<p>Thank you so very much for sharing this story of your daughter's experience at Colgate and her reasons for seeking a transfer. I know that for me, this story brings so much comfort because it is so difficult to NOT think of a college decision as "permanent" and "irrevocable". In fact, a student CAN transfer if for any reason s/he feels like the fit is not good.</p>
<p>I am soooooooooooo thrilled to hear of your daughter's acceptances to WashU and Tufts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is so completely exciting! I wish her all the best for a smooth and easy transition to her new school and for many happy times in the remainder of her college career!</p>
<p>wjb: you could have been writing that exact same thing about my daughter, including the college selection process. She applied to 10 schools - not one of which ever leapt out as "the one." She wound up picking the one that seemed to want her most and it has not wound up to be a great fit from the social culture point of view. It has from an intellectual/academic culture standpoint but for teenagers, that social piece is pretty dominating! And if it's missing, it can be daunting to overcome.</p>
<p>She is in the process now of deciding whether to transfer or not (from a small LAC to a big state U) and she still can't make up her mind. As you mentioned, she doesn't want transferring to be running away. So, right now her thinking is to stay where she is and try and work around the fact that she doesn't fit into the mainstream of the social culture. But it wouldn't surprise me if she doesn't turn around and transfer - the pull of the friends she has at the state u. are very, very strong and it's a case of, once again, someone really wanting her.</p>
<p>I also have never thought of this as a bad thing, in spite of some of the tough times she's experienced this year. In a lot of ways, she's needed this to help her grow and mature, as painful as some of it has been. But I don't see this as some failure to find the dream school; I see this as a natural process of learning about yourself and what makes you happy and what you have to do to achieve that goal.</p>
<p>I am very glad that your daughter has come through this process. Coming to the decision on her own and doing the research and work necessary to achieve her goal of being happy will make her such a stronger person. Congrats to her - and to you for being a willing and helpful and supportive advocate. You'll have to keep us updated on where she ultimately decides to go and then next year keep coming back to let us know how she's doing. Thanks for sharing - it helps someone like me who's going through the exact same thing.</p>
<p>Wow. I SO much appreciate all your positive comments about my daughter's story. What a kind and supportive bunch of parents you are. Thanks also for the observations about schools.</p>
<p>I have a bunch of PMs to respond to, and I'll definitely get to all of them, but it will take me a while.</p>
<p>KJOFKW: You raise a good point about the availability of financial/merit aid for transfer students. My daughter is extremely fortunate, as we do not need to rely on financial aid. It is not lost on her that she is lucky to be able to make her decision based exclusively on what is best for her. But from what little I know, I think that while transfer admissions purport to be need-blind, there is little or no financial aid available for transfers. Obviously, for so many families that adds a layer of complication to an already thorny problem. Maybe some other posters will know more.</p>
<p>Alwaysamom: So good to hear another transfer story with a good ending. I'm very happy everything worked out for your niece.</p>
<p>Fredo: I have followed your daughter's story with interest and empathy. I think you have great perspective on the whole matter, and I especially agree with your statement that facing the prospect of transfer is part of "a natural process of learning about yourself." While we'd prefer not to be doing this, it is definitely NOT all bad. </p>
<p>Please keep us posted on your daughter's decision.</p>
<p>Just wanted to add a word about financial aid for transfers: it varies from school to school. Some do have ample money available for transfers, including in some cases merit scholarships, but some don't. So, yes money may limit your choices if you're tranferring but it shouldn't rule out the possibility of doing so.</p>
<p>wcb and fredo -- Thanks for sharing Ds' stories re: transferring. S3 is rising hs senior, a top student, great ECs, but seems apathetic towards looking at possible colleges, etc. S1 had favorite and was accepted EA and it has worked out fanstastically. S2 had a passion and his ED choice was tops in the field; he had done summer program there and loved it -- but the kids were all East coast kids, most of whom did not apply there. S2 -- now a junior -- discovered his school was not perfect. Whenever he complained, I mentionned the "T"word.
However, he has finally found his group of friends and ECs and is happy there. But I worry the most about S3 -- about what type of academics and social life will be best for him. I feel that you don't always know a school is right for you until you actually are there as a freshman, living in the dorms, going to classes, etc. I have told all three of my Ss that the college decision is not always set in concrete and that transferring is an option. I think it takes a more mature kid to come to this realization and to act on it.</p>
<p>wjb -- What thoughtful and articulate posts. I'm impressed by your daughter's maturity and, also, by her ability to avoid both the trap of blaming the school and the trap of blaming herself.</p>
<p>Now that she has such exciting new choices, has she talked to any transfer students at each college, to see what the experience has been like? I'd guess that some places are more welcoming than others, and that some make it easier institutionally than others.</p>
<p>I do shudder at the dream school descriptions, and if any of my posts on other threads about my own son's good first year have contributed to that, I deeply appologize. He never had a first choice through the process, and recognizes he could have had an equally good year at just about all the schools on his list. None were LACs. His experience at a small high school taught him the lesson you describe so well here: that there is a dominant culture at smaller schools. And, because he did not believe he could gather enough information to gauge that dominant culture at each LAC -- or perhaps because he did not believe he knew himself well enoughto figure out which fit -- he only wanted to apply to larger colleges.</p>
<p>The right place for any kid is the place where they can grow and change, even if that means growing right out of the college they chose at 17. I transferred after my own first year and had no regrets. I wish your daughter the best of luck!</p>
<p>I am a transfer student and this is what I have to say about transfer financial aid: Last year (senior year) I got into a few schools and got decent financial aid, but it was not awesome, so I went to a community college instead. This year, I was admitted to several schools and got financial aid comparable to what I got last year. There was no clear disadvantage for me in the financial aid process this time around, but I did save myself and my family $60,000 by going to community college.</p>
<p>Sac:
While my daughter has managed to avoid the blame trap, I havent been quite as mature. More than a few times over the last months I have beaten myself up a little for failing to do a more effective job of guiding her through the college selection process. Im over it now. ;)</p>
<p>Talking to transfer students will be on her plate next week, once she finishes finals. A current Wash U senior who transferred there as a sophomore has already e-mailed her and offered to answer questions. We found that very LAC-esque! You gotta admire Wash Us administration so well-organized. </p>
<p>How interesting that your son learned the lesson about small school cultures during high school. And how insightful of him to understand that he might not be able to accurately judge the dominant culture at any given LAC or whether that culture would fit him. That is an unusual and incredibly sensible rationale for choosing a mid-size or larger school.</p>
<p>I think it was more likely insecurity -- but nice of you to put it down to being sensible :) </p>
<p>I'm glad you're over feeling guilt. Even though my son's had a good first year, I still find myself going over the "what ifs" thinking about some of the places he turned down. That's when you know that your kids are growing up -- when they show they're more mature than you are.</p>
<p>I hesitate to post this on the Parents Forum because I think this is something your kids should do, but I cant emphasize the value of Live Journal snooping enough in gauging whether a college might be a good fit or not - ESPECIALLY at small LACs with their unique campus cultures. Its very easy if youre willing to spend a little time on it. Just search out the LJ communities for the colleges on your list and either read the Friends sections or pick through the Members lists until you find some kids in your intended major. Usually, they will have several other people from their major on their own Friends lists. Pick a few and go to their archives and read from the time they arrived on campus to the present. Some might think it's a bit creepy, but you can find out a lot about the schools' cultures doing this and it's much better to be creepy and safe than uninformed and sorry. I know that the rank order of my own list changed considerably because of it. There were two schools that I had been fairly high on from the prestige standpoint that slid way down my list after seeing certain recurring themes that I found unacceptable. Fortunately (knocking on my wooden desk), I got accepted at the one that ended up on top. </p>
<p>WJB is exactly right about the careful choreographing of the open house weekends, too. Even at the one Ill attend next fall, I kept wondering to myself when they were going to bring out the performing monkeys! Fortunately, I got placed in the dorms with some students who were willing to give me the real lowdown on the place which conformed very well to what Id already seen different kids write in their LJs. Hopefully, there'll be no transfer in my future. :)</p>
<p>The problem with LiveJournal is that the writers are self-selected - and are the type of people who like to share publicly their hopes and joys and... binge drinking fits, break-ups, etc. So they are not a representative sample of who is on campus, or what goes on on campus. They are often the drama kings or queens, the binge drinkers, the party-heartiers, the "squeaky wheels".</p>
<p>wjb-Thank you for sharing your daughters story. I never really realized that my daughter was not excited about her college choice. She wanted to be but it just didn't happen. Last August we moved her in to her dorm at UCBerkekly. Over the next few weeks through conversations and email I got the impression she wasn't really happy with the school but she had made some great friends and I thought she was adjusting. In October she mentioned the thought of withdrawing and not even finishing the semester. I never thought she would "give up" When she called to inform us that she had in fact withdrawn I must admit I was speechless. The following Saturday as I drove the 5 hours to pick her up I admit I cried. I wondered what I could have done to prevent this. I now know how much courage it took my daughter to do this. She came home and rethought the whole college process. She always wanted to go back east and now she has. In January she started at UMD College Park. From the beginning I could tell that she was finally happy with what she was doing and where she was. She will be home on the 20th but is already talking with excitement about returning for the fall semester.</p>
<p>Actually, my daughter and I have also found livejournal extremely useful. We don't read the individual journals of students but we do read the overall community live journal. Yes, there is certain element of self-selection, but we have found that reading a few months of the college livejournal, especially when it is a fairly large group of regular posters participating, gives a remarkably accurate picture of what we find the students to be like when we visit. It is a good way of getting a feel for the campus culture, the issues that students on a particular campus are discussing, what they're complaining about, etc.
There are noticeable differences between the college livejournal communities as well. Combined with reading the archives of the student newspaper, it is possible to piece together a very clear picture of what life is like on a particular campus.</p>
<p>MomZ, oh, your post made my eyes tear up. I am glad that things have worked out for your daughter, but I can feel how hard it must have been on you both. Luckily, you have a daughter brave enough and self-confident enough to take steps to change her unhappy situation to a happier one. I wonder how many kids do not manage to find the courage to do so and suffer through four years unhappy?</p>
<p>LiveJournal??? Where do I find this? Can some one post a link or explain how i find this resource I have missed despite years of college obsessing? How could I have overlooked this ;) I have seen student review :)</p>
<p>Wjb, What a surprise it was to read this thread! Im delighted to hear that all is in the process of working its way toward a happy conclusion. Ill be looking forward to hearing about your daughters impressions of the art history department wherever she ends up. So far, two great choices! </p>
<p>
[quote]
Every LAC (and probably every small university, too) has a dominant social culture, a dominant intellectual culture, and a dominant academic culture, and there is significant overlap among the three.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>These are very wise words, but the problem is that dominant and stereotypical or commonly believed can often be different, so to ferret out the REAL culture especially as it relates to the individual is difficult. In my sons case I think there was a strong element of luck involved. One thing I can say for sure is that if you want to study art it sure helps to have the real thing on hand.</p>
<p>This was an amazing post. As a student unhappy at my current school (I guess you could glean it from my username) I have been pondering whether or not I should leave for months. I am steadily progressing into my major and EC's but I'm realizing this school lacks the social/intellectual atmosphere I so dearly need. Thank you, OP, for pointing out that it is not giving up if I transfer elsewhere, but rather an act of maturity. I think I needed to hear that.</p>
<p>My only wonder now is, do I abandon the whole LAC thing (I'm considering Oberlin or Kenyon) in case the social atmosphere fails to work out again, or do I just go for the large school (Umich)? </p>
<p>This whole process is so exhausting... and here I thought I was done.</p>
<p>There is an important moral here for future applicants. I too believe there ARE dominant cultures at many LACs. This can be a benefit, because an informed applicant can more "custom -shape" their environment to include mostly students with whom they will have at least certain values in common. However it can be a real mine-field if someone doesn't come across this personality aspect in their search.</p>
<p>It's a bit tough I guess, since this data does not appear in "ranking charts" and the like. Sometimes one has to read the guide books carefully with this in mind. And/or use a resource like CC.</p>
<p>I see posts on CC where the applicants are applying to some schools that are about as different in personality as one can get, and I wonder sometimes if they've looked carefully at this aspect.</p>
<p>MomZ: I can only imagine the thought that must have gone into your Ds difficult -- and obviously correct -- decision to withdraw from her first school. And I cant fathom the pain of hearing that kind of news from a child. You and your daughter are both brave. I am so glad to hear that she is flourishing at UMD. </p>
<p>Albionguy: Think how much more you know about yourself and what you want from your college experience than you did when you chose your current school. If you still want to be at an LAC, you have the tools to make the right choice this time. Go for it! Oberlin and Kenyon are quite different, in my opinion. If you can, try to arrange an overnight stay at each school in the fall. I think thats the best way to discover the culture and whether it fits you. And although it stings to discover youre not done with a process you thought was behind you, Ill reiterate that the transfer process is in some respects much less onerous than the original application process. Youll probably apply to fewer schools, and your essays will be carefully tailored to answer one key question: why you want to transfer to each school. Please keep us posted! </p>
<p>Momrath: I don't know how to do the little quote boxes, so you'll have to pretend this is in one: These are very wise words, but the problem is that dominant and stereotypical or commonly believed can often be different, so to ferret out the REAL culture especially as it relates to the individual is difficult. I completely agree with you. Although I believe each college has a dominant culture, colleges are complex places, not caricatures, and I think its important to resist putting them in pigeonholes.</p>