<p>RE: Under Grad - Rutgers reputation is proportional to the distance from. The further the better. (Life long NJ res.)</p>
<p>I think my daughter does NOT prefer to go to Rutgers for a couple of reasons- everyone in her school seems to go there and the spread=out campus is unappealing. She is interested in studying both Communications and Music. And as one person here said the Music Conservatory is good. We are looking at many other OOS public and a few top private. In the end money will be a factor for us. GC says she has a good shot of a free ride to Rutgers, that is hard to resist. Loved Penn State and Maryland, but am not hopeful about the price at this point.</p>
<p>My S1 is at Rutgers and is really enjoying it. He has many friends who got accepted to Ivies but couldn’t afford it, so are at RU. S2 is at a small, private, prestigious liberal arts school and hates it. Now wants to transfer to RU. Go figure.</p>
<p>Rutgers is great for the right student, one who is independent and not looking for small school perks. One of my son’s very good friends just graduated from Rutgers, did a great broadcasting internship, and is now a contender for a great Sports announcing job at a major state school.</p>
<p>Some people have posted that the only reason they heard of Rutgers is because of sports. Growing up in New Jersey, the only reason I heard of most OOS schools, public or private, was because of sports. I had never heard of Duke or Georgetown before they produced top basketball teams. Penn State and Michigan? Football. UCLA? Basketball. Notre Dame? An old Ronald Reagan movie. 
There were a couple of exceptions: Berkley and Wisconsin-Madison? Liberal, hippy protests. Don’t get me wrong. As a kid, I dreamed of going to Berkley, Wisconsin or Columbia BECAUSE of the “liberal, hippy protests.” I thought that made them remarkable.</p>
<p>People “hear about” different colleges in different ways. My parents, uncles, aunts, etc., did not go to college. So for people like me, there was no tradition of discussing colleges at the dinner table, or hearing about dear old dad’s or mom’s alma mater. Of course, everyone had heard of the military academies and the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Lizmane, I am interested in the factual basis for your belief that “in the North East region, none of the public schools are in the same ball park with the public schools in Mid West or CA”. In the Midwest, the publics are fine schools, but I see only Michigan and probably Wisconsin (although its laid back atmosphere and liberal politics get much of the out of state focus) having a better reputation than Binghamton, Rutgers or Penn State. </p>
<p>And have you compared the stats of SUNY Geneseo and TCNJ with their Midwestern counterparts or the relative difficulty of OOS admission at UDel or UConn with midwestern schools? </p>
<p>I think you are correct that the wealth of private school options in the Northeast hurts the public schools’ reputations. So does the lack of a true NY flagship school.</p>
<p>As for CA, in much of the country, Berkeley and UCLA are far better known than the others and much of the UCLA rep is sports-based. This is not to say that they are not excellent schools.</p>
<p>As flagships are so large, with so many fields to compare, it would take a very extensive analysis to rate the various schools. I would not use the US News rankings, since they are so easily manipulated.</p>
<p>my sentiment about the comparative lack of recognition of NE public schools is based on the following two factors.</p>
<p>(1) Yes, the dreaded USNWR ranking. We can all say, this can be easily manipulated, etc. However, given that this is perhaps the best known college ranking system, regardless of whether some or all part of the ranking system is bogus or not, it does matter partly because of the self fulfilling nature of the ranking system (meaning, high caliber students are more likely than not to flock to highly ranked schools), and partly because it does influence public perception. Besides, they are not coming up with the ranking through some random drawing by drunken sailors in a smoked filled room. They do use some objective measures and matrix. Of course, it’s flawed, but then again, all ranking systems are flawed including our own private belief system. </p>
<p>(2) international recognition and reputation. This is both based on my private observation and international ranking system. My work involves a lot interactions with colleagues from all over the world. Believe me, CA public schools, Midwestern big 10 flagship state schools and the likes of U Texas Austin and UNC Chapel Hill are very well recognized and considered excellent schools. Nobody heard of SUNY Binghamton, Genesco, Rutgers, TCNJ, etc (Rutgers may be just a little better). International business men/women overseas are far more elitist and rank conscious than their American counterparts. If you show up and they ask you which school you went to, your answer of Univ of Illinois Champaign Urbana vs. SUNY Binghamton WILL affect their initial impression of you, and this matters in terms of your ability to conduct your business to your maximum advantage. </p>
<p>Oh, by the way, the international perception and prestige have NOTHING to do with sports. They couldn’t care less. They really see these public schools as top academic choices.</p>
<p>If you check some international university ranking, you will find plenty of CA public schools and most of the mid western flagship state schools plus some flagship schools in the South within its top 100 list. As for NE, only Penn State barely, just barely makes it to top 100. After that, even within top 200 range, there is hardly any NE schools while the ranking more or less exhausts most of the Univ of Cali system schools of any import, most of the major Midwestern public schools, and some public schools in the South. See for yourself:</p>
<p>[QS</a> World University rankings 2010 - 201 to 300 | Top Universities](<a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2010/results/201-300]QS”>http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2010/results/201-300)</p>
<p>One could say, this is not a valid ranking system. However, to the degree that it IS considered a very solid ranking system by those who are in a position to allocate resources and contracts, it does matter, regardless of whether we think it’s fair nor not.</p>
<p>So, if you are shopping for a school, all things equal, if one school also gives you a bit more recognition and respect both domestically and internationally than others, for many people, though not all, it would be a preferred option. And, I stand by my statement earlier that it’s a shame that we in NJ, for instance, can’t get that wonderful option of paying in state tuition for world renowned institutions, while residents of CA, mid western states, and some southern states have that luxury, though we are paying through the nose for these schools (state taxes) whether our children go there or not.</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to reply. I agree with much of what you saw in your paragraph 1, such as that the USNWR rankings, however flawed, are somewhat self-fulfilling and not put together by “drunken sailors in a smoke filled room”, although “drunken sailors” and “smoke filled room” have opposite meanings–the former describes mindlessness, the latter deliberate manipulation (which does seem to play a role in USNWR, such as when Wake Forest is revealed to have downgraded schools ranked ahead of it and Ohio State to have ranked only Harvard as comparable.</p>
<p>Incidentally, did you check which,if any Midwestern or Southern states other than VA have 2 schools USNWR ranked higher than the PA pair of Penn State and Pitt, or a third ranked higher than Temple, or are you just going with flagships?</p>
<p>Regarding your paragraph 2, we will have to disagree. Although in my 30+ years of working for international companies, including working in Europe for one of their 5 largest companies, I did find them very status oriented, almost none of them knew more than 10 US schools. </p>
<p>I took a quick look at the ranking guide you provided a link to; when the link page showed Rutgers ranked above Notre Dame, RPI, Wake Forest, Miami, Tulane, GW and Brandeis, I laughed and stopped looking, except to note that it appeared only 3 CA schools ranked above Penn State at 98 and UMD at 101–both outranking Georgetown at 150. Finishing only 8 places above Penn State may not bother Dartmouth alumni as much as being 26 behind BU.</p>
<p>I do wish that NJ’s high taxes produced a cheaper and better state flagship (not to mention cheaper and better government). Much of those taxes, however, go into the local school districts, which are generally well above those in Southern states. As Rutgers faces far more competition within driving range than any Californian, Midwestern or Southern college, it has an uphill battle to fight.</p>
<p>I think we can agree that Penn State is a top university. Going north from there- the state schools are pretty so-so.</p>
<p>As y0u move north, you have the smallest states in the country and a great concentration of top private schools, neither of which is conducive to great flagships. NY is the outlier in size, but atomized its state universities, although the mid 50% GPA at Binghamton starts at 91, which I supect compares pretty favorably nationally, especially when you consider the academic quality of NYC area schools in non-impoverished areas.</p>
<p>Penn State is as good state school if a student wants to attend an extremely large school where they are nothing more than a number. I don’t really get why a kid who is living in New Jersey would consider Penn state or any other state school unless it is costing the same as their in state school. Rutgers and The College of New Jersey are both good state schools…one is large and the other is small. It is nice that New Jersey kids have two different types of equally good state schools to consider.</p>
<p>NJ public education funding is down and it is hurting both Rutgers and TCNJ. I think leaving NJ is the best option, personally. Penn State would not be my first choice, but there are better options than either NJ school for many students.</p>
<p>Michigan is north of Pennsylvania. Technically so is the state of Washington.</p>
<p>I believe the discussion was about state universities in the northeast. That would not be Michigan or the state of Washington. There are some good NY state schools, as has been noted in other threads. There are decent departments in some of the other NE state universities, but overall, other parts of the country (TX, Big Ten schools, Washington, Florida, Georgia etc) have stronger state universities.</p>
<p>Oh, lol. I just saw the statement about north of PA. It was a joke anyway.</p>
<p>NJ is a small state and many wealthier, high achieving suburbs. For kids from those high schools, Rutgers is too close and too NJ for their taste. Many parents, myself included, would prefer our kids go to smaller schools and experience life outside of NJ. With few excpetions (UVA and Michigan and possibly Penn State), it is not clear that there is an advantage to paying OOS tuition at a large public university simply because it is not NJ. It is different in California, for example, as a student from LA would get a very different experience heading to Berkeley. </p>
<p>OTOH, there are real advantages to private schools, with smaller classes, easier to naviagate, and closer relationships to professors. However, that has to be weighted against the cost of attendance. Our HS sometimes has a panel of college freshman come back and speak to the PTO and students. I remember one girl that was going to Rutgers state that while it wasn’t her first choice, she thought it was great. Among both current students and alumni I know, most are very happy. One friend complained that it took his son 5 years to graduate, but he started out in one field and changed to a very different one. </p>
<p>Many top NJ students look at Rutgers as a financial choice, but not the top choice. There are so many smaller universities and LACs within a few hours drive of most NJ families, that the choices can be overwhelming.</p>
<p>mom2and, that is an excellent summary of the situation. I would add only that because NJ in state tuition is higher than average, many kids find that they can get merit aid to make out of state small schools very similar in cost</p>
<p>The other state universities will give superior students about 12K per year bringing the cost down to about 23K per year which is the full cost of Rutgers before any scholarships. However Rutgers will probably give that student between 10K and 23K which makes it the more affordable choice if you live in NJ. TCNJ only gives a max of $6500 per year.</p>
<p>And yes, a lot of those kids who feel like they “settled” for Rutgers really love it there. If the student can get in I would recommend the Honor’s program - you get to choose from Honor’s sections of classes and live in an Honor’s dorm.</p>
<p>Agree with mom2and that it is not clear that there is an advantage to paying OOS tuition to attend some other state’s big state U. Take Penn State vs. UConn–and I know this goes against momofwildchild’s comment that everything North of Penn State is so-so. UConn’s campus is beautiful (state is in the midst of a $2.3 billion capital improvement program); student body is just as good as at Penn State (according to College Board, SAT scores at UConn are slightly higher than at Penn State; 1/3 of Conn vals go to UConn; typically between 3 and 5 of the top ten kids at our public high school got there, and I think this is typical for Conn high schools, it really has become the #1 choice for many top students in Conn); my guess is the faculty comes from the same grad schools. I also am certain that if you put a kid in a big lecture hall at either place, the classes would be indistinguishable. So, I believe that the quality of the undergraduate education is the same. UConn better in basketball, Penn State better in football and, according to Princeton Review, has better parties. I would have hard time paying the extra $10,000 to $15,000 for my kid to go and get what I think is the same eduction at an OOS big public U because it has a better football team or better parties or just because it is out of Connecticut. This comes from someone who thinks it is worth paying a lot more to send my kid to a small LAC. It’s not just about the money for me, it’s what I’m getting for the money.</p>
<p>nepop - Now come on. Quit being rational.</p>