<p>DS, still 17, is freshman at a T20 Research U. Attended mediocre public school in a middle of nowhere state. Took Calc AB, self studied not much for BC, got a 5 on both. Never studied in HS for math/science and had no proof-based math. Got 1 year math credit. Started Honors Multivariable Calc, with the idea that if too hard, would drop down to regular Multivariable Calc. He wants to study physics.</p>
<p>Was shellshocked first couple of weeks with the proofs and all, but said wanted to stay in. Some classmates have had Multivar Calc before. He's working hard at it, spending 15+ hrs/week on problem sets. Has classmates and friends who help him as needed. Took first test this week, placed about 25-30th percentile, I think a C. He was happy with his result. Prof suggested that the bottom 1/3 or so of the class (those below 60 with the mean of 66 and standard deviation of 18) drop down out of Honors. DS doesn't want to.</p>
<p>His reasoning: </p>
<ol>
<li>Thinks he can be more efficient in his studying now that he knows how it works.</li>
<li>Doesn't mind the time he spends on problem sets and thinks they're fun.</li>
<li>Saw the book for the regular class and thinks it looked 'tedious' and prefers the type of problems in his current class</li>
<li>Prof for the regular class is 'lousy.'</li>
<li>Thinks he will do better in the future.</li>
</ol>
<p>I will support him with whatever he wants to do, but I'm mainly concerned about him staying in a class where the prof has suggested he drop down from. I've suggested that he talk to the prof but the prof is apparently gone for couple of weeks and add/drop ends this friday. He will talk to the TA and explain his reasoning for wanting to stay in the class so they understand he isn't just being stubborn (maybe he is?). I asked him to ask the TA where he thinks he will learn the most and that is the main criteria he should use in making his decision.</p>
<p>I would add that first semester grades are reported on transcript only as 'S' if C- or above, 'U' if D or below. He can still get class credit with a D this semester and it is not included in GPA calculation.</p>
<p>Do you think its reasonable for him to remain in this class under these circumstances? He seems to really want to stay. Sorry so long :D</p>
<p>15+ hours on problem sets is perfectly reasonable. I think he should stay, and plan to meet with his TA regularly and spend 20 hours a week on the class. I’m sure he’s shellshocked about being in a proof-based math class, but if he enjoys it, he should stay. He’ll pick it up.</p>
<p>My DS went through a similar shock - coasted through first two semesters of Calc and then ran into MV Calc… 15 hours a week is on the low side for this class based my son’s experience… more like 20-25 including a weekly tutorial session at the campus learning center.</p>
<p>I think that he should stay in the class. The only possible reason for dropping the class, other than disliking it, would be if it irrevocably ruined his GPA, but you said that it will be reported as an S so long as he passes, so that is not a consideration. He is so fortunate to have found a class that he is excited by. He actually thinks the tough problem sets are fun! To be both challenged and excited by a course is the ultimate goal of a college class. College is about pushing the intellectual boundaries, not settling for the safe and easy. As someone who teaches on the college level, it has been my experience that students who are motivated rise to the occasion when the course material is tough. </p>
<p>As an aside, one of my kids has had a similar experience to your son. Killer honors math class, but chose to stay in it because it’s so interesting.</p>
<p>This is the kind of class that every physics and mathematics student should be taking. Proof-based classes teach you so much more than the plug-n-chug classes. This is a vital part of an education for majors in physics and math.</p>
<p>I wish that my university would offer classes like these, I have to settle only for the textbooks. Your son is very lucky. I actually wish I had to try in my math classes, at the moment they’re much too boring. He sounds like me (I’m a physics and math major as well), and I would suspect that if he dropped down he’d be bored out of his mind.</p>
<p>If he is enjoying himself and he is willing to ask for help from friends, TA and prof, and he will be happy to have an ‘S’ of whatever flavor, why not? The proofs will be valuable as he gets to physics problems sets where he is asked to derive and analyze, not just spit out facts. </p>
<p>The other advantage I’ll point out is that while there may be other folks in the class who have taken MV and are doing well, odds are that they have not hit their personal “wall” yet. Your S is hitting the wall here – and how one learns to scale that wall will have much to do with his success in college. He clearly is motivated to succeed here, and no matter how he does, he will learn a great deal from this experience.</p>
<p>A good friend of ours tells the story of a classmate at Penn Engineering who started freshman year having only gotten through Pre-Calc (not a great HS, kid overcame many obstacles just to get there). Struggled mightily freshman year with the math, but busted the top end of the curve a year later in MV. He figured out how to scale that wall, and once he had the tools to do it, he was set.</p>
<p>The Big Caveat I have is this – can he do this without trashing grades in his other courses? Are they all S/U as well? Yes, this could be exactly the exhilarating wild ride he wanted from his college, but he shouldn’t cut off his nose to spite his face. (BTDT at our house, with a proof-loving math major)</p>
<p>His reasoning makes sense to me. Especially #4. If the teacher for the regular class is ‘lousy’, he might actually learn less in that class and be less engaged.
Your son has aptitude for math, as evidenced by his 5s on the AP tests. I’d trust his instincts here. I don’t see a downside if the grades are basically pass/fail this semester.</p>
<p>If he wants to stay I think he should-- the prof wants to shrink the class a bit before it’s too late (add/drop)-- he’s not likely to think ill of someone who wants to stay and do the work. D has done that in high school for the same reasons-- a better teacher is worth a lot, even worth a lower grade if it means deeper understanding.</p>
<p>Every math student hits this point - suddenly there is math that they must really wrestle with. If he is enjoying the work, and can manage the rest of his load, go for it!</p>
<p>Sounds like a light bulb went on. He’ll be ok. It took me until junior year for that bulb to go on. Learning how to perform at the highest level is worth a few Cs. I like his refuse to lose attitude! You should be proud.</p>
<p>Thank you, thank you. Y’all made me feel much better. I never made it beyond calculus in college so don’t have any knowledge of these advanced areas.</p>
<p>CountingDown: yes, all courses are S/U this semester. </p>
<p>Gwen Fairfax: I was surprised to hear the prof wanted to drop a whole 1/3 of his class. I wonder if that means the curve will keep moving to the right. Truthfully, I don’t even care if he gets a ‘U’ at this point.</p>
<p>CRDad: I am very proud of him, and let him know it more than he wanted to hear.</p>
<p>gusaspara: I feel some responsibility as I suggested he take the course in the first place. He thought he should start in Calc II, and I talked him up a couple of rungs.</p>
<p>I was mainly trying to make myself feel better, and it worked :).</p>
<p>If he can get through it with a C-, I’d stay in. But remember, if the bottom third of the class drops and the prof still grades on the curve, then YOU will be the bottom of the class. Bummer…</p>
<p>I just see too many college grads who are still dependent on their parents for every little decision.</p>
<p>This situation is not a make-or-break, life altering one. It is now time for him to make his own choices and decide whether they were right or not. I’m in no way suggesting that you not let him know your feelings about his choices if he asks - but in some ways it’s time to guide him as you would a friend and not a child. Again -this is not a critical situation where more guidance might be necessary. You said that you will support him whatever choice he makes - my fear is that your support will not be genuine - and he’ll be able to tell.</p>
<p>I will echo the comments that a rigorous MVC class is very tough. I personally found it far harder than my classes in DE and Linear Algebra.</p>
<p>As long as he thinks he will not be so overcome with proofs that he can understand the concepts enough to apply them. IIRC MVC is very important for your first upper division Mechanics and E&M classes in Physics. </p>
<p>FYI, I don’t recall doing alll that great in my regular non-honors MVC class and still did okay as a Physicsi major.</p>
<p>But hopefully he will do really well since he really seems to like it.</p>
<p>It is not unreasonable to be spending the amount of time your S is on math homework. But, I also don’t understand the need to push himself like he is. I guess if he enjoys it, but he may be missing something he would get if he dropped down, imo. If he drops down is it going to prevent him from taking the physics classes he wants? If he does stay he should make sure he talks to the prof and TA. And if he ends up with a C will that prevent him from taking other classes in math or physics? Check the catalog to see what the cutoff is. Good luck to him!</p>