<p>For all of us, the hardest part of this process is to sort out exactly WHAT the different cultures are for each of the schools...especially those which my D can't spend a lot of time at. For all of you who have been through this, how did your child get it right the first time or second? How did they determine these cultures? Viewbooks don't work and websites have been surprisingly difficulty to navigate and to extract information from. The Princeton, Fiske, and other guides really have not been too helpful. My D's been looking at some of the student-authored and researched series of guides, but it appears that at least some of these are quite old. Where else does a student (and parent) get this information? What specific questions have your children asked?</p>
<p>echosensei-This year our 2nd D is a HS senior. Last year her sister was. We know that you can't make yourself like a school or place. If you can, visit the school you think you want to attend when it is not "official" visits or tours. Can you stay overnight in the dorms? D 2 was convinced she would go to UCLA. Got accepted and decided to go visit. (She had done a casual visit last year). She knows several freshman there and has friends planning to attend next year. Visit went well then she visited Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. It was a chance to see a friend and check that campus out too. Well when she came home she was not so sure of LA. She had to really think about what she enjoys besides academics. She is an outdoor person hiking, biking etc. She realized Cal Poly was a great place for those things. She never looked beyond academics before. Well to make a long story short she has choses Cal Poly and knows it is the right place for her. Best of luck of what ever decisions you make. :)</p>
<p>wjb, What a wonderful post! I admire your Ds introspection and fortitude you have raised her well.</p>
<p>Your advice in having your child take a more active role in the WHOLE process is one I needed to hear. Thank you.</p>
<p>Somemom: <a href="http://www.livejournal.com%5B/url%5D">www.livejournal.com</a> Do an "interest" search for the name of the college. Not all schools have an active community but when they do, it can often provide useful insight.</p>
<p>Thanks, Tutu. One thing I need to add is that I believe it's easier for college kids to do the administrative stuff (here, I'm thinking in particular about making the million phone calls to admissions offices) than it is for high school kids. Unlike high school kids, college kids have large chunks of time during the business day when they're not in class. I have a younger one, and I'm still planning to serve as his chief administrative assistant when it comes time for him to apply to colleges. But as I told my daughter when she decided to try to transfer, that job just doesn't pay all that well, so "One to a customer!" ;)</p>
<p>I've been reading these and debating whether or not to add S1's experience on transferring to this. I think I will because he was not dealing with LAC's or even "prestige" name schools, and still it was the culture of the place, and maturing on his that made the difference. S1 will admit, looking back, that he didn't put a lot of thought into the whole process. He knew he wanted computer science, and a good program, he knew his grades weren't that great (ave SATs), he knew he wanted to get far away from parents, and he knew we were alumni of Purdue, so without questioning any further, he applied at Labor Day, got accepted on 9/11 (yes, that one) and never looked back for a year. He hated it. He never thought seriously of the difference in culture of east coast suburban kid vs predominantly midwest student. He also never realized until out there that friends and family were important to him, as a support. He also hadn't bothered to realize that there are many aspects to computer science, and discovered that he didn't want research/writing code 8/hr a day for a living, but wanted the technology end of computers, more like the network design and administration courses he had in a high school program. In other words, he did a LOT of growing up/maturing after he got out there, on his own. He also discovered that if he didn't keep himself busy (this is an ADHD kid here) that he got himself into mischief (read, learned all about drinking as a freshman), and he also learned what too much mischief can cause, not personally, but watching his roommate get kicked out for theft (related to his drinking). He also learned that the program that he really wanted was in his own backyard back home. He did all the work involved in transferring and was able to even get into summer school the next year. To make this long story short, he transferred to another large university, not as "ranked" as Purdue, but good for his interest in information technology, plus being near home, he had the connection from his high school technology program to land himself a 20 hr/week internship in IT. In fact, thanks to summer school, transfer credits, and hard work (while still working 20 hr/wk) he's graduating in a couple of weeks, a full year early, and is starting an IT job locally at a salary that took me half my life in public education to come near. His transfer was hard to us, as parents, to accept at first, but that's because our own emotions were getting in the way. The typical "let's enjoy four years of college" wasn't his way, but he figured it out while maturing into a nice young adult at the same time. Even though he hated where he was the first year, it was still good, as it also helped him to mature, to look at himself as he hadn't before and to make those choices for himself, on his own. So, transfers do happen, at all places. It sometimes just takes the students longer to figure out what works best for them.</p>
<p>Wow. I am so glad I found this thread. Finally, I get to read something not so great about the LACs, because in most of the threads they are being depicted as nearly perfect institutions.
First, I would like to thank wjb for sharing her priceless experience with us. Thank you!
Second, I would like to thank the rest of you who have also shared your stories and thus have contributed to the formation of this very useful thread.
Third, I would like to ask you for help.
I am an international who has just enrolled at Mount Holyoke College. I have to admit that my college selection was based mainly on the academic level, not on the college atmosphere or on the college location, or etc. To be honest, I thought that students go to college to educate themselves and that great education should be the single most important factor (unfortunately, after the MONEY factor).That is why I took the risk to enroll at a women's college. But I am really scared. My friends (among them there are three mhc graduates) try to reassure me that it's not that scary. They point out the proximity of umass and amherst and so on, but I don't know... Therefore, it is from now that I have started thinking about transferring. Actually the one college I really fell in love with was Colgate.:) I got rejected there, but the letter said that if my interest in Colgate continued, I was welcome to apply as a transfer student. So, wjb, I would really appreciate it if you could differentiate what it was in Colgate's atmosphere that your daughter did not like? What is the "mainstream" there?
Also, is there anyone who can tell me about the idiosyncrasies of a women's college experience?
Thank you in advance.
I wish both you and your children all the best!</p>
<p>As a transfer student, I echo the sentiment that campus culture is crucial. Last year as a senior I was Ivy or bust in my college search, and wanting to play the numbers game, I applied to Penn ED. I was thrilled with my acceptance, and having read all the college guides religiously since sophomore year, I was pretty confident I'd love Penn. However, by the end of the week-long orientation, I was having doubts, and 6 weeks into the semester, I honestly thought I wouldn't make it to finals. I ended up making it through the whole year, but it was definately not the year I had expected as an eager senior. Penn is a great school, my classes were fantastic, and I made friends. but despite all my research, I came to school ignorant of the prevalent culture, and what big city life really was like. I think I had a misplaced confidence that a big school has plenty of room for everyone to find their niche. No doubt this is true, but sometimes it takes getting to college to realize if you're really a niche person. I found I would be much more comfortable in the mainstream of a student body. I'm transfering to my state school, UNC-Ch, and while many would consider it trading down, I know it is the right decision for me. My advice to students and parents: 1)throw away U.S. News Rankings. The school stops being a number very quickly, and rank doesn't equal happiness. 2) don't stop at the campus tour. as many others have said, overnights are extremely important-- i made the mistake of not talking to any other students besides those working in the admissions office. also, don't take people who know people who are very happy at the school to be your source. talk to the people they know, what makes them happy could be the very thing that makes you miserable 3) question what buzzwords to describe the school REALLY mean. for instance, Penn being the "social ivy" really means the average penn student consumes 4 drinks a night on weekends, not that the student body isn't less cliquish, intense, or class-conscious than the other ivies. 4) don't apply ED unless you can describe the student experience as well as an actual student, and can name at least 3 students who could verify that account. knowing numbers or admissions-speak is insufficient. and lastly, 5) READ THE CAMPUS NEWSPAPER-- many campus papers are online. after reading the DP faithfully this year, I saw it reflected campus culture very well, and had i been reading it last year, I would have known Penn wasn't the school for me.</p>
<p>Wjb, if you don't mind sharing (perhaps in a PM) what your daughter's name is? I'm also transferring (or attempting to) from Colgate because I couldn't cope with the mainstream culture. I'm jw, because I might know her.</p>
<p>great post southerndixie.</p>
<p>Southerndixie, I am really glad that you knew a good alternative for you. Many kids are unhappy, but can't pinpoint the reason and can't figure out where to go. And sometimes all of the preparation and readings just don't make a bit of difference. Friends of ours had a son at Bucknell a few years ago, and I know they did everything to ensure that the match was good as they did have a number of choices. Well, he hated it there so much, he did not even stay the year. Went home and did the second term at Pitt commuting. He had good grades and was able to transfer to another good school but it did cost them a very nice financial aid package as they are not ususally so generous at many schools to transfers. I don't know what more the kid or family could have done to ensure a match as they did far more than most kids do. It was just one of those things.</p>
<p>Southerndixie: Your post is valuable on multiple levels. I think it should be required reading for every college applicant. I especially like the ideas of making meaningful contacts with current students and reading the campus newspaper. These are ways to figure out a campus culture without spending a cent. I am confident that you will do well at UNC-Charlotte. Best of luck.</p>
<p>As the mom of a hs senior, I've had memories of my college experience around me all year. I only looked at 2 LAC and before my college career was over I'd attended both, graduating from the one closer to home and with the less prestigous reputation, although still solid in my area of study.</p>
<p>What struck me about WJB's first entry was her comment about how, as parents, she and her husband knew that their D wasn't truly happy. That is exactly what happened to me. I went 500 miles away and spent two years at a great LAC. Sophomore summer, when I came to the tearful realization that I wasn't really happy at my first school (after a long talk with my best friend on my front porch!) I ran in to talk to my parents. They were SO UNsurprised. I was floored. Although I was thriving at this school, academically, and growing as a total musician (I was a Music Ed major), they could tell that I wasn't happy...too much teacher intervention in my life (not just academic life) was driving me crazy...also, I had chosen the wrong instrument as my major and wasn't thrilled to spend the practicing hours needed to succeed.Also, I hadn't investigated the course requirements like I should have and taking a language wasn't even an option at my first school...no time in the curriculum...I really wanted to take German since my hs didn't offer it and I never even considered that I wouldn't be able to take it at the first school.</p>
<p>Long story made short - I didn't go back my Junior year...stayed out a semester...got a job as a teacher's aid at my mom's school...took lessons at home and at the college I would ultimately attend (1 hour away)...spent some quality time with my parents as an adult...earned some money and reapplied to the 2nd school. It was odd, at first, being a transfer student, but it never really bothered me. I made plenty of friends in my department, in my dorm and throughout the campus, I had fabulous teachers (for the most part), I REALLY concentrated on my major (changing instruments), and THE MOST IMPORTANT THING - I was a much better student, taking advantage of what each professor had to offer. I wouldn't trade my student teaching experience for anything...I probably had the best teacher in the state to work with. </p>
<p>There are many times I regret leaving my first school when I think about some of the good opportunities I walked away from. But, I made good opportunities happen once I left and was the better student and more mature person for it.</p>
<p>I've had to do a lot of the planning this past year for my D as she as applied for BFA Musical Theatre programs. She has been very successful. I was so involved because of the planning around the audition process (flights, rental cars, hotels, crazy scheduling for the whole family) and because I didn't want her to make the mistake I did, which was not look at enough schools. I am disappointed that she did not take as much initiative in the process as others do....I did a lot of the research...but I also realize that some High School Seniors are extremely hesitant to begin the process and to be pushy about finding out information. I was, and I saw that in my D this year. My D is one of the youngest in her class ( a July birthday) and although she if very mature in many ways, thinking through and planning the college process are not some of them! </p>
<p>If my D finds out she is not happy at her chosen LAC, I will be very supportive, but she's going to have to initiate the process of transferring, etc. Transferring was the right thing for me, although it never even entered my mind until the end of my sophomore year. </p>
<p>I know this is an experience that is 25 years old, but it is an experience that changed the rest of my life and I'm glad my parents supported me. I thought they would be devastated that I wouldn't finish what I started (although I did, in a different place!), that they would be embarrassed and would think I was fickle. Their reaction was the total opposite.
Taking charge of your decisions and being honest with yourself and others are very important steps to becoming a responsible adult. Those who change direction (and colleges) aren't failures.</p>
<p>da<em>cute</em>wabbit, do I understand your situation correctly - that you have been accepted at MHC and plan to start there in the fall? Or are you already there?</p>
<p>Assuming you aren't yet there and your worries are <em>apprehensions</em> about what you'll find:</p>
<p>I went to a women's college (Wellesley), and if what you are worried about is lack of social opportunities/ways to meet men, I don't think that you need to worry. MHC, like Wellesley, has many other schools around and there are amply opportunities to meet males socially. Back in my day, we didn't begin cross-registration (with MIT) until my jr. year. Now these cross-reg and consortium arrangements are well established, so you have the opportunity to be in co-ed classes.</p>
<p>When I was in college, we worried about the "unreality" of classes without the male perspective. I'm not sure how much of a worry that is in many classes (the male "perspective" on chemistry, french, econ...?) It is certainly true in some discussions. This potential disadvantage is offset, in some people's opinion, by the advantages of a school where women take all leadership positions, can focus on academics without being distracted by the social.</p>
<p>Bottom line, to me, is that there is every reason to believe that you can find everything you need at an all-female college. I would not recommend you jump the gun and second-guess yourself before even getting there. </p>
<p>If you are already there and feeling dissatisfied, that is another discussion.</p>
<p>Let us know more of your thoughts.</p>
<p>Colgate, while great academically and good socially for some, is known for having a large drinking/jock/frat-like culture and for being a bit on the conservative side. Think Duke, Dartmouth, Lehigh, Lafayette, Penn. </p>
<p>I sort of wanted the opposite of that type of environment, and I am ALSO interested in art history. I mainly applied to LACs, but to a different type of LAC... I got into Wesleyan, Vassar, Haverford, and a few others. I also applied to Yale (rejected) and Brown (accepted and attending!). I know it's too late, but Wesleyan and Vassar are GREAT for art history. </p>
<p>About the women's college thing: at Haverford, I spoke with some Bryn Mawr students who were very unhappy with the women's college experience. They came into the process being somewhat unsure of attending a women's college (even though Bryn Mawr and Haverford have a very strong cosortium), and they were right. A women's college is great for many, but if you have reservations, you are probably correct in your initial feelings.</p>
<p>jmmom & bjrwrh thanks for your pieces of advice.
jmmom: I am graduating from high school in a week and WILL be attending MHC from this fall on. I have heard your point of view from other people and I guess it is what made me accept MHC's offer. I really hope you are right! Actually I love everything about MHC except for that <em>all-female</em> thing:) But I have some friends there plus I have some friends at Amherst, so I hope that e.th. will be ok. Apart from the social part of the problem, however, there is exactly that lack of "male perspective" in classes that bothers me. I want to study psychology for which the male viewpoint is extremely important...
Whatever... I'll go and see what will happen. :)
Thank you again for sharing your opinions.</p>
<p>Ohh I probably shouldn't have seen this thread as I am going to Colgate as a transfer in the fall! But the whole thread was reassuring.</p>
<p>My story is pretty simliar to all of the people here who have transferred. I was far too concerned with brand-name and applied to a lot of tough schools hoping that my essays and rec would overshadow my dismal SAT scores. Ended up with Smith, American, and Hobart, and waitlisted at Skidmore. I didn't get in my first choices- Stanford and Colgate. Since I had better support for Smith than American even though the idea of spending four years in DC sounded exciting and many IR opportunities, I went for Smith and its LAC atmosphere. And like fredo's D, Smith wanted me the most.</p>
<p>I wasn't totally gung-ho as I filled out the summer paperwork and still held reservations. Within two months, I knew that I wanted to leave Smith but I kept my mouth closed and decided to put off the thoughts until Christmas. I did make nice friends and loved my classes, but the atmosphere just didn't seem to click. But when I came back for J-term to go on a class trip to Japan, and watched my dad get in his car, I knew that I had to get out. I called URochester immediately for their transfer application since they were rolling decisions. But I told myself not to say anything until I came back from Japan to see if I could adjust. But I couldn't stop thinking at nights so I started e-maiilng my acquaintances at Cornell and friends at Colgate. Then when I came back from Japan, I dropped the ball to my parents. And I took over the entire process- setting up financial aid deadlines and filling out applications. I ended up only applying to Colgate because A) Rochester didn't really have the "culture" that I was looking for B) it was unrealistic for me to get into Stanford at this point and C) I had a friend crisis so therefore, I couldn't write quality essays in time for Cornell on top of my schoolwork. And I had a nice feeling about Colgate and it was the only school that I looked at that made me feel very comfortable and at home. Convincing my professors and class dean wasn't very easy at all but I got the job done of giving two of them my rec forms. Then I quit thinking about Colgate and started preparing myself for next fall. Funny, just a few days before I got my actual letter, I had a great gut feeling that I had gotten in but I kept trying to downplay it. </p>
<p>Much to my shock, when I got the letter from Colgate and opened it up in my room, I couldn't stop screaming and crying at being so happy and being such an idiot! My emotions were uncontrollable at the point! That's how I knew that Colgate was the school for me even though I knew that I'd probably be an idiot for leaving Smith (for being really fantastic) but Colgate was such an idiot last year for not accepting me when it accepted me for sophomore year!</p>
<p>So yes, after I had gotten into Colgate and while my parents were away in Europe for spring break with my brother, I had to make crazy phone calls to Colgate and to figure out on my own in terms of priorities. I snuck on their LJ communities and met two transfers- both entered in their sophomore years and one came from a women's college. I e-mailed the students I had gotten in touch with with a few more questions that came up. I was also impressed with Colgate's professionalism- especially a student in the career services office who I thought was a staff! </p>
<p>It's amazing how things work out so much better when kids have a year to mature and to figure out what they want. For example, I was able to figure out the following:
-That I really am close to my parents but I am still independent. It's very difficult to get home from Northampton so Smith wasn't a place where I could just go home for a weekend. But I still wanted to be far away enough.
-History is still my love and therefore, I needed a department that actualy fits me, flexible major with tons of courses, more than I need for the major.
-Transfer isn't a crime. In fact, I think if we were all given an opportunity to do a gap year, we'd be more successful in admissions. My friend at Princeton took at gap year and now complains of how immature his roommates are. He swears that everyone needs to do a gap year to find out themselves and what they want. Also, transfer students are the best students to be with because of their experiences and they tend to be more mature about their decisions.</p>
<p>I liked Smith but it just wasn't the right place for me- just like the OP's D at Colgate. I really missed having guys' perspectives inside and outside of classrooms- guys are really more mature in college than high school, what I've learned from my visits to Amherst.</p>
<p>da_cute: Being persistant pays off!!! My ad-com whom I spoke to after six weeks of silence towards Colgate (lots of anger!) about reasons for a denied letter told me that if I still wanted to go to Colgate, then I needed to maintain a 3.0 or better and they would evaluate me again. I also wrote specifically WHY Colgate was the best school for me and finished the essay off (truthfully) that out of all 12 campuses I've visited, Colgate was the only one that made me feel like I'm at home. Now if I had that essay question last year.... who knows?</p>
<p>echosensei- Questions to ask about campus culture that I learned that I should've asked and have asked them to Colgate students.
1) Stress-levels: how do students cope with them? If you can, find out whether it's a taboo or it's a regular thing for students to take a semester due to STRESS. Also see if you can find out how many students wound up at hospital due to stress (suicides).
2) Sensitive issues like politics, religion, and sexual orientation. How accepting are conservatives?
3) What don't you like about the school that's unique to the school? I had to strangle every Colgate student I talked to to tell me what's wrong and every one of them gave a resounding answer: I can't think of anything aside from course registration!!! Okay, some fratboys don't think highly of the administration right now.... but whatever, I'm not a frat kid (or even a guy!).
4) Transportation access- what's in the area and how easy is it to get there? Is it feastible to go home for a weekend? 5 hour drives without own car are not acceptable to me :)
5) What do students do on weekends and nights? Are there events or activities planned for the students? (Crucial to small, rural schools like Colgate...)
6) What kind of opportunities are there to get off-campus- academically and socially? Where do people go?</p>
<p>Just some of the foundation questions that an 18 year old wouldn't have thought of.</p>
<p>This process was very difficult for my parents but my dad was more supportive and loose about it (even though Colgate is his alma mater...:)) so it was lucky that he handled the finances of the family rather than my mom. My mom was not very happy at all and just couldn't talk to me about going to Colgate and tried to talk me out of it (that's where I had to call up different offices to compare the services). I was grateful that she was with my grandmother (on a business trip) so she has her own mom to talk to! Basically her emotions got in the way of being rational. I told my dad that I thought it'd very awkward for my mom to pick me up from Smith and preferred that he did. He basically told her to get over it and accept the reality that I won't be going to Smith otherwise he'd come and get me. She did (I think, I hope) get over it enough to pick me up and we had a great time in the last 24 hours in Northampton. Now she's more excited about Colgate- me being closer is currently a huge plus for her. She realized that my decision was an "educated" one and knows that I'm responsible and just wants me to be happy. It wasn't that I was entirely unhappy, just some aspects of Smith so they knew that I was having an okay year, just "normal" first year transitions. Now they see this transfer as finding a better fit, not a drop in their parenting report card.</p>
<p>Fredo said it right:
<b>I also have never thought of this as a bad thing, in spite of some of the tough times she's experienced this year. In a lot of ways, she's needed this to help her grow and mature, as painful as some of it has been. But I don't see this as some failure to find the dream school; I see this as a natural process of learning about yourself and what makes you happy and what you have to do to achieve that goal.</b></p>
<p>I have been very fortunate to have amazing support from my Smithies because they do know that Smith isn't a place for everyone. They knew that it was an okay place for me, I just wasn't totally into it even though I tried.</p>
<p>Transfers are really some of the most amazing people you'll meet on campus- I had some nice friends who were transfers themselves to Smith! Good luck to everyone!</p>
<p>Oooo, so you're the transfer posting on LJ ^_^ I'm the group's resident black chick. I tend to be the one (angrily) discussing issues of diversity at the school. BTW, I have big plans for Colgate even after I transfer. Diversity sucks there now, but it would be wrong for me not to do anything about it...</p>
<p>Listen, if you feel Colgate is the right school for you, by all means, go for it. I know a LOT of people who are very happy to be there and I am happy for them. That said, if your interest is Japan and you plan on continuing taking courses in that, I'll say first that the Japanese department is AMAZING. It was too small for me, but the professors are to die for. I absolutely love them from the bottom of my heart ::sobs:: Most professors there are amazing actually, so you can look forward to meeting some awesome people ^_^</p>
<p>Southerndixie, I am saving your post. It was wonderful. Ticklemepink, I am sorry to hear about Smith. But your post was also wonderful. In fact, this entire thread should be required reading for everyone heading off to college, applying to college, and IN college. Life is too short to be unhappy, and there is absolutely no shame in transferring!</p>
<p>wjb:</p>
<p>Would you please post your and your daughter's observations about Colgate?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>