Swat vs. Haverford

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
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<p>Swarthmore’s First-Year Seminars are designed to be small (usually capped at 12), interactive seminars to get first year students immediately engaged in boutique-scale classroom interaction with close contact with a faculty member. In other words, to get new students a taste of upperclass Swarthmore seminars, instead of just large intro courses with 30 students.</p>

<p>FYS courses may or may not be designated as “writing” courses, of which Swarthmore students are required to take at least three for graduation. A designated “writing” course has mandatory draft, review, conference, rewrite sequences for the written assignments. The review may be done by the professor or may be done by one of the student WA’s assigned to the course (a key premise of Swarthmore’s Writing Across the Curriculum program).</p>

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<p>not all swat freshman seminars are ‘writing courses’, they’re just small discussion based classes meant to get freshmen out of their shells and interacting with faculty. I took a really excellent one in physics (that’s unfortunately been taken out because it was ‘too intense’). writing courses at swat aren’t necessarily the ones with the most writing either, they’re just the ones where you are forced to use the writing associates. while I agree with interesteddad that the swat writing program is a great thing, I honestly never used it unless I had to. </p>

<p>re intensity at swarthmore: yes… I think I spent more time studying there than any friend oh mine that went to any other school. there is a ton of self-imposed stress there and misery poker, but students are really collaborative and non-competitive, and the school does a good job of down-playing the importance of grades. this environment is not for everyone, I had some friends that needed to take semesters off to recuperate/regain sanity, and I think more swatties take years off between undergrad and grad school for that same purpose than people that go to other schools. but on the other hand, I think swarthmore’s intensity prepared me for graduate school much better than any other place could have.</p>

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<p>AE, I know people from both schools and people who were accepted to both schools. Both are top 10 LAC’s. I am not a student at either. There is very little difference academically- its like Harvard saying its better than Yale. Or, for that matter, saying Williams is better than Swarthmore. And its certainly not Lakers-Clippers difference. </p>

<p>If you would like stats, 87% of Swarthmore students were top 10% in high school; 91% of Haverford students were top 10%. The middle 50 percentile of Haverford students got a 1960 - 2230 on the SAT; the middle 50 of Swarthmore students got 2010 - 2280. According to an earlier poster, many students chose Haverford over Swarthmore. And yes, that means Haverford students are “as bright” as Swarthmore students (at least academically)- applicants were admitted to both schools. </p>

<p>The reason Swarthmore is ranked ahead in US News is because of endowment (apparently part of this discussion). Theres no need for a superiority complex.</p>

<p>And interesteddad, saying the social “starts with diversity” is ridiculous. You can have 10 people from 10 different countries, but if they are all shy its not gunna be much fun, is it? Seeing as you’re not a student, you can’t really comment on the social aspect of the school, which is what the op was saying when he specifically pointed you out. In fact, many posters have mutually agreed that Haverford is more laid-back than Swarthmore (yes, that is important to a social scene, and far more important than diversity IMO). </p>

<p>Try to help the op make a decision without being completely biased. Both are great schools. I don’t think a bad decision can be made here.</p>

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<p>One minor point to consider, Swarthmore stands alone whereas H has a strong relationship with Bryn Mawr, creating a little broader social experience. Yes, the van runs between all three campuses and students do have the option to take classes at Penn, but most of the cross college action is between H and bryn Mawr. H is also in a little busier location with a bunch of colleges within a couple of miles, on the other hand if you like feel part of a small suburban town S is certainly that. You can even join the fire department.</p>

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<p>Being one of those posters who agree that Haverford is more laid-back than Swarthmore, I nevertheless disagree that being laid-back is important to the social scene. It merely implies that the culture is more easygoing–but a bunch of people not stressing cheerfully over workload does not equal a “better” social scene. Those people could just as easily be off doing their own thing in all different directions, or sleeping instead of socializing.</p>

<p>“Social scene” is such a subjective term that I hesitate to attempt a differential characterization of either school’s–especially when one expands the definition beyond “parties with alcohol,” as I assume is the case here.</p>

<p>Haverford and Bryn Mawr definitely have a very close relationship, with some academic departments even split. Socially, this can become tense for the girls. With regard to surrounding town–Haverford, PA is just as boring as Swarthmore, PA, is just as boring as Bryn Mawr, PA. All three are essentially identical Main Line surburbs.</p>

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<p>Like I said, I’m not a student at either one, and I’m sure Swarthmore does have a social scene- in fact, both schools probably have around the same in terms of parties and the like, but doesn’t laid-back imply that students stress less over academics? If I stay up all night doing a paper, I would probably rather sleep than go out. How does that not effect social life?</p>

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<p>Well, for one, I would characterize Williams as laid-back, but I wouldn’t characterize it as less academically stressful. A Williams poster once characterized it as a duck gliding smoothly along but paddling furiously underwater.</p>

<p>It seems to me that at Swarthmore particularly, students tend to mix academics and social life–i.e. writing a paper in the common room. But that is digressing into a specific “kind” of social scene; my general point was that being laid-back does not necessarily imply wanting to socialize with other people–and you’re probably also still stressing out over academics, just not publicly.</p>

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<p>Not only is it not “ridiculous”, I don’t believe it is even possible to discuss Swarthmore College in 2010 without considering the extreme diversity in admissions and in the student body.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I don’t believe you can say that Swarthmore is “very similar” to any lily-white low-diversity liberal arts college.</p>

<p>And, as an additional furthermore, comparing the top 10% or SAT scores of a “lily-white” liberal arts college to Swarthmore’s, without considering the diversity at Swarthmore will lead to misleading comparisons. Think, for a second, what Swarthmore’s “stats” would be like if they enrolled more rich white kids to maximize their tuition revenue as many liberal arts colleges do…</p>

<p>62% of Swarthmore’s acceptance letters this year went to US minority students or internationals. You have to think about that number to understand Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>Swat’s ethnic diversity was definitely something that stood out for me in comparison with a lot of other liberal arts colleges. as a student of color from a very ethnically diverse city and high school, i wanted a diverse student body. unfortunately, swat’s not too diverse in people’s political thoughts and things like that (i.e. mostly very liberal). more than a few ppl here complain about it. I hope the admissions office knows it and will help change that. and yes, Swat sort of has a social scene, but it’s hard to describe. It’s not a very big social scene, but it varies from person to person.</p>

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<p>Swarthmore’s admitted student weekend, Ride the Tide, was very diverse. I exaggerate, but it seemed like 50% of the white people I met were white Hispanics/of mixed race, and half of the other half was otherwise hooked (e.g. Questbridge girl from Nebraska).</p>

<p>I agree that Swarthmore lacks in political diversity. However, I doubt the admissions office wants to change that, because an increase in conservative-minded students would probably lead to a decrease in Swarthmore’s (Quaker, hence very liberal) brand of social justice. For example, many of the cultural groups have “closed” membership to create a safe space for self-identifying students; whatever you may think of the concept, it is solidly liberal and sanctioned by the administration.</p>

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<p>I may be going to Haverford and my best friend has already sent in his deposit for Swarthmore. Are we going to immediately start hating one another after matriculating or is it a slow process?</p>

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<p>People at all elite colleges complain that “everyone is liberal”. What? Do you think there are a lot of Sarah Palin fans among the faculty and students at Harvard in the People’s Republic of Cambridge? They don’t even think Ali G is funny.</p>

<p>Somebody in the last few years did a check of the voter rolls in Williamstown, MA and couldn’t find a single registered Republican on the faculty. My guess, and it’s just a hunch, is that Haverford is not a hotbed of conservatism. </p>

<p>Heck, just look at College Confidential. Stroll over to the parents forum and post something about how much you admire Sarah Palin. Put on your flame-resistant fire suit first.</p>

<p>It goes with the territory. You are supposed to be a wide-eyed liberal in colleges. Youv’e got the entire rest of your life to see the folly of your ways and turn into a crusty old conservative!</p>

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<p>Oh, you’ll probably hate your friend the first time he yells “safety school” at you during a Haverford/Swat soccer game.</p>

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<p>Interested…</p>

<p>I go to a high school that is 32% white (I am white). I have black friends, asian friends, and a lot of hispanic friends… I also have white friends. I have white friends that go to schools that are 70% white. I think their social life is perfectly normal and not any worse than mine. So yes, it is ridiculous. You’re trying to define a social atmosphere by statistics, or race, and that is not how social atmospheres work. When I choose friends, I do not think “I need more Asian friends.” I choose friends based on who they are as an individual. I’m not friends, however, with arrogant people that think they are inherently smarter than everyone else because of what school they go to or how much money they make.</p>

<p>Swarthmore’s “stats” would be exactly the same if they accepted all rich white students, with the exception of tuition revenue… but Swarthmore is rich anyway- we already established that. Unless you are trying to point out there is a greater percentage of rich, white students that do well in school or on SAT’s or in school, but Swarthmore’s “diverse” students are just as smart as the rich, white students, so that makes no sense.</p>

<p>Academically, both Haverford and Swarthmore are elite institutions. Professors at both schools are amazing. I do not really understand why this is so hard to swallow. I can understand you having the opinion that Swarthmore is better, but to say it is not close, or Swarthmore “is in a higher league” is silly.</p>

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<p>santeria - Swarthmore’s “diverse” students are NOT statistically identical to “rich, white students.” That much should be patently obvious. Prioritizing diversity means lowering statistical targets–this generalization is also patently false on the individual level, but a simple glance at the percentages of URMs scoring in the highest SAT range will tell you that URMs as a demographic have lower scores than their white (or Asian) peers. In any case, stats are only one tool of many in determining “smartness”–whatever that means.</p>

<p>A social atmosphere is not subjectively better for an individual student by being more diverse. However, it is objectively better because from a societal viewpoint, students benefit from having a diverse group of friends–which is more likely to happen if their community is diverse. You, as an individual, may or may not care about such social engineering.</p>

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To my limited recollection, only A.E. disputes this assertion.</p>

<p>I think that ID is trying to say something very simple, in complicated words backed up with data: yes, Swarthmore and Haverford are both elite academic institutions with amazing professors and high-level students. Aside from subjective differences in “vibe,” one major difference between the two is that Swarthmore has more money to spend, which manifests in the many small things–a world-class writing program, more spacious/newer dorms, an exceptionally diverse student body. (As much as you love talking about it, ID, the writing program isn’t really a core mission that would dramatically change Swarthmore if it received less funding.)</p>

<p>Do the little things matter? If you can’t decide between two schools, then absolutely. But IMO, many of these X vs. Y threads are begun with a predetermined emotional bias; I believe very strongly that if you’re looking at two affordable schools and you like one better, just go to it already. </p>

<p>Or, if you’re looking at two schools and only one is affordable, just go to it already. </p>

<p>Then, if you’re looking at two affordable schools and you honestly don’t know which one you like best, it’s pertinent to consider which will offer you the most resources and small luxuries–both of which tend to correlate with how much money the school has to spend. There are exceptions–Haverford, for instance, may have the edge in medical research, though I’ve only skimmed the news on that front. But if you’re definitely going to be a humanities major, that matters zilch.</p>

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<p>Oh, I’m very well aware of how incredibly talented Swarthmore diverse student body is.</p>

<p>I am also very well aware that, if you want high SAT averages, you enroll a higher percentage of rich white students and a lower percentage of first-generation college students and minority students. One of the big complaints about SATs is that they correlate so strongly with ethnicity and family income. It’s no big secret.</p>

<p>Again, Swarthmore is one of the most diverse elite colleges on the East coast. It actually is, I believe, **the **most diverse co-ed college or university in the northeast. Its diversity percentages are even higher than Harvard’s, the most diverse Ivy. I simply reject the notion that you can make valid comparisons between Swarthmore and other liberal arts colleges without starting with the diversity statistics. This is a definiing characteristic of Swarthmore College in the 21st century and it impacts almost every aspect of the College. I personally think it’s one of Swarthmore’s great strengths, but I understand how it’s not going to be everybody’s cup of tea. For example, Swarthmore seems less “preppy” than Haverford or Davidson because it **is **less preppy. It seems less “white” than Haverford because it **is **much less white. For example, it is 17% Asian American compared to 10% at Haverford. 7% international compared to 3%.</p>

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<p>^Also of note: Swarthmore’s exceptional diversity probably also contributes to its exceptional liberalism. Minorities and internationals, IIRC, tend to be more liberal than their white peers.</p>

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<p>I disagree. I think Swarthmore’s core mission is the best undergrad educational program in the United States combined with an emphasis on diversity and social justice. It is dozens of student-centered programs (such as writing associates and honors and many others) that make Swarthmore’s undergrad educational program so exceptional. It’s the degree of academic engagement, both faculty and students. It’s the collaborative culture. It’s the Lang Center. It’s the library. It’s the sum of many, many different things, each of which benefit from the high priority placed on student-centric programs and the available funding.</p>

<p>It’s things like the writing program that make Swarthmore just that much better academically than other excellent liberal arts colleges. You have never heard me say anything bad about Haverford’s academics. I never have. I think it’s an excellent school. I push Haverford all the time on College Confidential. I think most students interested in top LACs should seriously consider Haverford for many of the same reasons that I think they should consider Swarthmore. It’s not Swarthmore.</p>

<p>To me, the interesting questions are Haverford or Bowdoin, Haverford or Claremont McKenna, Haverford or Davidson. If someone understands the differences in resources at Swarthmore and Haverford and is still leaning towards Haverford (with acceptances in hand from both), then they simply made an “I just like it better” decision. I would be crazy to argue with that. If they aren’t comfortable with Swarthmore, whether it’s the academic intensity or the diversity or the pollen in the Fragrance Garden, then I don’t think they should choose Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>But, in theory, Swarthmore (and other top schools) receive so many applications from so many qualified students that even minority applications have high scores and grades. The minorities being accepted also have 2100 SATs, or whatever the average is. </p>

<p>And yes, I know that Swarthmore particularly emphasizes diversity. One of my best friends, who is hispanic, was actually flown to Swarthmore for free. But I stand by my opinion that this is hardly a criteria to choose between two schools- like ^^ said, gut feeling and comfort is more important. When its down to two good academic schools, its wherever you feel you will be happiest.</p>

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<p>ID, Keilealexandra is making essentially the same point as you, but in a more nuanced and less combative way. It seems that this discussion has veered from something helpful into a ****ing contest.</p>