<p>I think a self-tutored 5 on the AP exam demonstrates a strong aptitude for math and a sharp learning curve - whether the class was initially his idea or not, he now knows what is involved and he wants to stay. My vote is to support his choice, he has the luxury of the S on his transcript and he is taking on a challenge rather than running from it - isn’t that what we all want for our adult children?</p>
<p>I’m going with the majority here. I think your son’s intuition on this is fine.</p>
<p>I’m going to post a different opinion than most of the others I’ve seen. On the fence as to whether he should stay in the class or not. Not that moving out of honors would be the way to go, but maybe back up a class. Take the calc class that is the prerequisit. Getting a 5 on the AP test is not a guarantee that he thouroughly knows the material.</p>
<p>If he doesn’t want to do that, go ahead and stick it out in the class. Getting a C in the class means to me he didn’t understand the material sufficiently. I would consider retaking, even if you don’t get credit for it, just to insure that he really knows the material. Math is SO important if you want to do than plug and chug type engineering problems. You really have to understand the math to understand the fundamentals behind the engineering. </p>
<p>I will agree that 15 hours a week is not unusual (except that people may need more than that) for a college math class. You said that he didn’t study much in high school. Well, I would wonder if he is truely spending a fruitfull 15 hours a week. I, also, didn’t need to study math in high school and it took me almost all my freshman year to develope the good study habits that I should have in high school.</p>
<p>Will add that MV is a weeder class for a lot of physical science/engineering/math major types. Analysis is the next weeder for math majors. If he’s enjoying the proofs (and a lot of kids who liked math up to this point don’t), then he is on the right track.</p>
<p>I’m sorry to disagree with the majority opinion, but I think this advice is misguided.</p>
<p>This course isn’t a side tangent that he can use to test his dedication or sense of self-worth; there are plenty of opportunities for that. He wants to study physics, and this is a prerequisite. He needs to understand the math.</p>
<p>There’s no way around it, and it won’t be possible to fake it later. Even a B is shaky ground; and yes, even a weak A. I think he should fill in his holes and take the class when he’s ready to get full value from it. That lousy professor is giving him the best possible advice.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the thoughts. They are much appreciated.</p>
<p>HPuck and MisterK: I think you are voicing some of my concerns.</p>
<p>However, the kid appears to be in the ‘Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead’ mode. So we will go ahead with the ride. I do think that he would be open to retaking the class in the future if it appeared that it would be helpful.</p>
<p>Well, at least he’ll get the benefit of making his own decisions, and either reaping the rewards or learning the lessons. But wow, college is really expensive for that kind of gamble.</p>
<p>To give an update for all of you who were so helpful:</p>
<p>DS stayed in the Honors MVC and just finished.</p>
<p>Midterm 1: C-/D: About 25th percentile. Most of the bottom 25-30% of the class dropped down after this.</p>
<p>Midterm 2: B+ range: 60-70th percentile.</p>
<p>Progressively did better on his problem sets and got 100% on the very last one.</p>
<p>Final exam: About 50th percentile</p>
<p>Semester Grade: Satisfactory (B in real life)</p>
<p>He feels comfortable with the material and knows he can reference his textbook as needed in the future. Great experience for him on many levels.</p>
<p>I really appreciate the Satisfactory/Unsatisfactory grading the first semester. Without that, it might have been tough to stay in the course, looking at a potential D or an F. Somehow, a ‘U’ looks better than a D/F. There are subjects that even if you don’t have much of an aptitude, if you put in the time, you could likely pull down a B or certainly a C, but math ain’t one of those subjects.</p>
<p>Congratulations to your son. He has doubtless learned a lot about how to apply himself, and about persistence in the face of adversity, as well as about multivariable calculus.</p>
<p>Good for your son! He must feel great to have challenged himself with something so difficult and come through it so well.</p>
<p>Thank you for sharing. I always get sad when I hear parents IRL trying to persuade their kids to coast through college to “protect” their GPA, like it’s some tropical flower that can’t stand the cold.</p>
<p>Your son has learned more than calc in my opinion, and it’s so wonderful that you were able to step back and let him sweat a little. He may end up referencing this class in his head dozens of times in his adult life when he’s tempted to take the easy way out, and how wonderful that it had such an empowering outcome.</p>
<p>My son was similarly prepared or not prepared for Multivariable Calc and aced the course with no problem Even so he is working is tail off on the math courses subsequent to this. His feeling is that if you don;t get those foundations down solidly, you are going to pay in the advanced courses because the math profs in those higher level course don’t give you a quarter leeway. If you are in the course they expect you to know the foundation materials very well. He’s pounding salt in these advanced math courses right now even having sailed through the Multivariable Calc for Math, Engineering and Physics majors which is the tough version of that course. </p>
<p>What it comes down to, is how difficult any future math courses based on the Multivariable Calc are at his college. At my son’s college, they are very difficult indeed, with the calc and linear algebra courses having screened out anyone who is not proficient and thoroughly knowledgeable of the all of that math.</p>
<p>^I also think sometimes you just reach a wall in math. My husband reached in about five or six courses in. (Luckily he took the last one pass/fail.) I had a friend who didn’t feel like she was losing it till she was a senior math major - but she did decide to go to law school. My oldest hasn’t had any trouble with the math courses he’s taken. </p>
<p>What I don’t understand is, given how long Calc AB and BC have been around (I took BC in 1973), why don’t college design their calc courses with that prep in mind?</p>
<p>ihs76 - Thanks for posting your update. I think these long term threads serve a good purpose for families in future years.</p>
<p>A key factor in this story was the student’s motivation and desire to stay. In other situations the student might be better off changing gears. Talking to upperclassmen could be a helpful way to decide if on the fence.</p>
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<p>Yes, he had decided to stay and <em>I</em> needed the reassurance to have the right frame of mind to fully support him, and you all helped me get there. I suspect that if I had been very firm about asking him to drop down, he likely would have done so, and would have missed out on a growth experience. Not earth or life-altering but one of those decision points that we come up on that can have long term consequences.</p>
<p>As I am sure many of you have experienced, it has been an eye opener for me in terms of seeing my (forever a baby to me) child out there on his own finding his way :).</p>
<p>ihs76 - Congrats on your son digging in and digging out! Be sure to remind him that things will continue to build from here, and that he’ll need to maintain his focus. That’s especially important since this math class will represent a foundation for further math/physics.</p>
<p>MisterK: I about had a heart attack when he informed me that he was going to take Honors Lin Alg next semester. Apparently the professor was a good one and the upper classmen had voted on it and unanimously decided that he should do this. Um, OK, I said.</p>
<p>But then, they changed the professor to someone not so good and he decided to take the regular Lin Alg instead (200 students in the class). I’m curious to see what he will think of it.</p>
<p>That’s good - he’ll find that he can get a completely fresh start with Linear Algebra; it doesn’t build on the Calc sequence at all. My guess is that the honors LA will be a bit more abstract, the regular a bit more computational. But they’re both clean/fresh, and (in my opinion) easier and more interesting - not grungy and messy like Calc :). If he enjoys proofs, or if he’s taken some LA before, maybe he should still consider the honors. It’s the second collegiate Linear Algebra class that can get really scary.</p>
<p>ihs, we have a dear family friend (now a college senior) who hated math in HS. Pure drudgery. Fast forward to college: he’s minoring in astrophysics. All that math? It’s useful! He likes it! He’s taken a bunch of it in college! </p>
<p>You never know where these paths will lead, and kudos for you for stepping back and letting your S pursue them.</p>
<p>15+ hours a week homework/studying for a math class was about right when I was an undergrad. He needs to go see the professor and talk to him about whether he should drop down. I think so long as your S is getting it and completely understands the material he will be OK. That said, my son is taking AP calc BC this year in HS and I have told him that no matter what he gets on the AP test I will not allow him to pass out of math in college. Worse comes to worse, it will be a gut class in freshman year. I think math builds so much upon previous classes and the focus can be different at different schools that I want him to get it at the school he ends up attending. His AP eccon teacher told S the same thing, retake in college and go for the easy A no matter what you get on the AP test. Freshman year can be difficult enough. Good luck to your son!</p>