Testing really hurting the kids(including AP)

Parents Forum
1

<p>My daughter, who is a great student, has been struggling with writing the essays. She used to home school, so I know her writing used to be great. And now, suddenly, after 4 years in the public school, she cannot write. I asked her what happened. She says that when she writes in school, ever since she returned in 8th grade, she either just gets a check mark for participation, or it is a timed 30 minute writing segment to test prep. She did AP English last year and never wrote anything beyond 30 minute timed writing spurts. She is in AP English again this year. AP History even just did 30 minute writing spurts. PreAP classes did the same thing. She has taken all preAP or AP. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, my son had opted to not bother with the AP English courses even though he loved reading and writing. He did take an optional creative writing course. He also liked posting online (I don't necessarily like that he posts online, but I suspect the posting has helped his writing). Now, in college, my son has been writing large papers. He showed me a paper that was more than 14 pages long when I saw him recently. He said he easily could have written more but needed to finish up to turn in. </p>

<p>Back to my daughter, she struggles with writing. It is great when it is in SAT or AP format. Anything beyond that, she cannot do. I am not even sure how to help her with this. I know people who go to top private schools where most graduates go to top top colleges and universities, where the schools do not even offer AP classes. I thought that was odd at first, but now I can see the advantages.</p>

<p>Has anyone else seen this issue? And anyone have any suggestions on how to fix this? Four years of writing nothing but AP or SAT type writings will take a lot of backing up and remediating. I guess I can see why so many colleges are saying students are coming in not knowing how to write.</p>

2

<p>The 30 minute five paragraph essay has unfortunately become the focus for much of high school writing instruction. </p>

<p>Since you know that your daughter is capable of better work, once she has the opportunity to write longer essays (and it is almost dead certain that she will once she gets to college), chances are her abilities will recover themselves.</p>

<p>Hang in there.</p>

3

<p>Yes, I think this is a huge problem in our schools. I’ve asked every English and history teacher from grades 6-12, what kind of writing do the kids do? Answers: Grade 6: We’re going to focus on the 5 paragraph essay this year. Grade 10: I wish we could write papers, but the kids aren’t ready to write papers–first they need to learn how to write a 5 paragraph essay. Grade 12: There just isn’t any time to write papers and I have too many students to grade them. Besides, we need to focus on the 5 paragraph essay.</p>

<p>Don’t colleges still require term papers? Aren’t the kids floundering when they’re asked to do such a big project with no preparation?</p>

<p>There are a few high school programs, such as National History day, which offer the opportunity to do some real writing. I don’t think most schools will offer your child much assistance with that though.</p>

4

<p>Having done both home & public school my suggestion is to hire a good writing tutor, but also to talk with the school. I’ve found that my kids who switch to public school don’t always give me the total facts. In our school, some of the writing is test prep & just checked off, but some of it is graded. Much of the test prep writing is graded the same way it will be on the test. What I have found is that I have to continue to check to see if my kids are learning in the public schools even if it’s not as often as I did when they were at home.</p>

<p>It doesn’t have to take forever to fix this, but it will take effort. I will also say that many colleges are familiar with the failings of public schools & require all incoming freshman to take a college writing class.</p>

<p>I should add that our public school does a better job of teaching writing in the honours classes than in regular ones, but that English & history teachers here have 90-96 students per semester and cannot put the time into individual writing mentoring that at least some of them would like to do. I had my eldest go to a homeschool writing tutor (excellent teacher-some of hers have placed in the top 3 of the Ayn Rand essay contests, etc) to help her with her college application essays (not to write them for her, but to teach her how) and my middle one went last summer after grade 9, albeit reluctantly.</p>

<p>My eighth grader is doing public school part time for the first time this year, but since he has always hated writing, is taking writing with this same tutor. He could do a group class, which is what my middle one did (and how we met this teacher), but he really requires one on one teaching and I prefer to outsource writing as they get older anyway.</p>

<p>I’m not sure which state or school distict you’re in, but it varies greatly.</p>

5

<p>The problem is not with AP courses, the problem is with school systems that focus only on standardized test scores. D, who went to Catholic school, took 6 AP courses, including both AP English courses and US History. Yes, they did lots of practice AP timed writing tests, and lots of practice timed SAT essays, but they did so much more. She had to turn in a number of 5-7 page papers, plus do a senior career project that included several research papers. She learned to write papers in both MLA (for English) and Chicago (for History) styles. And she entered college with 21 credits, able to skip many entry-level courses (and is writing many lengthy papers in college). AP courses can be highly beneficial when done right.</p>

<p>Why not look for local writing competitions for her to enter? That might help spark her interest. Or give her prompts and have her write essays for you? You could both write on prompts and critique each other’s work. If her school system isn’t giving her what she needs, it’s time to get creative.</p>

6

<p>State testing tends to favor the 5 paragraph essay. College Board tests don’t. The 5 paragraph essay is a primitive way to write. I wrote our school about this at one point, with little result. My kids continued to write in their own style regardless, mainly because, I’m afraid, they had so little respect for their school.</p>

7

<p>As long as high schools are required to prepare kids to pass state tests in order to graduate, they’re going to teach kids to write for the tests. Sadly, writing the school doesn’t seem to help much. Our state testing has the kids write a one sentence opening paragraph–that’s not even a paragraph!!! At least if they pass they’re done in their sophomore year & at least they’re taught more in all but the applied English classes.</p>

8

<p>Just wanted to clarify, when I said that the 5 paragraph essay is nearly all that is happening in our schools, and that the kids are never asked to write long papers, I wasn’t talking about the regular classes. I was talking about the honors and AP classes–AP World, APUSH, AP Gov and the two AP Englishes. At this level, it isn’t about state tests. It’s about the college board. </p>

<p>I think it’s also about teacher expectations as to how much they are going to work. As a student, I was never asked to grade another student’s work, but this happens quite often in our schools, and then the teacher never even looks at it. When I went to high school, we took tests and wrote papers and the teachers were expected to grade them. And they did. I’m not sure when it became OK to say, I don’t have time to grade papers so I’m not going to assign them.</p>

9

<p>Well, I’m thankful that our school still believes in research papers. My kids wrote at least one sometimes more each semester for APUSH, APEuro, APWorld, and AP Econ. They wrote longer things for English too - though not research papers. They also wrote their fair share of document based essays and the like that were specifically exam prep.</p>

10

<p>I was ready to jump on board and criticize testing, but then realized how lucky we have it at our big public school compared to what has been described. In tenth and twelfth grades kids are required to write long term papers. The first paper my son wrote in twelfth grade had college caliber expectations. </p>

<p>I think of our public school as good but not great, areas of excellence, but also some of mediocrity. I don’t think they read enough literature, and looking back over the years, no, they don’t write enough either, but it could be worse.</p>

11

<p>Our kid’s high school was similar to Mathmom’s. Kids wrote at least one very significant research paper each year, and a number of smaller (but more than 5 paragraph) papers as well. Writing was a huge component of all of their classes.</p>

12

<p>Every one of my english/social studies AP classes required term papers. I distinctly remember my 30+ page term paper in AP English and how much I hated it (and how thankful I was later on for having to do it). I honestly don’t remember having to do a 5 paragraph essay past like 9th grade English. </p>

<p>Does she not have any advanced composition classes at her school? </p>

<p>I’m sorry that this has been her experience.</p>

13

<p>I;m a professional writer. I homeschooled two kids (they are now 25 and 23), both with graduate degrees, one completing a dual Ph.D. Both fantastic writers. We didn’t require ANY writing til they really had something they wanted to write about (other than thank you notes.) They never took a state test. Neither I nor they had ever heard of five-paragraph essays in our lives til about six years ago. </p>

<p>To which we said, “oh”.</p>

14

<p>My kids wrote term papers. And, a parent friend bemoaned that her D didn’t. Same school, same classes. </p>

<p>I agree the format of writing in hs can be damaging. I work with a lot of bright kids who have no idea of their writing strengths because they are crammed into the little mold of thesis statements and proofs, with tight wraps that make some point. They get to the college app essay and want to throw in position statements, quotes and all the pieces that work for hs teachers.</p>

<p>BUT, I also see that the sort of hs practice I’ve seen has its own purpose. It teaches one sort of quick, defensive writing, with references, which does have its place. </p>

<p>In hs they are also writing for teachers who know them. Adcoms, otoh, are complete strangers with the admit power in their hands. That creates amazing tension. For some, defeats any confidence the kid does have.</p>

<p>Sometimes it helps a kid to write as if recounting something in a letter to a trusted older friend. They lose that urge to impress, can get past the formulas they’re held to in class, but can get the tale out- and the needed enthusiasm. Just my thoughts.</p>

15

<p>OP, your daughter has been in the public schools for FOUR years. If she has a writing issue, it just didn’t crop up this year as a high school senior. Also, you felt confident with the writing instruction you gave her when you homeschooled. Perhaps you can supplement her writing instruction, if she is amenable to that. </p>

<p>A freshman writing course is required at most colleges these days. Schools want to be sure kids can do the requisite writing for college work. And many, if not most schools have writing centers where students who are having difficulty can get assistance.</p>

16

<p>I teach freshman comp. Most of my students come to college unable to write real essays/papers because of the standardized test prep. We spend that first semester knocking the 5 paragraph, 3 reasons formula out of them.</p>

<p>I find it continually astounding that we have designed a “college readiness” program that renders them unready for college.</p>

<p>Good news is, she’s not the only one. Her instructors won’t be surprised when she gets to college–we’re used to it.</p>

17

<p>Fundamentally the problem is that we don’t give English teachers enough time to give students meaningful feedback on their writing. A typical high school English teacher sees 150 (5 periods of 30 students) students per week. Five minutes of writing feedback per student per week comes to 12.5 hours, and five minutes isn’t a lot to give substantive feedback on writing. It also doesn’t include time for lesson planning and all of the other responsibilities teachers have.</p>

<p>If we really wanted good writing instruction, we’d figure out how to give English teachers a break on the course load so that they HAD more time for working with students on writing. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, virtually every union contract I’ve seen fails to differentiate between subjects, and the English teacher is expected to teach the same number of periods as the PE teacher. Often the PE teacher ends up getting paid more, because coaching is an extra-duty assignment that has a stipend. How many PE teachers bring home a stack of essays to grade?</p>

18

<p>^My H, who teaches bio and spends very long hours setting up labs, grading labs, and tutoring after school, says the same thing.</p>

<p>I see, as a comp instructor, 4 classes of 18/19 students each semester, so about 130/140 students a year. Not as many, granted. But they write about 5 essays each in a semester, 3-7 pages depending on assignment, three drafts of each. I give feedback on almost all of those drafts. So even if the HS teachers did a couple longer essays, in draft/draft/final form, a year, the students would be far better off. (I make far less than a beginning HS teacher. This is not a cut on teachers. like I said, I’m married to one and they’re underpaid. But it’s still important to do the job. I do believe that in the end, though, the teachers are teaching what they’re told to, and therein lies the problem.)</p>

19

<p>I grew up in OH, and everyone wrote at least 1 term paper to graduate. My kids grew up in IL, and they all had to write at least 1 term paper to graduate. My kids also all took AP English classes, and I never heard a word about “5 para writing problems” </p>

<p>Bottom line, I don’t think the OP’s problem can be blamed on AP classes. IMHO it should be blamed on what the state teaching / learning standards are. It doesn’t seem right that kids can graduate HS without writing a term paper! </p>

<p>One of my kids absolutely hated his English writing teacher /classwork - but is thankful now, and he realizes now how helpful the class was. OP - Since you home schooled your kids - assign a term paper and follow up. Make sure it’s the best they can do. And yes, I told all my kids the following story: </p>

<p>"When Henry Kissinger became President Nixon’s National Security Adviser in 1969, he brought a reputation as a demanding taskmaster. So, when a staffer was given an assignment to write a position paper for his new boss, he understandably put in extra hours and took great pains to produce top-notch work. A day after he had turned it in, Kissinger called him into his office and asked him, “Is this the best you can do?”</p>

<p>The staffer promised he could improve it, and went back to his desk. He cancelled his other appointments, called his wife to tell her he would be home very late, and worked feverishly on the report: fine-tuning it, adding information, clarifying where necessary, etc. At the end of the week, he turned it in. On Monday morning, Kissinger passed by and contemptuously dropped the report on his desk. In a loud voice, he again asked, “Is this the best you can do?”</p>

<p>Stunned and not a little frustrated, the staffer vowed to do even better, and redoubled his efforts from the previous week, putting even longer hours and finding even better ways to express and support his position. Two days later, convinced that it was as close to perfect as he could get it, he turned it in again. The next day, Kissinger again asked, “Is this really the best you can do?” The young man had had enough, so he looked at Kissinger squarely and said, “Yes, that is the best I can do.”</p>

<p>Kissinger replied, “Good. Now I will read it.”</p>

20

<p>I think you should complain to the principal! My kids all attended public high school and at the very least had a very big research project each year ( that also involved a presentation). Each year focused on a particular theme (famous leader, famous author, etc…). The senior research paper is a minimum of 10 pages (for everyone whether AP or not). I do know the teachers are payed an extra stipend to grade all those research papers and that there is a teacher who has an entire period to just oversee the senior paper (check deadlines, rough drafts, resources, rewrites, etc.). The students must pass in order to walk at graduation (of course the students are held accountable for the writing at their senior English class level).</p>

<p>You could also try going to the school board. I’m sure if the school board agreed to pay a stipend, those English teachers would assign and grade the work.</p>