both schools equally for different reasons, you obviously should pick the one with more money to spare. Sometimes, elytron, people really do feel “warm and fuzzy” at more than one school–myself included. I loved, and still love, Carleton; Swarthmore won because of better financial aid policies (=more money) and distance to home (a plus for my parents, a minor con for me).</p>

<p>Wrt to the new dorm, it seems more like HC is being “forced” to take out more debt for the new dorm in order not to lose the matching grant. That is, would HC have built a new dorm in this financial climate if not for the grant? It may benefit the current crop of students, but that new debt still has to be paid and may well impact the school’s long-term financial standing. I speculate; ID, I’m sure, can provide more concrete data.</p>

<p>Wrt to the always-controversial academics: Swarthmore is more intense. That’s not a good thing for a lot of people. I do believe that a school can have equally rigorous academics without equal intensity. In this respect, Haverford is “just as good”–but it’s absolutely not the same academic experience.</p>

<p>There is also the issue of academic fit. It is really up to the OP to figure out, by comparing course catalogs and major requirements, which English/complit/psych/phil/religion offerings s/he prefers. </p>

<p>Rereading the OP, I see that you want “seriously intellectual” and “laid-back.” While you’ll find populations of both at both schools, I personally think that Swarthmore has more “seriously intellectual” students (emphasis on the seriously, which implies intensity to me) and Haverford has more “laid-back” students. Both have a good population of Wes-like quirky students; Haverford is more athletic, especially for intramurals. Swat’s religion department is exceptionally broad in non-Judeo-Christian scope, but I have no clue about Haverford’s.</p>

<p>Yes, I thought that update was very interesting. This was perhaps the most telling sentence:</p>

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<p>Not all, but most colleges and universities have already outlined their three-year frameworks for budget-cutting – how many staff will be eliminated, changes to financial aid, projected enrollment increases, and so forth. Just to cite two examples, you can get a pretty good feel for the magnitude of the cuts from planning documents released publicly by Swarthmore, Amherst, and many more.</p>

<p>If I were looking at colleges for the next four years, years that will be directly and significantly impacted by those budget cuts, I would be very interested in those planning documents, and very curious if none have been released.</p>

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<p>The new 80 person dorm will be Haverford’s first new dorm since 1968. During that period, Swarthmore has built Mertz, Alice Paul, and David Kemp.</p>

<p>The plans for the new 80 person dorm at Haverford have been scaled back from 30,000 square feet to 22,000 square feet by eliminating all stairs and elevators from the interior. There will be no inside access between the first and second floors of the dorms. Each floor will have its own outside stairways and entries. Compare to Alice Paul (76 beds) at 30,321 square feet and David Kemp (75 beds) at 29,000 square feet. This is a small, but excellent example of how financial constraints impact student life. It would be one thing if the “fancier” colleges charged higher prices, but Haverford charged, on average, $4,000 more per student last year than Swarthmore did ($35,600 versus $31,600).</p>

<p>Fine, you know what, don’t go to Haverford, obviously outdoor stairs are not satisfactory</p>

<p>I’m sure this has nothing to do with the fact that Swarthmore is 30% larger in terms of population while Haverford students have voted against increasing the size of each incoming class for years.</p>

<p>The OP requested information about academic and social life. Now that you’re done advertising Swarthmore’s money, perhaps you could share your considerable insight into life at Swarthmore instead</p>

<p>Is there any college ranking/rating list or system anywhere in the world that places Haverford as high or better than Swarthmore? Is there any metric by which we could say that Haverford students are as bright as Swarthmore students? Just curious.</p>

<p>Actually, Swarthmore’s enrollment has grown very slowly during that period. The very slow growth in enrollment has been cited in papers (for example, from the Williams College project on higher education economics) as a major reason for Swarthmore’s financial strength.</p>

<p>From 1976 to 2008, Swarthmore’s enrollment increased by 21%, from 1224 to 1477 students. Haverford’s enrollment increased by 41%, from 829 students to 1169 students. So I don’t believe that would account for the lack of new dorms at Haverford since 1968.</p>

<p>As you are probably aware, Haverford experienced financial distress resulting from a poorly timed growth strategy in the 1970s. They were forced to spend down their endowment to cover operating costs which has had a lasting impact, especially on physical plant.</p>

<p>I don’t know what Haverford’s enrollment plans are for the next few years. They have not released budget planning information. Swarthmore’s budget plan includes a total increase of 35 students over the next three years. It’s an important number because it reflects directly on the quality of the educational program (student/faculty ratios). Amherst, for example, is in the process of increasing its enrollment by 180 students, so the Amherst for next year’s freshmen will not be the same Amherst as several years ago.</p>

<p>AE, I really hope for Swarthmore’s sake that you are not representative of the kind of modest, thoughtful people I’d expect to find there</p>

<p>Perhaps you misunderstood the OP</p>

<p>“And interesteddad, while I appreciate your statistics-driven posts and find them both interesting and valuable, I am really more interested in hearing from people who have more direct experience with each school than being the parent of a student.”</p>

<p>Are you a Haverford student, elytron? I really hope for Haverford’s sake that your approach to debate and general courtesy expectations are not representative of the kind, thoughtful people I hope to find there over the course of the next four years.</p>

<p>That’s my point exactly. I apologize if you find I’m being rude, but I’m frustrated by the fact that EVERY time this topic comes up, it has to be a debate and there has to be a school that “wins”. The OP opened up a discussion but every new post seems to be turning it into a contest. I don’t think any of us has succeeded in actually answering Kramerica’s question, and perhaps if we redirected the conversation we might have more success.</p>

<p>Regarding your academic interests, you might find these useful:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.brynmawr.edu/eastasian/[/url]”>http://www.brynmawr.edu/eastasian/&lt;/a&gt;
[Haverford</a> College: Department of Religion : Welcome](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/religion]Haverford”>Department of Religion)
[Haverford</a> College: Department of Psychology : Welcome](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/psychology]Haverford”>Department of Psychology)
[Haverford</a> College: Department of English : Welcome](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/english/]Haverford”>Department of English)
[Writing</a> Program :: Haverford College](<a href=“http://www.haverford.edu/writingprogram/]Writing”>http://www.haverford.edu/writingprogram/)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/asianstudies.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/asianstudies.xml&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/complit.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/complit.xml&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/englishliterature.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/englishliterature.xml&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/psychology.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/psychology.xml&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/religion.xml[/url]”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/religion.xml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>CC probably won’t let me post the link, but u n i g o . c o m has some fantastic student reviews/interviews from each school that I found really helpful when I was picking out schools</p>

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<p>OK. On academics, would you like to start with the writing programs at the two schools?</p>

<p>Swarthmore’s writing program is headed up by a full-time tenured faculty member who is exclusively assigned to the Writing Associates program. Haveford’s program is headed by a “visiting professor”.</p>

<p>Swarthmore has three times more writing associates assigned to courses (47 writing associates) than Haverford has writing tutors in total (17 students). I don’t believe Haverford has any writing mentors assigned to courses. Swarthmore has a total of 61 writing associates this year.</p>

<p>Swarthmore’s writing associates all complete a full-semester full-credit advanced seminar on writing pedagogy. Haverford does not mention what training, if any, their student writing mentors receive.</p>

<p>The nationally recognized writing associates program at Swarthmore is an example of how academic programs really can’t be divorced from available budget. One of the recommendations of the last Haverford Accrediation evaluaton was the need to beef up the writing program. Major changes were made, but it is still far short of the standard set by Swarthmore.</p>

<p>On “social life”, I think any discussion would have to start with diversity and/or lack thereof. For fall 2008, Swarthmore’s enrollment was 45% non-white or international compared to Haverford at just 32%. This degree of “lily-whiteness” obviously has a fundamental impact on every facet of the campus community and social life. Again, it is impossible to divorce this from financial resources. Diversity costs money, both in terms of recruiting and financial aid. To balance its budget, Haverford must get $4000 more cash money per student each year than Swarthmore does. This means less per student financial aid, less diversity, and a whiter/wealthier student body. On a percentage basis, Haveford has half the itnernational student enrollment as Swarthmore, because that’s all they can afford. They have a dramatically lower percentage of Asian Americans. A lower percentage of Latino/a students. A lower percentage of African American students. I’m sure that the differences are quite noticeable on campus. Increasing diversity was also a recommendation of the last accreditation review.</p>

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<p>Not really. I’m not replying to the original poster. I believe that the original poster should go to Haverford and, probably, had already made the decision to go to Haverford before posting. </p>

<p>This may surprise you, but I think that most students who are actually debating whether to choose Haverford or Swarthmore probably should go to Haverford. It’s a fine school. Swarthmore is not for everybody.</p>

<p>elytron - I don’t necessarily think that a debate of each school’s positive and negative qualities means that one has to “win” out–except that one DOES have to “win” for the OP. Your frustration, while understandable, does come across as rude.</p>

<p>Over on the Haverford forum, I recommended to the OP that s/he choose Haverford–because the offered “visit impressions” were, to me, telling. Haverford felt “warm” and Swarthmore “cold.” I concur absolutely with interesteddad that Swarthmore is a better academic bargain, so long as you’re OK with the intensity of the experience; but that is all secondary to which school you actually like more. Love will help you make the most of an excellent experience, perhaps more than if you’re disillusioned at a school with superior resources (and overall Swarthmore does have superior resources, primarily a function–once again–of money, especially in the humanities where outside funding is rare).</p>

<p>Writing at Haverford begins with your freshman writing seminar, a semester long course that can be topic based or more broad. These include:</p>

<p>Justice: A Cross-National and Cross-Cultural Perspective<br>
Perspectives on Immigration and Education in the United States
The Culture of War
Perspectives on Immigration and Education in the United States
Medical Narratives Reading Culture: Poverty in the United States

Becoming: Memoirs about Creating a Life in Science or Medicine
Evolutionary Arguments from Darwin to GATTACA
Excursions in the Void: Existentialism, Nihilism and Radical Doubt
Innovation, Rebellion, and Dissent
Children of the Night and Their Music
Versions and Adaptations
Writing in Public Health
Reading Sacred Texts: In Quest of the Human
The American West in Fact and Fiction
The Language of Argument
In Harmony with Nature: Quaker Perspectives on Sustainability
Introduction to Literary Analysis: Marvelous and Monstrous Passions of the West
and a few more that I was too tired to keep copying.</p>

<p>As far as tutoring goes, Haverford writing center is open every day where (their website says it better than I can): Peer tutors and faculty members are available to talk with you at any stage of a writing project, from brainstorming ideas and framing a thesis to polishing syntax and style. We will work with you on your writing for any course or discipline, including essays for first-year Writing Seminars, lab reports, senior theses, and personal essays for fellowships or grad school applications. We also sponsor a Writing Partners program through which you can meet weekly with a peer tutor to develop your writing skills."</p>

<p>There’s not a whole lot of difference between these two schools.</p>

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<p>Instead of answering the questions I posed, or perhaps explaining why they don’t need to be answered, you go ahead and make a personal attack on me. Anyway, if you were at all familiar with my posting history at CC, you’d know I am probably not representative of the typical Swarthmore alum.</p>

<p>Hmm. A general question posed to all: what’s the difference between Haverford’s freshman writing seminars and Swarthmore’s first-year seminars? (Or Bryn Mawr’s Emily Balch seminars?)</p>