Talent level at Northwestern w/o entry auditions

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>When our D chose to apply to NU binding ED over any BFA or Conservatory program, we (D’s family and teachers) were surprised and frankly concerned that in this non-auditioned BA the overall talent level of admitted students would be lower than at the top BFA programs. We had long heard of their top-tier reputation, but didn’t see how they could possibly attract or recognize top talent without auditions.</p>

<p>There was just a post on another thread that expressed a similar concern. I didn’t want to pull that thread further off topic, but I think it’s an issue worth addressing since NU’s system is unique among the top 5-10 MT programs in the country, and we have found that our concern about student talent couldn’t have been more misplaced. D has found that the serious performers at NU have talent on par with any school in the country, not to mention that they’re wicked smart, and NU student results in professional theatre certainly support that.</p>

<p>I’ll address the comments from the other thread in the next post.</p>

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<p>First off, it’s worth pointing out that with 32,000 applicants, top universities like NU could completely fill their incoming class of 2,000 with kids who have perfect test scores and grades and were valedictorians. Yet they don’t. </p>

<p>Instead, they look at applicants holistically, which in the case of Theatre applicants almost certainly means evaluating artistic achievements and recommendations, which are usually a strong indicator of artistic talent. </p>

<p>Having never worked in Admissions, it’s difficult to say if you can tell as much about talent from an Activities List and essays as from a 2 minute audition, but the answer might often be yes. The most serious and talented MT kids I know all have a few key resume items that would show up on the Common Ap and in essays and quickly highlight the fact that they have a special talent. </p>

<p>Second, there are many top theatre schools that philosophically believe that the best actors are smart and well-rounded actors, and it is easy to think of many examples that support that contention. </p>

<p>Third, “talent” in theatre encompasses far more than MT talent. NU’s incoming class of 100 includes some kids with a talent for MT, others who are straight actors, along with talented Directors, Designers, Writers, Stage Managers, Producers, etc. Are there kids in the Theatre program at NU who can’t sing? You bet, just like there are kids in the Drama and Design programs at UMich who can’t sing. Does that mean those kids lack talent or won’t work? </p>

<p>NU’s multi-talented Theatre students go into the world and become leaders in their fields, providing students with an incredible network of successful contacts on both coasts and in every aspect of the professional entertainment industry. This breadth of talents is largely unmatched by any other top MT program. </p>

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<p>A bit off topic, but NU has need-blind admissions, and has among the largest endowments of any school in the world. They commit to meeting 100% of every admitted kid’s demonstrated financial need, and D knows many Caucasian kids getting nearly full rides at NU.</p>

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<p>Looking at the kids I know who are in the incoming class of 2016:</p>

<p>40% of the class of 2016 was admitted binding Early Decision, which means they chose NU over any BFA or Conservatory in the country. You didn’t see any of these kids on the audition trail, but that says nothing of their talent.</p>

<p>We know of 2016 kids who have several Broadway credits, another who has done a solo recital at Carnegie Hall, another who just did a solo NYC Cabaret hosted by Michael Feinstein, etc. Every other class currently enrolled has kids with equally impressive credits. These are all incredibly talented performers who could have chosen among top BFA programs but instead want the unique combination of challenging academics and top Theatre training is unmatched by any other program.</p>

<p>Anyone who (like me) comes to NU expecting to find mediocre talent as a result of their admissions system will, in my experience, be blown away by what they find.</p>

<p>Similarly, anyone who (like me) assumes people end up at NU as a “backup” after being rejected during BFA auditions hasn’t spent much time on campus. </p>

<p>There is a reason the school has the reputation it does, and it’s not due to a lack of talent.</p>

<p>Sorry to spend so much time on this, but it was an issue for me and comes up often so it seemed worth addressing.</p>

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<p>I got drawn over here from the other thread you referred to above.</p>

<p>The best comment I ever saw related to how a non-audition program like NU could have such a strong program with amazing talent said something like: “I don’t know how it works out but it just does”. For all I know momcares is the one who said it. I didn’t take the time to read back to find it but I know it is there.</p>

<p>There is no need nor method to explain why it works out so well at NU as it does. The application process itself doesn’t explain it as there will always be extremely talented kids with great experience and academics who are not admitted as well as kids with activities that reflect a clear interest in theatre who have no real talent and absent an audition, there is no method to discern between them that relates to talent. But a highly coveted school with 400 very smart theatre students moving through the program at any given moment means a good-sized pool of talent to draw from and overlaying fantastic training on top of that, it makes sense that it would work out. “It just does”.</p>

<p>Come to think about it, 400 is only a bit smaller than my daughter’s high school all grades combined and somehow they managed to put on a very good musical every year despite the number of graduates from that school that went on to study MT in college in the last 4 years = exactly 1.</p>

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<p>I think @soozievt might have said that back when I was concerned about the talent level D would find at NU. ;-D</p>

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<p>I think they look for more than “activities that reflect a clear interest in theatre” and instead look for awards and activities that are nationally competitive and DO indicate talent. Most of D’s MT peers at NU have worked professionally (many have Broadway credits before applying), won national awards, attended nationally-competitive summer programs and the like. </p>

<p>She says even beyond the MT sphere every kid she meets had some amazing accomplishments of national significance on their applications – the future playwrites had won national writing competitions, etc.</p>

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<p>As you know, your D’s high school is extraordinary, yet perhaps another example that smart kids (like your D) tend to excel at many things they do!</p>

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<p>^^^I confess, I struggle a bit with understanding how the examples of national competitiveness that you cite have anything to do with the admissions process at NU or any other school but particularly at NU that is admitting a large theatre class of around 100. If they do as you suggest, I’m frankly not surprised that my daughter did not get in but well done on them for finding 100 academically qualified students with national credentials and having them all say “yes”.</p>

<p>You’d have to go awfully deep and ignore much to have national credentials be of great importance. Counting things like Mpulse, Interlochen or similar participation as fair measures of national competitiveness it’s hard to understand how that that translates to admissions decisions. An entire universe of possibilities would drop off on tuition considerations alone and NU must know this. They claim to cast a wide net which suggest they must know that there are plenty of talented kids that do not or cannot participate in those kinds of programs. Ditto for some of the national competitions. Not all schools participate, not all kids are involved and there are only a handful of winners. Broadway credits also require proximity or a willingness to make that a priority as well as talent… and so on. </p>

<p>You could absolutely be right that these things are what admissions at NU looks for and I have no reason to doubt you since you have a daughter at NU and I do not. However from my sample of 1 who has done plenty of work with people with national credits and held her own just fine, I’d be somewhat surprised to think the NU process wasn’t designed in way that includes people without those credentials. It would be important for future applicants to know if that is the case. My daughter wouldn’t have bothered had we known that.</p>

<p>Without sounding that I’m throwing my own daughter under the bus, I’d put money on her lack of national theatre credentials not being the reason that she didn’t get into NU. NU accepted many kids from her HS and also denied many. All of them had the academic credentials to be there and those that were not admitted were left scratching their heads no more or no less than my daughter was. She was the only theatre major scratching but it didn’t itch any more than the next person’s itch. In a highly coveted school, sometimes it just is what it is.</p>

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<p>halflokum - I couldn’t have said it better myself. Sometimes MomCares cares too much and has a tendency to state as fact that which is only her daughter’s small perspective. Most of the kids my daughter knows in both straight theatre and MT did not have national experience, some did, but not most.</p>

<p>Nothing in this business is an exact science, that’s why the current rising Sophomore class (MomCares daughter’s class) is at 125 as opposed to the 100 they prefer. Of course a few will switch majors which will lower the number a bit by the time they are Juniors but still…</p>

<p>BTW, my daughter (a soon to be NU M/T Senior!), was admitted to Yale but waitlisted at NU and she had professional film and television experience on her resume. No way to know the reasons for anything.</p>

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<p>It is certainly true that my impressions of NU are based on our D’s very positive experience, which is for most of us the only real lense we parents have into our kids’ schools (unless we’re more helicopterish than I and seek direct contact with administration). :smiley: </p>

<p>Among the kids in D’s MT cohort of 15 freshman, it is my understanding that virtually all have national-level achievements, including full scholarship kids who had leads at Interlochen. I know MPulse also offers scholarships, and YoungArts is $35, so I honestly don’t think cost is a significant barrier. Also remember that many NU theatre kids are not performers (eg D’s roomate is a stage manager and another friend a writer) and those kids have different types of recognizable accomplishments.</p>

<p>The reasons I’ve posted about NU this past year have been first, that so many people at CC provided valuable information to us during D’s search and second, that we came dangerously close to overlooking the perfect school for our D and I hope to have prevented some folks from doing the same.</p>

<p>I think I’ve probably added about all the value I can at CC and wish you all the VERY best of luck both in and beyond college!!</p>

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<p>My son is one of your D’s freshmen MT cohorts and he has no national level achievements (does state level count? ha). Doesn’t seem that it figures into that decision at all. Just our experience.</p>

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<p>My son is a rising junior at NU. He did not have any “national” recognition, but he did attend the summer theatre “Cherubs” program held on NU’s campus following his junior year in high school. He did a lot of theatre in high school and was fortunate to be in a high school with an outstanding theatre program. He did a bit of summer Shakespeare with a community theatre group. He added a third letter of recommendation to his application from the head of the theatre department at his high school. I’m sure it was an outstanding recommendation charting his growth as an actor. He is very serious about his craft as a straight, non-MT, actor and I think it probably shone through in his application. Again, he had no “national” achievement so that should not deter anyone from applying.</p>

<p>I do agree that the talent level is outstanding. We have attended a number of shows on campus and some of them have been stunningly good. It started with the freshman Cabaret presentation held during Parents’ Weekend. My son played the piano, accompanying an outstanding singer. My husband and I also heard a vocal performance major, who is now in MT, perform at that cabaret and agreed that we would pay to hear her perform.</p>

<p>In short, NU is a really interesting place with an outstanding theatre arts program, coupled with Division I athletics and terrific academics. My son, the theatre major, is generally in the front row at the football games, oftentimes with his face/body painted in school colors. :)</p>

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<p>My D is excited to be going to NU this fall, as it seems to encapsulate everything she wants in a rigorous theatre program. Her goal is to be a working professional actor (straight). </p>

<p>In applying to NU, she did have two pretty amazing letters of recommendation from her theatre mentors; my D did not have a strong drama program at her high school but was fortunate to land a lead role in a semi professional production when she was 18. And we are also fortunate to live close to a theatre-rich city and my D took many classes at professional theatres - voice, movement, text, etc; one of her letters was from this theatre.</p>

<p>She also posted her auditions online on YouTube and provided the link to NU.I have no idea if they viewed the You Tube videos, but these operated exactly like a recorded audition for a BFA program.</p>

<p>I believe that NU knows exactly what it’s doing. They got a strong academic student in my D, sure. But they also got someone who is dedicated and passionate about the craft of acting. :-)</p>

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<p>PS For what it’s worth, we couldn’t afford any ‘national’ programs or pre college programs. We don’t have much money. It’s true some pre college programs have scholarships, but it’s very rare to get the level of scholarship we’d need (about 85% at least). So my D stuck to the theatre offerings in our city and it’s fortunate we could. The only national recognition my D got was as a National Merit Scholar, which is great, but not directly applicable to theatre. What I’m trying to say is if your son/daughter doesn’t have national recognition or even state recognition, don’t let that impact your decision whether to apply to NU. I personally believe NU is looking for a dynamic, balanced class with kids of various backgrounds with various experiences. Academics do need to be strong, but that’s a given. And they did give us a generous scholarship :-)</p>

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<p>One more thing–I don’t want my comment to sound like I was saying that NU ‘knows what it’s doing’ when it rejects a student! Obviously, in our hyper competitive admissions process, rejections often mean nothing at all, just as halflokum says (I read her comment fully only after I commented!). Only that if you are interested in NU, by all means don’t be afraid to apply if you don’t have national recognition.</p>

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<p>This thread is definitely highly skewed in favor of NU’s Theatre Department. As a rising sophomore theatre major, I can tell you that the department isn’t all perfect. One point that has been mentioned is that they try to aim to have 100 theatre majors in each grade. Of course, because it isn’t a BFA, the students are allowed to find their passion within the realm of theatre. Most end up choosing to act. There are some wonderful actors. The fact is, most of them are not. I have talked to a faculty member and she stated outright that Northwestern’s talent pool comes nowhere near the top conservatories like CCM, CMU, NCSA, etc. That isn’t to say that there are a handful of performance-oriented theatre majors who are absolutely talented and will end up on Broadway some day. But they aren’t the norm. (When you have 100 theatre majors, there are bound to be a few brilliant ones amongst mediocre ones, just like the situation at NYU.) There are others who should switch their major to something else. While I’m not an expert in design/direction, I can tell you that most of the student designers/directors aren’t great at it. It is expected, however, since the school, at most, offers two classes in each of the design fields (when there is an entire major for a specific design field at conservatories), and directing/playwriting is an entirely different beast that takes extraordinary talent and skill with the ability to truly understands everything about the theatre. Most student shows are quite atrocious. There are a few good ones, I’m sure, but in the past year, I didn’t see any that warranted charging an admission. Yes, there are students who win national theater awards for playwriting and such, but so do other schools. NU isn’t close to dominating. There just happen to be one or two really talented writers every once in a while. </p>

<p>That being said, from what I have discussed with other friends that go to other BA programs, it really is what you make of it. While it isn’t the school with the most talented students that some people try to make it sound to be, it definitely is a great place to experiment. My only concern is that students don’t experiment. Most of them are focused on acting, because it essentially is an acting-based program. (Most students who design shows aren’t even theatre majors, FYI.)</p>

<p>And there have been rumors that one awfully untalented MT in the program passed the MT audition based on her parents’ donation to the program. While it is an unsubstantiated rumor, it does speak about the political awareness of the department amongst the students. Additionally, there’s no way that “many” of the students have been on Broadway already. That is an inane statement. And continuing the discussion of admissions, you really don’t need to have any national recognition in anything, although it definitely helps. It is true that Theatre majors have, on the aggregated average, a little bit lower GPA/test scores than WCAS and McCormick (Engineering) students. But they make up for it, I’m assuming, by theater/extra curricular involvements. And based on the large actor population at the school, I definitely wouldn’t call the program among the top 5-10 program in the nation. I can probably name 15 other schools that appear more often on Playbill bios, anywhere from Michigan, Penn State, Elon, Miami, etc. And most of those schools have much smaller student population. Another faculty told me that the senior showcases aren’t exactly well attended. One or two students get a good/great offer by talent agencies, but most of them don’t. </p>

<p>I just think that some of the posts overglorified NU’s Theatre/MT program and I wanted to place that into a better perspective. Don’t get me wrong, I love Northwestern’s Theatre department. I have had a great freshman year. However, it isn’t the holy grail of a college theater department.</p>

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<p>actor193, thanks for your honest post. Hopefully, you’ll be able to extract your own positive experiences from the program–that’s really all you can do. My own D is very focused on her straight acting & has specific goals in mind (not B’way, at least not immediately!); she does feel Northwestern is the best for her given her own goals. We’ll have to see! :slight_smile: But I can tell you in the professional theatre community, Northwestern has an excellent reputation, higher than many BFA programs. Plus it has good connections. So hopefully you’ll be able to use these to help your own career. It can be depressing to see non-talented people in a top program or people who you feel got there because of money, but sadly that doesn’t stop in the ‘real’ world. So you really have to focus on yourself and how you can position yourself to achieve your own goals. Best of luck next year, and thanks again for sharing your experiences.</p>

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<p>Excellent answer connections!</p>

<p>Oh, and Actor193 perhaps you should wait until you’ve completed your Junior year to evaluate a program that doesn’t really start until Sophomore year and not listen to rumors.</p>

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<p>Sure, one part of my post mentioned the rumors; however, your response is quite dismissive and diverts from the point I was trying to make! Some posters, such as Momcares made a claim that many people have incredible resumes with Broadway credits when that simply isn’t the case at all! Additionally, I have witnessed several acting classes. Talent/skill is an outcome of the classes. The teachers are wonderful, no doubt. However, the quite a lot of students in acting classes were simply mediocre (Just to clarify, I’m not saying that I can do better.). </p>

<p>And when people say “professional theatre community,” what are they referring to? This will be my second year interning in NYC. I think I’m decently aware of the theatre scene. Yes, Northwestern generally has a good reputation. Maybe in the relatively small (but great) Chicago theater scene, due to its proximity. However, frankly, in the acting world, your alma mater does not matter. And again, there are indeed brilliantly talented performers, but those aren’t the norm at NU, at least in my eyes. Most of them are passable college actors. And what exactly does “good connections” even mean? The Goodman surely won’t hire a Northwestern alum simply for the training. Nor will any casting directors in NYC. Perhaps if you know of a classmate that is producing a show aimed for the New York Fringe, you might be cast! But if you are looking to break into the commercial/LORT A+/A/B-level theatres, then I’m not sure if school connections matter too much!</p>

<p>If you wanted another raving first-hand review of the NU Theatre experience, then I’m sorry to have disappointed you! I hope you do see some of my points, however; and not pass them off as a depressed person’s vent outlet.</p>

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<p>Northwestern was starting to sound too good to be true. I appreciate the reality check.</p>

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<p>I don’t have a horse in this race (I have no child at Northwestern, I didn’t go there, and my D is not even applying there), but I may have some insight. First, one of the things I appreciate about the MT threads on CC is the generous sharing of information, and the commiseration. It has been really helpful to me over the past few years, and especially now, as my D is poised to apply to MT programs. And I appreciate everyone’s point of view. We all know that choosing a school is a very personal decision. You have to find that good fit between the student and the program. Obviously, MomCares’ D found her fit. She has been very generous with her information, and her D has found her perfect place. It has also been helpful for me to read posts from people like actor193. Everyone is going to have a different take and a different experience with a particular program, and no one should rely on any one person’s experience as gospel. To me, all the information, both good and bad, is helpful.</p>

<p>With regards to NW’s program, it is very different than most other programs. My D is not applying there for 2 reasons: 1) she wants a BFA program, not a BA program; and 2) she does not like the idea of staying at a college for a year before having to audition for the MT program. I totally get that, and I support her in that decision. I think that set up is going to make NW fall off many people’s lists. Now that doesn’t mean that NW is a bad program…obviously, it turns out some very talented kids. People question how the talent can be comparable to audition BFA programs…and that’s where I may have some insight, in the form of an analogy. Bear with me…</p>

<p>My D has been going to Stagedoor for 6 summers. Critics of Stagedoor say the program cannot be as good as, say, Interlochen, b/c it is non-audition. Campers come to Stagedoor on a first come, first serve basis. They audition once they are there. There are some incredibly talented kids, Broadway kids, movie stars, Disney stars, recording artists, sons and daughters of famous people, etc. And then there are plenty of our everyday kids who are simply passionate about theater. How can the shows be good, people ask, if Stagedoor takes ANYONE? Well, the shows are good. Most are phenomenal. I have seen shows there that are as good as any professional show…and these are thrown together in 2.5 weeks by kids. What happens at Stagedoor is this: kids audition. The best and most talented kids get the leads. The kids who aren’t as good get ensemble. And they learn. If the kids cannot deal with ensemble, or they don’t get better, they either stay in ensemble year after year, or they don’t come back. More often than not, they leave. It is pretty self selecting. </p>

<p>I imagine that’s what happens at NW. The school takes a bunch of kids freshman year. Some are very talented, drawn to NW by their reputation and academics. Others aren’t so talented. After freshman year, they audition. The top 25 make it into the MT certificate program. Those 25 kids are probably pretty darn good. Just like the top 25 kids at Stagedoor. </p>

<p>Are there talented MT kids who don’t make it into NW’s certificate program? Absolutely (in fact, we know of one who is extremely talented, and did not make the cut after her freshman year). Does NW make some mistakes? I’m sure they do…just like Stagedoor miscasts every once in awhile, or any other BFA program may end up with someone who is not quite as good as they had hoped. It’s the nature of the business. But the bottom line is that it is not at all surprising to me that NW ends up with a (mostly) extremely talented class of MT kids in their certificate program. It’s the same reason Stagedoor ends up with extremely talented kids at their camp. Not everyone, but a lot of them.</p>

<p>So, NW is right for some and not for others. It’s a good program, and I wish everyone there the best of luck.</p>

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<p>actor193 - I am not disagreeing with you at all, as a matter of fact I said similar things in my post both in regards to NU and MomCares view. Actually I believe everyone on this post except MomCares agreed with much of what you said, I just don’t think you’ve given NU enough time for some of your comments. </p>

<p>I’m guessing that your observations of acting classes came from NUs process of choosing an acting teacher, do you know what the teacher was trying to get from the students during your observation period? Were they trying something new or particularly difficult? I don’t need an answer to these questions, just suggesting possibilities as to your disappointment, but I do agree that not everyone is at the top of the pecking order when you’ve got 100 kids (or 125 in your class).</p>

<p>BTW, you’ve got a great choice of acting teachers for your class. One was written up in Backstage a few months ago (May maybe?). </p>

<p>In terms of connections, again, it will take you until the end of Junior or into Senior year and then post-graduation to see where they bring you. Certainly connections will generally not help someone untalented given the cost of producing a show (any show/any medium) but do not underestimate connections, it is naive to think they carry no weight.</p>