Difficulty with math - need advice!

Parents Forum
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<p>Found this forum a few days ago and this is my first post. I really need advice about my D and her problems with math. She's a sophomore and failing Functions (the lower-level, non-honors level of Pre-Calc), but made all A's and one B in her other classes. </p>

<p>Last year she got all A's except for math, and a 5 on her AP Human Geography exam (the only AP class freshmen are allowed to take) without studying for it. She barely got a B in Algebra II. She started with Honors Algebra II/Trig, but after failing the midterm I let her drop a level. Did get A's and B's in Algebra I and Geometry, but she had excellent teachers then, which unfortunately isn't the case now. </p>

<p>In retrospect, she was accelerated too fast and shouldn't have taken Algebra I in 7th grade. Her test scores indicate that math is her weakness:</p>

<p>9th grade PSAT: 65 Reading, 64 Writing, 47 Math
9th grade ACT: 27 Composite, 31 Reading, 29 Writing, 28 Science, 20 Math </p>

<p>She's identified gifted, but I wonder if I should have her evaluated for a math disability. She claims she "doesn't get" math, but I can't tell if she really can't do it or if she's just frustrated and not focusing. Even with 2 hours tutoring a week, plus my reteaching and helping her with every homework assignment, she barely made a D first 9 weeks. </p>

<p>Right now, she's very discouraged and wants to drop math before the end of the semester. I don't want to let her do that, but would it be better to try again next year? My concern is that over such a long time, she would forget what math she does know and get even farther behind. She's taking two AP classes and says she's overloaded with work and math is ruining her GPA. </p>

<p>And she insists that, if she gets through math with a C or better this year, she is not taking any more math -- this will be her 4th year of HS math. But won't it look terrible for college admissions if she doesn't take math Jr or Sr year? (She wants to take a 2nd foreign language instead of math). </p>

<p>What looks worse for college admissions: not taking math after 10th grade or trying Pre-Calc next year and risking a poor grade? Also, what about taking computer programming or statistics (not AP) instead of Pre-Calc?</p>

<p>Thank you for reading this!</p>

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<p>If I were you, and it's at all possible, I'd sit down with the math teacher to find out what exactly is giving her problems - is it attention to detail (dumb mistakes) or a lack of understanding? If the latter, is it due to not having understood the basics, or has she really reached her limit in math?</p>

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<p>I suggest just doing math repetitively. It's what helped me A LOT as a child and even in high school. Do problems of similar nature over and over again, and slowly, the level will rise.</p>

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<p>Have her tested by a private testing agency if you can afford it - it's not cheap. If not, have the school do some diagnostic testing. She may well have a math disability. Skewed scores are one signal of that. The upside to having her diagnosed is that she can get more time for the SAT tests - the schools are not made aware of the compensation. Then you may need to get her some tutoring to fill in the gaps - this is different from tuturing in a specific subject. The tutor would hopefully teach according to the diagnostic tests. The downside to testing in public school is that, if she is diagnosed with a disability, you have to be ready to accept the results and that varies from school to school. If you like her guidance counselor, ask her or him what the course of action will be if the school makes a diagnosis of a math disability.</p>

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<p>If she likes to read, as I would expect from a 5 in AP world history, she (or you) might like to read </p>

<p>Amazon.com:</a> Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics: Teachers' Understanding of Fundamental Mathematics in China and the United States (Studies in Mathematical Thinking and Learning.): Books: Liping Ma </p>

<p>or the interesting articles at </p>

<p>Hung-Hsi</a> Wu's Home Page </p>

<p>Both will help her understand math better. </p>

<p>For specific math review and practice, I like ALEKS </p>

<p>ALEKS</a> -- Assessment and Learning, K-12, Higher Education, Automated Tutor, Math </p>

<p>which allows UNLIMITED free trials. (If you like it after a bunch of free trials, paying for it gets you cumulative records of progress and some other useful features, but you don't have to pay for it if you try it and don't like it.)</p>

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<p>I don't think your daughter should drop math now. I think you should look into why and where she's having problems specifically. If your daughter is getting mid-60s in verbal and writing on the PSATs in the 9th grade, she's obviously very intelligent and smart. She should be able to get OK grades in math, even if she's not a 'math person.' </p>

<p>Look at her assignments and exams. If possible, do this with her teacher. If her teacher isn't good, see about speaking with the head of the math department. Where is she having trouble? It may be that, by taking Algebra I in 7th grade, she never learned the basics, which is what is hurting her now. Math is pretty much cumulative: if she missed things early on, she will have lots of trouble with the things that follow. </p>

<p>Are there any good tutoring centers near you? I know near my there's Sylvan Learning Centers. I've never used them, but from what I've heard they start off by giving a bunch of academic assessments to tell where the specific problems lie. All tutoring is specifically for your child based on their strengths and weaknesses. </p>

<p>Your tutor now may be trying to help your daughter understand what the class is studying now, but that may not be the best place to start.</p>

<p>I suspect that she needs to spend time focusing on re-learning the basics in a one-on-one or small group environment where she can't get lost in the crowd. It's like trying to teach a kid to write a short story when they still get the alphabet mixed up. You've got to first learn the alphabet, writing, spelling, sentence construction, and everything else. She may have a learning disability that kept her from learning the basics to begin with. If she keeps having trouble, I'd suggest having her evaluated (privately, if possible).</p>

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<p>I thought I was the only one with a somewhat math-challeneged kid (by CC standards)! Welcome to the club. I see some eerie similarities with my D's story. First of all, math is a special language which needs to be taught in the following sequence: AlgebraI/Geometry -> AlgebraII/Trig -> Pre-Calc -> Calculus -> higher stuff. Each level sets the foundation for the following one. If a kid has a gap in the sequence, the next level will look very frustrating and intimidating. It looks like your D's math sequence is all over the place. Not a good thing. I would talk to the head of math department at your D's school to see what can be done to bring your D back on track. She might need to go back to Alg II/Trig before she can venture into Pre-Calc. And definitely she has to get out of honors classes. She needs to be in the regular math, which is the same stuff as honors, but taught at a slower pace. Fixing broken sequence and slowing down the pace worked miracles for my D.</p>

<p>Secondly, many artistic types do not do well in math because of overthinking/not paying attention to little details, which is critical in math. Practice, practice, practice. Sylvan can help.</p>

<p>Thirdly, I gathered from my talks with many adcom officers that they'd like to see math all the way through high school at least through the pre-calc. level. There could be exceptions, I guess...</p>

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<p>Interesting. My younger daughter is having the same complaints about Pre-Cal (she is also a sophmore who was grade advanced in math in 6th grade). Since there is no PreCal on the PSAT and she did alright in Algebra, my guess is that she did not master Geometry and may have problems with visualization. Get a geometry workbook and test this out. My older daughter, who aced all math classes until PreCal, and then again in Calculus, is reteaching lil' D geometry. She also said that PreCal is harder than Calc.</p>

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<p>What does her tutor say about the situation?</p>

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<p>There are probably four different questions that you ought to be asking here. They are related to some extent, but also deserve separate consideration:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What is right for your daughter educationally? That is the most important one, I think. And maybe the toughest to figure out. But if you haven't, you ought to devote some attention to it. Testing could be a good idea.</p></li>
<li><p>What does she need to graduate from high school? I've never heard of a school system or state education department that would let a student graduate from high school with one year of math.</p></li>
<li><p>What does she need to get into college?</p></li>
<li><p>What does she need to make her a good candidate for a super-selective college?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>The answers to 3 and 4 may be significantly different. The answer to 2 and 3 is probably the same. The answer to 1 and 4 is probably the same, too. Not necessarily, but if you have made the right educational choice, she will be able to present it and to defend it proudly, and the results should be self-proving. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, it may be that she is not going to be a strong candidate for Harvard, etc. That's hardly the end of the world. I don't think that's going to happen, by the way. But if she drops math altogether, and she wants to attend a big-name private college, she had better start REALLY excelling in some humanities field.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And she insists that, if she gets through math with a C or better this year, she is not taking any more math -- this will be her 4th year of HS math. But won't it look terrible for college admissions if she doesn't take math Jr or Sr year? (She wants to take a 2nd foreign language instead of math).

[/quote]
My daughter, who is at Barnard, did not take any math in high school beyond algebra II, which she took in her sophomore year. Her junior year she spent the first semester studying abroad in Russia; when she came back they would not allow her to enroll in trig mid year. She did enroll in a trig class at the community college that summer -- but summer math courses go very fast, and she felt overwhelmed and could not keep up, so she dropped the class before the drop deadline. There was no possibility of taking math in the fall -- her schedule was full up with courses she needed to graduate. </p>

<p>Would she be better off if she had taken more math in high school? Undoubtedly -- Barnard requires all its students to take a year of a lab science; my daughter has opted for astronomy and it turns out that the course requires some knowledge of math. But she'll survive.</p>

<p>Did her weak math record hurt her college admissions? On the whole, no -- it may have impacted admissions at one university where she was waitlisted, but she got into her reaches and was accepted to 9 colleges overall. Why? because she "sold" herself to the colleges as a kid with a language focus -- they were looking at her strong language skills, not her weak math skills. (It turns out that math is also needed for linguistics -- who knew? -- but on the whole it is very possible to get through college without studying advanced math). </p>

<p>I think you should focus on what your daughter needs and wants rather than what looks good for colleges. Math is not her thing. She's probably not going to apply to MIT for college, either. She will present to colleges with a lopsided profile and will be able to get accepted to many LACs or universities with more holistic admissions standards, and there may be some surprises along the way depending where her language studies get her.</p>

<p>I think its far more important to have her work with a tutor to figure out where her gaps are so that she can bring up those test scores -- and if taking statistics or computer programming fits her learning style better, let her go in that direction.</p>

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<p>Can you find out if there's a psychologist in your community who could be recommended by your M.D., someone capable of running the diagnostic tests for
ADHD or something medical. During these tests, if he also runs an IQ test, he might be able to identify a significant (20 point, I think) gap in skills or subtasks on the IQ test, that would demonstrate a Learning Disability in areas relevant to Math. It could be some combination of ADD and and LD.</p>

<p>I need another poster to jump in who really understands the tests you need to ask for. I just was looking to end-run the above poster's concern that testing could be expensive. I thought perhaps this could be covered by medical insurance if you get the testing psychologist referral through your family Medical Doctor.</p>

<p>You may still have to face all the issues of which math courses to take, which colleges to apply..but if she's struggling against an LD, or might even be helped with an ADD medication, it would reassure her it's not because she's not trying hard enough. </p>

<p>I find the tutors are the last to perceive this. They know how to assign and re-assign, but if there's an underlying obstacle in how information is processed mentally, both your D and the tutor might be knocking their heads against a brick wall. Very disheartening for D.</p>

<p>Look for colleges that do not require SAT-II's in Maths but give you some kind of choice. You can also seek out colleges with an open curriculum, or alternative kinds of math courses to satisfy distribution requirements. Many colleges have remedial math classes for those who can't test in to their "101" Math course, so if she has an AP in a strength area, this will help because she might need to take the one college required math class more than once. Look for Credit/No Entry, or "Pass/Fail" options in the college to take care of the Math distribution course. </p>

<p>Assume Math won't be her thing and emphasize the strength areas. Two of my kids are gappy this way, and we just go for the strengths. Not everyone is all-around. </p>

<p>How close is the tutor coordinating with the h.s. curriculum? Perhaps you can have a 4-way meeting with you, D, teacher and tutor.</p>

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<p>califa,</p>

<p>I doubt you're dealing with a learning disability (possible but seems unlikely to me). After all, you have a child who, in 9th grade, tested almost at the average 11th grade level on the PSAT. (Isn't the <em>average</em> 11th grade math score a 50?) I suspect her foundation in Algebra isn't strong enough. I know a kid who was in that same situation and, even with twice a week tutoring and summer math, was only able to get through Alg II and then struggled with business math at the community college. </p>

<p>I think you need to plug holes. I second the vote for Aleks and would consider either spending the summer taking a math class (not for credit) and/ or taking AP Stats next year.</p>

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<p>There is a saying, that if you are failing Calculus, you must have failed Algebra and Geometry.
I do not think it is wise to stop taking math at this point.
I second ALEKS</a> -- Assessment and Learning, K-12, Higher Education, Automated Tutor, Math</p>

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<p>There was a thread recently about the need for calculus. If a student is not going into science or engineering, why is there such emphasis on higher math? I agree 4 years of math in high school is preferred, but my mathophobic D took Algebra I and II, Geometry and Discrete Math/Statistics as her 4 year math program and was accepted at all the top private Universities she applied to (Arts Major). She's in a top 25 eastern university conservatory program in senior year and has not had to take a single math class. She applies math in studies of patterning and drafting. If math is not your child's thing, then help her find what her thing is and to focus on that. Sometimes brilliant creative talent can be developed (gasp)without higher math.</p>

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<p>The sequence your daughter is in is only for the best math students in my kids' hs - the ones who really picked up concepts rapidly in 7th grade. Is your daughter with all other gifted kids or are there also juniors and seniors in precalc with her? She might just be out of place in that class and getting frustrated? Anyway, verbal ability counts for way more in college applications if she isn't going into sciences...maybe it would be a good idea for her to repeat a year of math if she otherwise has enough credits.</p>

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<p>One of my kids who was math-challenged had better success when he took one math course, in advance, during summer school. This is NOT a solution for everyone, but worth describing if it fits your kid.</p>

<p>S found he did better when Math wasn't sandwiched between 6 other courses each day, and it was his only homework each night. He commented that it covered the equivalent of a week of work in one day (3 hours per day for 10 weeks of summer). He never missed a day and did every inch of homework. He attended class 9-noon, and worked the homework all afternoon (not late at night, tired from a regular h.s. day plus EC's...)In your own district, compare the summer offering against l80 instructional days of regular school.</p>

<p>Everyone else in the summer class excelled in Math, so took it to advance into pre-calc one year sooner. S could handle being behind all these talented summer classmates because he has a strong personal confidence, in general, and soars in other academic subject areas. </p>

<p>The only confidence-buster came on the first day. Teacher called on him and seeing him struggle on a simple basic point, tried to embarrass him. Unphased, S spoke with teacher immediately after class about why he was in this course. Summer teacher phoned previous teacher to verify, and learned he was indeed a diligent struggler. Summer teacher actually apologized privately the next day, and didn't call upon him all summer but would answer a question. The previous teacher remembered S well, having told him in June, "I'll see you in September" meaning...you'll fail the summer class. He didn't, but made a low B. </p>

<p>Obviously this isn't a path for everyone with confidence issues, but it did work for my S, who came up with the idea. So tread carefully and never force this on a kid, but it's another path. </p>

<p>That was his last Math course, and he didn't take pre-calc. </p>

<p>D took pre-calc but struggled mightily, and didn't go on to calculus.</p>

<p>Other S is the more all-around and handled calc fine, took college math courses.</p>

<p>OP -- Had I known of the above suggestions linked by other posters, I'd certainly have investigated those.</p>

<p>Also, the link mentioned above was extremely helpful; I believe it was called "Why Calculus?" and it was begun by JHS. Use the searchword "Calculus" to hunt for it.</p>

<p>Good luck. I know it's no picnic.</p>

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<p>Following up on JHS's point:</p>

<p>If getting into a highly selective college is the goal, it probably doesn't matter which course of action that you take. Your daughter's relative weakness in math will be apparent to any admissions officer. So you might as well go ahead and make the best decision based on purely educational considerations.</p>

<p>For my money (and in this case it is obviously not) my answer would be why have your daughter beat her head against a stone wall. She clearly has some significant strengths, but she is never going to do a job (or a major) that requires real math ability. Might be worth taking a soft math course next year, though; it would ease her workload and might allow her to get a little bit of confidence back.</p>

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<p>My S2 is an average student in most areas and probably below average in math. He took Alg. 1 and Geom. in 9th grade (B's), Alg. 2 (not honors, no trig. ) in 10th grade (B) and Functions and Modeling (not honors, made a C) in 11th grade. He is not taking math as a senior. There was nothing left for him to take. Honors Pre-Cal required Honors Alg2/Trig as a pre-req. Discrete Math required Honors pre-call as a pre-req. So he is mathless and happy.</p>

<p>He has already been accepted to the state u. he wants to attend. He may have to take remedial math class as a freshman but it won't be the end of the world.</p>

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<p>I posted about getting her tested. I have a background in special education - taught learning disabled kids in my first career. One of the main advantages for having her tested by the school is to get permission from College Board for her to have extended time on the SAT - that can help tremendousy for kids that struggle in a certain area and then get nervous and the scores go down the tube. I taught a kid with a mild learning disability that only showed up in math and foreign language. Kids who struggle with math often struggle with languages. This student had a deficit in "working memory." This is the ability to hold pieces of information in your head until they blend into a concept. As you can imagine, math depends on this type of memory. For example, this child, when learning math facts, had to learn 6x4 and 4x6 as separate facts. She couldn't just flip them in her head and see that they were the same. A very bright kid can compensate for this deficit in other areas by re-reading passages, taking notes, reading more slowly, but it is very difficult to compensate in math. That is just one example of something that can be going on that you would never know about without testing. Once you know, there is this "aha" effect and all kinds of things fall into place. This child never needed special ed classes but classroom teachers were made aware of it. It was a bigger problem on the SAT though and, in retrospect, it would have been nice for her to have had extra time.</p>