And I beg to differ with your begging to differ. I’ve known too many people who did the same type of thing that those frat guys did while in their late teens - early twenties, and they turned out to be perfectly well-adjusted. Again, they were having fun with it because they knew it was stupid, not because they actually believed what they were saying.
Please, let’s stop assuming that anyone who makes a joke about women hates women, or anyone who makes a joke about blacks hates blacks, or anyone who makes a joke about Jews hates Jews. Rodney Dangerfield used to crack jokes about his wife endlessly, yet nobody accused him or hating or disrespecting his wife.
Even if the words and actions didn’t reflect deeply held beliefs, they were harmful.
And it’s not about “can other young men be even worse”.
Fraternities are at a turning point. The kids in it (and their alumni) may not recognize it but most national officials and colleges do.
It’s not about “hating” blacks, or jews, or women, or gays. It’s about an attitude. A way of viewing the world. And if you think the treatment of these groups and others in our society is just hunky-dory, there isn’t much more one can say.
@bhs1978 My use of the word amusing in the other thread was not at all meant in a “oh how cute” way. I thought that was evident by comparing her actions to Westboro (another group I don’t support even if it is free speech) and other things I said about that situation, but apparently it didn’t always come across that way, so I’m clarifying here.
It is not about a “fear of offending someone.” It is about being mindful of your words and actions. It is about looking inside yourself and identifying your own biases. Everyone has them. All races, creeds, religions, genders, etc. You can “fear” the push back you may get if you talk without thinking if you’d like, but many prefer to learn from it.
@sylvan8798 Why don’t you explain what you mean by “It’s about an attitude. A way of viewing the world.” Does that mean everyone has to have the same attitude as you, and view the world the same way you do? Do you think anyone who doesn’t conform to your way of thinking should somehow be censured?
When did I say everything was hunky-dory? I do think things would be better if everyone stopped assuming the worst intentions every time they heard something they didn’t like.
It is pointing out the difference between doing (e.g. joining a voluntary membership organization and participating in its activities) and being (e.g. being a member of a particular race or ethnicity).
Disliking an action (e.g. stupidity as exhibited in this incident) is different from disliking someone for being (e.g. a member of a particular race or ethnicity). In the former case, those doing the act can stop doing it and try to make amends. In the latter case, there is no compromise since someone cannot change those aspects of himself or herself.
@ucbalumnus Thanks for the explanation. My comment had been based on the bashing of fraternities in general, rather than the specific action of the fraternity members in the video. The former was what I was referring to when I said people were resorting to lazy stereotypes.
@bhs1978 you will have to clarify where anyone said it’s ok for people to be disrespectful of either individuals or groups of people? If you think I did say that, I would like to take the opportunity to say that I don’t think it is ok.
Whether I think either is ok or not ok is a separate issue from whether I think they should be put into the same box, treated as the same thing. Obviously, some people disagree. That’s fine. I do hope that those people disagreeing do so equally in other very similar situations but I’m not going to be all that upset if they don’t.
I just saw an excerpt of the video on the CBS Evening News. OMG. How ANYBODY could justify that was kidding around is beyond me. Unbelievably horrible. If I were one of those boys’ parents, I think I would yank them out of school and have them do custodial work for a couple of years. And it’s an engineering fraternity! I hope they can’t find work.
@simba9 I also should add that my view of frats/sororities comes from my dad having been in one back in the early 60s and telling me stories of his experiences, my own experience in college opting NOT to join a sorority as I saw what joining them entailed, my own lads going to college and sharing what they see (having not opted to join, but knowing students who do), and students from the high school where I work sharing their stories occasionally when they return from college. Most don’t join so those stories are fewer.
My view of the military comes from being in it back in the 80s.
I will never say things like this didn’t happen. I think we all know they did. I’m merely stating that it’s wrong and will continue to work to teach the next generation why it’s wrong. Fortunately, I’m seeing more in the next generation who comprehend why it’s wrong and are appalled when they see it.
One can have tons of fun without putting other groups of people down for who they are.
I suppose it’s time we start burning a bunch of old media. Lets start with All in the Family and Blazing Saddles. Then all the Don Rickles tapes as well. Eddie Murphy did some “interesting” stuff in his day to, what should we do with him?
Sorry, but it’s pretty clear to me from watching the video that this wasn’t just a bunch of guys trying to make a joke that really wasn’t all that funny. If people want to put their heads in the sand and pretend that’s the case, I guess that’s their prerogative.
The bottom line, however, is that the university doesn’t feel that those students are representing the values they wish to portray. If the school does nothing more than suspend the fraternity, those kids should consider themselves lucky. If the school forces them to attend some sort of sensitivity training, maybe it would do them some good.
Why burn the old media? It’s great to teach from in the same way that slavery is best taught about using original materials (or copies of it anyway). Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. 'Tis much better to learn from it instead. It doesn’t mean we have to go back to living like we’re in the the 50s to 80s - or earlier time periods. Should women not be allowed to vote because historically it wasn’t allowed for so long - tradition and all?
When one finds a better way, switch to it! That could be washing hands once germ theory was figured out (and there were certainly dissenters there too) or it could be realizing that some “common” behaviors are indeed wrong (plus just as hurtful as bacteria can be) and should be stopped.
Do we crucify kids over it? No! (Who among us hasn’t done something dumb at one point or another?) We teach to fill in learning gaps… but there should be consequences too (like sensitivity training). As with any offense, if education doesn’t stop the behavior, then add more consequences. Ignoring what happened and saying “boys will be boys” is the equivalent of encouraging the behavior (wink, wink).
^^^^Really!! Why is everything so extreme. @sciencenerd doesn’t believe these kids should be condemned to a life of misery. (I agree)
Someone else hopes they never get a job. (I disagree)
So because someone hopes that these kids become productive members of society they don’t believe racism is real. So I guess you think that I believe “they’re not minorities so it’s nbd”
Punishing people to force them into “proper” thinking reminds me of the joke about how the floggings will continue until morale improves. Only in this case we seem to have people here who believe that will work.
Agree. Shut down the fraternity for a year or two. Do some education with members and move on. I am sure the message has been heard by that bunch. I am more embarrassed by how factions in our society act with the going for the jugular attitude than I am about clueless people who need a wake-up call.
