Switching from Engineering to Music (Film Scoring) - Need advice

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>Hi everyone, </p>

<p>I really need some advice urgently because I'll have to make important decisions very soon. I am sorry as this is a long post but I have to explain most of the things.</p>

<p>I'm a final-year Mechanical Engineering undergraduate student at one of the internationally well known universities in France (Paris).</p>

<p>Last year I was 2nd in our ranking and I'm going to receive my degree at a young age (19). So I think I have time to make radical study changes.</p>

<p>However, I've always had great passion for classical music and film scores, so that I started making my own music since 3 years ago (primarily during summer holidays when I had free time).</p>

<p>I dedicate most of my free time to music, and recently I decided to go to a good music college after I finish my undergrad degree in Engineering. It is very often that I spend 10 hours a day making music using DAWs and sample libraries and I sometimes post them online. However I never get tired because I truly like such genres of music.</p>

<p>I received no formal education whatsoever and I learnt everything by myself. I have a very good knowledge of music softwares and regarding the composition of my tracks, they're not boring or cheap, but I do lack education in formal stuff like Solfeg,Harmony etc. To be honest I can't even read music very well, I'm very very basic at it. Yet, when I showed a work of mine to a private teacher, he told me that this is something intended for very large orchestras and that it's very complicated, yet at that time I couldn't even read music and he was really surprised by that. He believed that it is very possible to well learn an instrument without a teacher or formal education, but to make music for very large orchestras as an autodidact isn't very usual. </p>

<p>To wrap it up, I have 5 months in order to take private lessons in order to prepare myself for college auditions. I'm trying to study film scoring (like the undergrad program in Berklee) and the only thing which depresses me is my weak "formal" background in music, otherwise I really believe in hard work and myself.</p>

<p>So am I wasting my time and energy or should I take it serious? Can someone who learnt by ear and mind, enter a prestigious music college? Any advice would be very useful.</p>

<p>Thank you!</p>

2

<p>Do you play an instrument at all? Do you program any of the sounds you use in your compositions, or are you strictly reliant on libraries?</p>

<p>And would you be willing to consider private lessons, comp lessons, and some theory during a gap year before applying? (I would think that would give you the best chance, frankly, for an admit at the kind of program you might want.)</p>

<p>I don’t necessarily recommend going into a “film scoring” undergrad program without first mastering undergrad level of composition, personally, but that is perhaps a bias caused by a proclivity to skill-building…then application ;)</p>

<p>With your eng background, however, you might enjoy the program my son just graduated from at University of Michigan, Performing Arts Technology (PAT) which has a version that is part composition, part engineering and part interactive/media programming. (There are four versions, one is a BMUS, two are BFA and one is BSc eng)</p>

<p>It might be an outlier, but with the ENG undergrad degree and a SUPER portfolio, they could conceivably overlook the theory/comp deficit, but you absolutely do have to submit a sample of you soloing on an instrument with the portfolio. – Which is why I asked about an instrument.</p>

<p>In the portfolio, you would also need to submit an original, WRITTEN score, the score performed and captured and mixed, some CREATED samples, other programming examples, and in the case of the Eng version, a min. 3-instrument simultaneous stereo capture and mix, I believe. Here’s a link, in case you’re interested: [UM</a> School of Music, Theatre & Dance - Department of Performing Arts Technology - Degree Programs](<a href=“http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/pat/programs.htm]UM”>http://www.music.umich.edu/departments/pat/programs.htm)</p>

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<p>Have you considered getting involved with IRCAM while you’re in Paris - either as an intern or a student?</p>

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<p>Lots of engineers and computer science majors get involved with music, but often digital music, electroacoustic composition, music technology- these terms seem to mean different things for different people.</p>

<p>What kind of engineering background do you have? Do you do programming? Have you been exposed to Max, SuperCollider? Have you done any film work yet?</p>

<p>There are even grad programs that might consider you depending on your background.</p>

<p>However, it would seem that you prefer a more traditional, foundational classical curriculum, which may be the smartest preparation to move on to some of the programs I am thinking of. just as examples, not necessarily relevant, check out Brown’s MEME program, or School of Art Institute of Chicago, or anything that kmcmom suggests :)</p>

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<p>Just saw this announcement of a Coursera free online class from Cal Arts called Introduction to Programming for Musicians and Digital Artists <a href="https://www./course/chuck101%5B/url%5D">https://www./course/chuck101</a>
“The course, lecture, and examples build on each other to teach the fundamentals of programming in general (logic, loops, functions, objects, classes) and also deals with advanced topics including multi-threading, events and signals. Throughout the course, students create meaningful and rewarding expressive digital “instruments” that make sound and music in direct response to program logic. The ChucK language provides precise high-level control over time, audio computation, and user interface elements (track pad, joysticks, etc.). ChucK is used (unknowingly in most cases, via SMule Apps) by millions of users throughout the world, and is the backbone of dozens of academic programs and laptop orchestras. Learning to program using ChucK, through the musical examples provided in this course, will prepare students to program in C++, Java, and other languages. There will be special guest lectures from creators of the ChucK language, Dr. Ge Wang (Stanford University) and Dr. Perry R. Cook (Princeton University).”</p>

<p>So far, everyone I know who has taken one of the Coursera courses has been really happy with them. They’re taught by well known, well-respected professors in the field.</p>

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<p>I worked with ChucK quite a bit last year in my electronic music courses and for my own projects. Learning the basic functions doesn’t take long, and there’s quite a bit you can do with the program. I find it easier to wrap my head around than Max/MSP, but there are some tasks that are more natural to do in one as a opposed to the other, so there are advantages of knowing both. If you’re already doing work in engineering and are interested in electronic music, it sounds like a logical next step! ChucK is free; Max is more expensive, but they do have a student rate for a year, if I’m remembering correctly.</p>

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<p>There are a number of good Chuck references and forums online, too.</p>

<p>[ChucK</a> : Unit Generators Reference](<a href=“http://chuck.cs.princeton.edu/doc/program/ugen.html]ChucK”>ChucK : Unit Generators Reference)</p>

<p>[ChucK</a> - [Programmer’s Reference]](<a href=“http://chuck.cs.princeton.edu/doc/program/]ChucK”>ChucK | Programmer's Reference)</p>

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<p>^I thought the Max/MSP license issued to students was a lifetime license for $250…or have they changed this model?</p>

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<p>Let me thank all of you for your help, I highly appreciate it.</p>

<p>Well I only play the Keyboard/Piano but I never tried to learn how to play them as a pianist, I do know how to play a few medium-difficulty pieces on the piano but I never put music sheet in front of myself and try to play it. Actually when it comes to making tracks I always choose a scale, play melodies and notes for various instruments and put them inside the DAW as midi and then use samples libraries and so on. I always use sample libraries but I never programmed my sounds in terms of making them from scratch, or making my own libraries (which takes a lot of time). However I do play and tweak a lot with my sounds, layer them and etc.</p>

<p>I think I’ll have around 5 months before the auditions (which mostly start around February), and meanwhile I can take private/collective classes, which I will. But I’ll also have my university so I don’t have all the day available to learn music. I neither can’t have a one year gap just to study music because it is too risky (There are universities in Paris where I can go easily but their music programs aren’t good at all and I prefer to go for a Master in Acoustics, study something else in better universities or try hard to get into a good music school in Paris which isn’t easy as they have entry exams).</p>

<p>Whether I go for an undergrad in composition or film scoring, I really want to get into film scoring at the end. By the way Berklee offers an undergrad in film scoring, isn’t that more suitable for me compared to composition?</p>

<p>I also checked the program in Michigan that you mentioned, I’ll take a deeper look at it but It’s not really what I want since it’s more geared towards sound engineering and Elec. engineering (I’m Mechanical! :D)</p>

<p>Could you explain what you mean by a super portfolio; For instance I can speak three languages fluently and have good knowledge of a forth one, but is this what they search for? I hope they consider these as advantages.</p>

<p>Lastly, since you have more information about music than me, do you mind If I send you links to two of my works (privately) to tell me how big my chances are. Again, sorry for the long posts.</p>

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<p>Regarding IRCAM, I just checked out their site and they have no internships available, though I’ll contact them directly by e-mail for more information. However, even if they have internship positions, I assume they’re more for people pursuing a master’s degree or a PhD.</p>

<p>In our last year, we have at least one month of internship to do and I’ll try to find one somewhere (U.S. probably) that relates Mechanics and Music, but I don’t think I’ll have an easy time doing that.</p>

<p>Our physics program is more geared towards the classics (Thermodynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Acoustic Waves and…) and I don’t know what type of programming we’re going to do during the third year, but until know we’ve done Java, C & Matlab. I haven’t done film work yet but people contact me and ask if they can use my music for their video games, ads and … but they all suddenly disappear :expressionless: I just had a friend who used a mediocre music of mine in a promotional video for a game patch (Lord of the Rings:RotWK), it is on GameReplays.org. My recent works are way better.</p>

<p>Before deciding to apply for music colleges, I previously wanted to apply for Acoustic master’s programs in the U.S (Rochester, Stanford,Peabody and others) and in spite of the interest I have in these programs, I find music itself more interesting.</p>

<p>I am interested in the technological side of music (like the ChucK program you proposed); after all it’s what I do in my computer which has led me to consider music colleges, but I want a classic composition/film scoring program to be my main curriculum. However If I see that by going to one of these technological programs I will be able to switch to a composition program, then I might consider it. Some people also spoke about getting into university programs (Harvard, Yale) and then going to a music college. Can anyone tell me if this is a good idea?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>I just sent you a PM, but will respond here now that I’ve seen your response for the benefit of future posters who might happen along with similar questions.</p>

<p>Re: Portfolio – the University of Michigan program I was referring to only admits students by portfolio, wherein they want a package that includes an original written score (printed), a fully produced recording of your composition, a recording of you on an instrument, an instrumentation of a bach fugue, sampled sounds you have programmed, and for the D curriculum, a live sound capture and mix IN STEREO of a minimum 3-piece band…plus additional examples of your musicality, including a resume of your performance or multimedia experience, whether digital or on traditional instrument. </p>

<p>If you’re most interested in a Masters since you already have an undergrad degree, you might be an excellent candidate for Stanford’s Masters in Music, Science and Technology. While it does involve signal processing , synthesis, and intermedia, it does NOT require auditions and indeed encourages applications from engineers.
Here’s a link to check it out: <a href=“https://ccrma.stanford.edu/academics/masters[/url]”>Masters Program | CCRMA;
That might be a bit more technical than you were looking for, but if you were to pursue that program plus take private composition lessons, I think you’d be in good shape for game and intermedia scoring.</p>

<p>Perhaps the closest post-grad fit would be The University of Southern California Thornton School of Music/Cinema Art’s post-graduate CERTIFICATE PROGRAM (not a masters) that is a bit pricey considering no degree is conferred, but which has a lot of value in terms of industry networking. Most of the applicants to that program, however, will likely be graduates of undergrad composition programs, but it might be worth a shot. Here’s the requirements for it:</p>

<p>

</code></pre>

<p>I hope that gives you a few ideas to pursue. If you can afford another undergrad degree in terms of time and money, something specific like Berkley might be a good fit, or something really general like even a BA pursuit of composition might give you the extra experience you’re looking for in terms of music.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the help kmcmom, I did receive your PM.</p>

<p>An instrumentation of a Bach Fugue? Why would they want that? To be honest after researching more about the auditions and the requirements of different colleges I’m starting to get the feeling that most of these are just useless filters, put in place because of the high number of applicants.</p>

<p>Whether I apply for music colleges or not, I am going to apply for the Acoustic and Music Technology Master’s programs anyway; which are related to my current field of study; like the Acoustic programs in Peabody, RPI, Stanford and etc. I still have to wait more but I think a safer passage would be to get into one of these Master’s programs, then after graduation I could use the people that I’ve met there to get into a composition program and meanwhile I can take private composition classes. But that would equally be a terrible idea since I will be jumping around different fields. That’s really going to make my future unsafe.</p>

<p>There are some other options though I’ll have to be cautious. If anyone else here is from a music department then an advice would be very helpful.</p>

<p>I sent a mail to a professor in Berklee (quite long), hope he gets back to me! :D</p>

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<p>Not being a composition parent I can’t speak as a total expert, but from what I know of the composition students I met the kind of programs you are talking about usually require the student be grounded in theory and reading music and such, if you are talking classical composition (I can’t talk about film scoring as a major, that could be very different). If your heart is on trying classical composition, I liked what another poster said, maybe take a gap year, intensively get background in theory, bolster your music reading and piano skills, and then apply (wouldn’t hurt to study composition with a private teacher as well, get some background in it, have something to show). </p>

<p>Not all film composers go the classical composition route, Michael Giacinno (JJ Abrams house composer <em>lol</em>) , who I believe studied film production, but then took night courses in music at Juilliard and later UCLA…so there may not be one path. </p>

<p>My personal take is the gap year would be good, seeing if the path you seek is for you, if you are into the music theory and such that comes with studying composition. If you could finish an mechanical engineering degree at 19, if you are passionate about composition I bet with some grounding a gap year could give you might be able to make it happen:).</p>

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<p>Film scoring is not a safe career path, or for the faint of heart. Also, getting a degree in film scoring is not going to secure work. You don’t need a doctorate, or even a masters to be one of the few successful film composers. If you’re looking for a safe path, this isn’t it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, sound and music for the gaming industry might be easier to break into.</p>

<p>If you’re super successful, brilliant, charismatic, terrific at networking and schmoozing - you needn’t even know how to write music to compose film scores - you’ll hire an entire staff to orchestrate your ideas for you.</p>

<p>But really, there’s no excuse at this point for you not to learn to read and write music - if you can speak four languages and you’re good at math. It’s just another set of patterns to learn. And you needn’t go to school to do so. Just get a teacher, if you need one, or find an online class, or teach yourself. And you can start taking composition lessons right away, as well.</p>

<p>Btw. do you have any financial concerns? The programs you’ve been referencing in the US are all very expensive. Is there some reason you can’t study any of these things in France? Or elsewhere in the EU?</p>

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<p>I think the acoustic and music technology type of programs sound like a good idea.</p>

<p>But if you don’t do that, in terms of composition: I think you should forget about film scoring or even a vocational choice for now.</p>

<p>People spend years studying music history, musicology, theory/solfege but you are right, there are people who can compose brilliantly without these studies. Nevertheless, if you want to be a composer, I think you need to catch up on some of those formal music skills.You are obviously bright, and young, and it is very possible. Have some private lessons in composition and in piano/theory (some teachers will combine these) and see where it takes you.</p>

<p>Even for an undergrad music school you will need to submit a portfolio of 3-4 pieces, most of them played by live musicians, though some electronic pieces might be allowed, depending on the program. The requirements that kmcmon described are not useless filters. You need to become more knowledgeable about music to really progress as a composer who can function flexibly in many contexts.</p>

<p>You may be able to enter a BA program in music for a second bachelor’s, and that might be a way to go since you are young, and if money is not an issue. Many master’s and PhD programs are very competitive, and you may need to work hard to get up to speed.</p>

<p>In the meantime, check out the Stanford program mentioned above, Browns MEME, USC Thornton, Berkeley, and see how you think you might fit - now or after some interlude. </p>

<p>I do think, if you are involved in music at all for the future, you will feel insecure without doing some of this work, and having real substance behind whatever flash you bring to the table :)</p>

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<p>You can learn to read music in one day.</p>

<p>Costs between schools in France and private schools in the USA are huge. French schools are very cheap (often less that $2,000 per year). Berklee and similar schools will be around $40,000 per year, just for tuition.</p>

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<p>AIliens, the Bach fugue instrumentation is to see if the applicant can take a relatively simple piece of music and create something interesting out of it via electronic instrumentation/arrangement. Because it is a Bach fugue, it “levels” the playing field a bit to compare candidates choices in approach and outcome, which is harder to do with a candidate’s original music. This particular program is a BFA degree, (or it can be a BMus) meaning it is an applied studio curriculum that is more hands on than a typical academic/BA program, so it is geared to those already practicing the talents they want to hone. Only a handful of applicants are accepted. So to a degree, the exercise helps screen to an extent for ones capacity to read and interpret music and then apply the innate sense of instrumentation, the latter of which I do not doubt that you have in spades having listened to your works in progress. </p>

<p>I think, for example, you could make short work of the exercise. The larger issue in the case of that program and a few programs like it is that theory is delivered at a very high degree of rigor and even students who have been principals in wind ensembles for years are often told to bone up on theory and writing before undertaking this work.</p>

<p>I believe that is because ultimately, it is collaborative work. So let me give you and example from a different discipline. I know several self-taught programmers who can be downright brilliant. In fact, I employ one such. It has taken us 13 years to drill into him the documentation habits required to work collaboratively…and I’m not sure we’re there yet :)</p>

<p>Possessing a command of theory and its inherent conferring of the capacity to write music ( or “communicate”) your musical ideas is to some degree the difference between a savant and a professional.</p>

<p>You clearly have the talent. You’d like to become a professional. I feel if you’re willing to learn the language (and it doesn’t need to be via a degree…though that is shorthand to communicate that you know it) there would be nothing to stop you :slight_smile: To do otherwise would form a handicap you need not have in a competitive world, though sometimes those long odds do pay off!</p>

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<p>Again, kmcmom really knows what she is talking about, and I love the distinction between savant and professional. As I try to learn about this field, I really appreciate reading her posts.</p>

<p>Ironically, my daughter is looking at programs in Europe, so maybe you and she could switch apartments! She especially loves Paris :)</p>

<p>Seriously, it is tough when you don’t fit the mold, but it sounds like you have a lot of talent, so I hope you can persevere somehow. Anything you want to do is fully possible at this stage, I believe.</p>

<p>Perhaps finding a private teacher who is finely attuned to what you can do, don’t know how to do, and want to do would help, not only prepare you but advise you.</p>

<p>I will PM you a list of programs that my daughter has compiled. She is about to graduate from Harvard with a BA in music, focused on composition, with a newly discovered love of electroacoustic work. She is not great at theory, not great at anything technological (but is learning, albeit with struggle), but has a certain gift for writing music, so you are not the only one who is a little out of the box . (You might love Harvard, by the way.)</p>

<p>I really do think that having the foundational skills, somehow, will help you gain access to the best programs, and give you flexibility of choice for future work.</p>

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<p>Hey everyone, thanks that you’re trying to help me out with this as it is a tough decision to make.</p>

<p>Well I’m definitely going to complete my undergrad degree, so any one year gap would be after graduation and I’m not going to take the risk of halting my studies for something that I’m not certain about. After all, I was planning on going to a music college with some sort of scholarship (which I doubt that they give me one, considering my background), or an assistantship so that I give some music-related Physics courses to some students of the college. I’m not sure that I’m going to be accepted, neither get funds so I’m not willing to take the risk of having relatively wasted a year.</p>

<p>However, this year I will take private courses and I’ll do my best to advance in different fields of music. I am going to take a closer look at the more technical music undergrads (Synthesis, Mixing & …) which are more Math/Physics related (the ones that are not too science heavy like Acoustics which has a lot of math in it) and then consider doing an undergrad degree in one of these fields then move into composition/film scoring. Though that would take 6 years, longer than getting a PhD, and If I plan on going to a grad school studying Acoustics, which is still my first priority and my first plan (RPI, PennState, Peabody, Stanford), then I don’t think it would be wise to seriously try getting into a music college after a Master’s degree in Acoustics. Instead I will try to find a job and of course make music as a second professional activity. </p>

<p>Although my principal intention of going to a good music school is not only to have a solid education, but to find good and solid contacts which assure a stable and strong linking to the music industry. It is interesting that since one month (that I’ve put only two tracks online), I’ve received two requests; one for a promotional video, another for a game trailer and yesterday I just got an offer to score a whole film. Now these aren’t Battlefield 3 and The Dark Knight, but it’s a good start I believe.</p>

<p>@ compmom, I really appreciate that you’ve sent me the list and I’ll precisely study the programs included in it. Tell your daugher that Paris is a great city for tourists, but it’s not the same if you decide to study/live in it :smiley: Tell her that most of the top music schools and conservatories in France have entry exams (Concours) and it’s somehow easier to get into US schools, if she’s sedulous.</p>

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<p>“It is interesting that since one month (that I’ve put only two tracks online), I’ve received two requests; one for a promotional video, another for a game trailer and yesterday I just got an offer to score a whole film. Now these aren’t Battlefield 3 and The Dark Knight, but it’s a good start I believe.”</p>

<p>This is definitely a great start. Who knows what can happen for you over the years. I do want to say again that there are electroacoustic grad programs that are geared more to programming and math, science. With a little more music education you could have access to some of these, I’ll bet, especially with some of your recent successes.</p>

<p>But studying acoustics and doing music on the side may end up being a really good way to go.</p>

<p>Mainly, I think we on the forum want to wish you good luck in whatever path you choose, and that your talents be fulfilled in whatever way they can.</p>