Teachers keep trying to move D down in math

<p>From my perspective, it is precisely those students who are B - B+ students in math who most benefit from AP Calculus AB. The strong math students can take college calc with no great problems – the slightly weaker students benefit from all the hand-holding in the AP Calculus AB, and particularly benefit from the much, much slower pace than the college course uses. </p>

<p>We wouldn’t tell a student who got a B+ in English not to bother taking English as a senior. We shouldn’t be telling the student who got a B+ in precalculus that she isn’t worthy of taking calculus as a senior in HS and should instead wait a year (with the obvious loss of retained information) to take it as a freshman in college!</p>

<p>Schools that restrict enrollment in Calculus AB to only selected students are a lot more about trying to protect high pass rates than they are about doing what is best for kids. Their practice is contrary to recommendations of the College Board, and contrary to all of the evidence on how kids do. Even a student who doesn’t achieve a high enough grade on the AP exam typically benefits from the class and does better when retaking the class in college.</p>

<p>Your daughter is at the point where I would stop pushing on this issue. AP Statistics is much more useful for life than Calculus, and she would have some extra time to navigate the additional set of senior year responsibilities.</p>

<p>My D, a non-math type, took “regular” college prep calculus (neither AP nor Honors) and that was perfectly adequate for her non-STEM college career, where she is in an Honors program. She didn’t have to take any math in college except a stats class that was needed for her social science major, and she had accumulated adequate AP credits from other classes that were more up her alley. A C plus (or, less likely, a B minus) in AP Calc would have added nothing to her college applications, and she would have hated every minute of the class as she struggled to keep up with students with more natural talent in math. It’s not a class for those with no plans to do further math in college, so what’s the point? (I’ll add that I never took pre-calculus or calculus in high school or college, majored in a poli sci, went to an Ivy law school, and have never regretted that I still have no idea what calculus is!)</p>

<p>How are your daughter’s grades in her other classes? If very high…and high test scores…is it your desire (and hers) to have her apply to top ranked LAC or university? </p>

<p>If yes…and most of the kids from your school and area schools applying to top ranked colleges take AP Calc…then she may need to continue on this path. If you are in one of the NY metro area schools (Westchester, Long Island, NYC private or application school) your D will need to show that she has taken the most rigorous courses. In our suburban school district, high performing kids who aren’t great in math still usually take AP Calc AB (kids who do well in math take AP Calc BC.) The guidance dept will strongly suggest an AP calc course for the high performing kids. Otherwise, they are not competitive with similar kids in our school (and surrounding schools.)</p>

<p>AP Stats could be an elective, but, in our school, it is not viewed as rigorous as AP Calc. For many humanities students, Stats will be much more helpful…although if anyone is interested in social science, especially economics, Calculus is necessary. (Actually, in many schools, Poli Sci is very quantitative and calculus is necessary, too. I’m surprised there was a poster who said her Poli Sci major kid didn’t need it.)</p>

<p>I don’t necessarily agree with the AP Calc race…but it’s the reality around here for kids interested in highly ranked schools (not just HYPSM…but all Ivies, a tier lower, top out of State flagships and top LAC’s.)</p>

<p>If you’re not in an area/school where honors/top students are expected to take Calc, or not interested in a top ranked school, then Stats or another math course in senior year would be OK.</p>

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<p>Not necessarily. </p>

<p>Depending on the college and/or major…AP Calc AB may not be accepted at all for full fulfillment of college-wide math requirements, count only as elective credit, or will just mean the student must take the next advanced math course in the sequence. </p>

<p>Also, I never took any calc in high school and had few issues keeping up in my calc course. Granted, I attended a high school where kids had no issues with self-studying themselves to get 4-5s without taking the AP Calc.</p>

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<p>Agreed. Basically, if you’re in honors-level or higher and you’re getting anything lower than a B in most mainstream high schools I know of…you’d be strongly encouraged to drop down. If you’re not performing at at least a B level…you’ll end up falling further behind and need to exert much more intense effort just to maintain parity with those who are suited for that level. Unless the rigor of the school’s Honors/AP curriculums leave much to be desired…</p>

<p>Moreover, I don’t know about you…but with the exception of a few real slacker students and college STEM majors…no one who is an honors-level student considers a B to be “above average”.</p>

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<p>Depends on the comparison group.</p>

<p>Compared to all high school students, a B average is above average. The public 4-year universities in California target admitting the top third of the high school graduates as freshmen. The least selective of these universities admits students with a 2.5 GPA (with limited weighting) and 900 SAT CR+M (or a higher SAT with a lower GPA, or a lower SAT with a higher GPA). So that means that the median high school graduate is somewhat below that level.</p>

<p>Of course, if the comparison group is students who are a year ahead in math and considering taking calculus, it could very well be that a B average is below average.</p>

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D maintains a pretty steady 94 despite the math struggles. Where she applies is dictated by finances as well as grades, as we have an unrealistically high EFC and can’t justify $55K per year. We are hoping she can get merit aid somewhere. </p>

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<p>Is it your basic contention that her teachers are right?</p>

<p>ucbalumnus, I suspect “regular calculus” is calculus lite, without trig functions. Limits, plus derivatives and integrals of polynomials. Maybe transcendentals.</p>

<p>Here is a problem I have with this (and some people here know my personal story): The xaniaD seems to have no idea what direction she is headed. She is experiencing many new subjects for the first time. If she suddenly wakes up and discovers a previously unknown passion for, say, physics, she would be better served to be on the top math track. Since she doesn’t have a clear direction (not many Juniors do), she should keep the doors open as much as possible.</p>

<p>Getting kicked down sends the message that she’s just not good at this, and should look elsewhere for a subject to pursue. Overcoming that obstacle, she would still likely be behind her peers in following a math-related passion.</p>

<p>She seems to be surviving. I would probably encourage either AP Statistics or AP Calculus, as it seems like there are definite advantages to both.</p>

<p>D was accelerated in math in 8th grade, but ended up a mid 80’s student in algebra that year. She was placed in regular geometry in 9th and was in the high 80’s with some tutoring. 10th grade was more of a struggle–not a great teacher and not as much time to concentrate on math while taking chemistry, etc. I think her final grade was a 78 in algebra2/ trig (with tutoring.) She started pre-calculus in 11th grade, had a great teacher, but by the first quarter it was clear she was not doing well and did not have a strong background from the previous year. We had to decide whether she was going to put massive effort into the class or just drop it. Guidance counselor told us to just drop it, even though his mantra was 4 years of all academics. He felt it wasn’t worth her struggling and that it would impact her other classes, gpa and EC’s. It was clear that math/ science was not her field. Instead I had her tutored in SAT math all thorugh junior year to bring her scores up to 600+ range. She already had shown her strength in reading/ English.</p>

<p>So when she presented to college she was a lopsided kid with strength in verbal (99th percentile–720 SAT/ 35 act) but not math (610 SAT/ 23 ACT). She had real strength in art (her ultimate major) and music with great recs from her English teacher and powerful essays. Guidance counselor’s rec was very strong too.</p>

<p>So she was just accepted by NYU (ED). She was also told by Muhlenberg, Goucher and Brandeis that they were disappointed that she had pulled her application since they had reviewed it positively. Great interview with Skidmore too. No one ever mentioned or asked about math.</p>

<p>She is taking it again this year–but a lower level College Algebra class (96 first quarter!) At NYU she is not required to take an actual math class–can substitute other classes related to computers or even philosophy.</p>

<p>While schools would probably prefer 4 years of math–accelerated and honors/AP–they are obviously accepting many students without it. I would not push a child to take honors/AP level if it is not their strength since it will impact other classes/ EC’s and might prevent someone from concentrating on an area which is a strength.</p>

<p>Sometimes it is hard to turn away from some options and close off some paths. But it seems like OP’s D isn’t going to accel at a math-related pursuit. Perhaps more effort should be placed on what she is truly good at and enjoys.</p>

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<p>Is this a weighted or an unweighed GPA. If it is weighted, what is her unweighted GPA?
How much weighting is given to Honors courses?</p>

<p>If her weighted grades are in the low 80’s, then realistically her unweighted grades in these courses maybe in the C range.</p>

<p>If it is just one teacher telling her she shouldn’t be taking honors or AP, I would question it, but not when it is every one of her math teachers. It could be her participation in class (taking longer to get it than other students), or it could be she is getting Bs by doing extra credit and getting credit homework.</p>

<p>Most people in life do not need calculus.</p>

<p>“Is it your basic contention that her teachers are right?”</p>

<p>Right about what? That she would have less of a struggle in an easier math class? Clearly yes, it would seem they are right. </p>

<p>You admit you have to push and push and she must work and work in response to your pushing, for the B. </p>

<p>One piece of advice my senior gave her younger brother after completing her applications: don’t be too proud to take CP if you can learn and get an A and enjoy the class. She herself struggled through some of the hardest honors courses at her school (there is no freshman or sophormore AP); when she had to translate a couple of 84 grades into C letter grades for colleges on a 4.0 scale, she felt she had made some mistakes in this regard.</p>

<p>I did the same thing that your daughter is doing, and ended up with about the same grades, because my parents pushed me to take the honors courses. If I could do it again, I would definitely not do it. Math probably brought my GPA down like 2-3 ppoints. Look at it from your daughters respective. Is she doing it because she wants to or because YOU want her to and she just doesn’t Dissapoint you. I would recommend not doing it, but in the end it’s your decision. Also, teachers recommend a course level for a reason</p>

<p>A high school my son was districted to go to wanted to put him in regular math his freshman year because his high school placement test math score wasn’t the greatest. He chose to go to a different school (both were Catholic high schools). The principal in his chosen high school took one look at his math score on the placement test and immediately put him in an honors math class. He did very well in that honors Algebra class and doubled up the next year doing honors Algebra 2 and honors Geometry. This time he didn’t do as well but still faired pretty well. Junior year they put him him in a pre-calc class and as a senior put him in Xavier University’s Calculus class where he’s getting a B. </p>

<p>I’m very glad they challenged him and put him in those honors classes. I probably would have pushed for it if they hadn’t because I know he is capable, he just needs to be pushed. I think the reason he’s getting a B is because he didn’t turn in some homework. :o/</p>

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<p>Not at our school. The pace is MUCH quicker in the AP Calculus course, with much less explanation and review because MOST of the students already understand and can apply the concepts. The others are left in the dust.</p>

<p>We had an issue with placement in English for one of our kids. The difference was he was getting an A in the previous years’ courses. The teacher had other reasons for not recommending him for AP/honors level courses. BUT his understanding of the material was clearly excellent. He took those AP level courses with ease. </p>

<p>In the case of this OP, the daughter is NOT doing this with ease. They are hoping for good merit aid. Yes…schools DO look at the rigor of your courses, but a less than stellar GPA affected by these math grades could make a difference in how the schools award merit aid. Many use a combination of GPA and SAT or ACT scores to award merit aid.</p>

<p>OP- I don’t know you or your HS. I know lots of schools where if your D was a boy, the teachers would look at him proudly as a kid who has to work very hard to compensate for the fact that he doesn’t “get things” intuitively, and he’d be the poster child for someone who is determined to succeed in math. But your D is a girl- and so the path of least resistance (“why push herself at something she’s not good at?”) is always the default.</p>

<p>I’m not saying that’s what’s happening here, since I don’t know your D or her teachers. But I’d encourage your D to figure out what she wants to do, how frustrating her math situation is, and then go from there. If it’s just irritating to her that she has to work harder than other kids… well, I’d encourage her to stick out the harder math, but allow her to make the ultimate decision. If it’s truly frustrating and demoralizing, then maybe her struggle with math has come its natural course.</p>

<p>But I was a math-phobe who was never encouraged… discovered in grad school that I was actually good at math once I finally had a professor who made math come alive. I can point to at least a dozen girls/women who woke up to their math skills (or at least non-deficiencies) in college. If your D doesn’t love math it is unlikely she will become a physicist, computer scientist, or mechanical engineer. But what about physician, pharmacist, economist, accountant, urban planner? There are loads of careers that require college level math that don’t require her to be a math genius. Why close the door on all these fields now by having your D concede defeat?</p>

<p>I don’t believe in pushing your kid beyond their natural limitations. But you’re describing a kid who is doing fine but just needs to work harder. If it’s not keeping her up until midnight or keeping her from doing other things she enjoys more, I think it’s worth encouraging her (but not forcing her) to stick it out.</p>

<p>And I’ve got friends who are doctors, tax experts, and other “math-lite” professionals who’d be the first to describe all the times they were told to get off the college prep/AP math track to make way for the engineers.</p>

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<p>If I’m reading it right, this is the third time that you would be going beyond their recommendation? Agree with above poster that one teacher rec could be an outlier but that 3 makes a trend.</p>

<p>You say your daughter wants to take AP. Why not have her go make her case herself and stay out of it? If she can convince her teacher(s) that she really wants to and is capable, then maybe they will let her. She will have ownership and it will be up to her to perform rather than you to ‘push’ her. She will be just a year away from college where you won’t be around to push. </p>

<p>DS, after never having to study for his A’s in HS math, including self study for a 5 on Calc BC, got below class average in his Honors multivariable calc midterm first college semester. Prof (and we) recommended dropping to regular MVC. He went and discussed with his TA why he wanted to stay in the class (found the material interesting and was starting to figure out how to do proofs which he had never done before), got permission to stay, did fine by the final and finished with a B for the semester. He also had to convince me why he should stay in the class. A year later, this Christmas, he had the book for that class out, going over it to fill in the gaps of stuff he did not get the first time.</p>

<p>He played hockey for years, was capable not great, and did OK only with hard work. Finally gave it up, found another sport and is now tops on the D3 college varsity team. Different strokes…</p>

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<p>Not sure why taking ‘regular’ calc is closing any doors. She is still ahead in math and there is no reason she can’t take calculus in college.</p>

<p>We know doctors, accountants, engineers and other professionals who had to take calculus and other higher level math IN COLLEGE but never took an AP math course in high school. And some who took college precalc during their senior year in high school. And I’m not just talking about the parent generation… I’m also talking about kids the same age as mine.</p>

<p>And I <em>am</em> a doctor who had to take calculus in college despite having taken Calc BC in HS as my college would not accept AP credits.</p>