Texas All State

Stikstylesix · February 7, 2010, 2:41am

Hey there users of college confidential. Does anybody out there know about how much the "average scholorship rate" is for people who have made the Texas All-State Choir. I have heard people from all over the nation say that any Texas All-State Organization is the best of its kind in the nation(for high school students). I was wondering if anyone out there knew about it or how much money for college an All-Stater could get. I am a two year All-Stater at this point :)

violadad · February 7, 2010, 8:55am

That’s odd because I’ve heard the same said for NY, or California. :D

All kidding aside, I doubt that All-State selection anywhere is going to get an applicant an automatic scholarship allocation for college. In CT there was a summer program under the auspices of a state college that automatically granted a 25% reduction in costs to All-State participants, but I’ve never heard of any thing similar.

Now there may may be parameters within the Texas public higher education system that allow for an instate student choosing a Texas public college or university to be allocated a sum for All-state participation but you would have to do your research.

The allocation of scholarship monies is really institution specific and may include awards for grades, stats, academic achievement like Presidential Arts scholars, other nationally recognized academic competitions, and each state may have their own scholarship offerings based on specific criteria for instate residents. One of the best places to look is your state’s Dept of Higher Education website.

Talent based awards are typically the result of placement within the auditioning applicant pool.

You can’t assume an “average” scholarship rate", as the criteria are institution specific and are often a muddied combination of academic, talent, and need based aid based on widely varying policies.

Some of these might give you an idea of ranges, nothing more:

Singersmom07 · February 7, 2010, 8:57am

Welcome stikstylesix
Are you planning to be a music vocal performance major? If you are, then it is the audition that will get you scholarship money, not the resume. Although this is not written by a voice major it is a good place to start reading about the process.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/258796-so-you-want-music-major-one-familys-experience.html</a>

Tell us a little more about yuorself and we may be able to help more. What year are you now? Are you taking voice lessons with a private teacher? What do youu want to do?

don9992 · February 7, 2010, 9:12am

Honestly, Stikstylesix, in a music school that’s tightly affiliated with a college or university, your audition and your academic performance are what gets you scholarship money. In the conservatories, if you have decent grades, it’s all about the audition.

The fact is that nearly all of the people you’re up against have been in whatever honors choirs are available to them. Everybody’s good. While the honors chorus is an ego stroke and usually a great musical experience, your energy and money would be better invested in a good private teacher if you want something that will get you into a good music school.

thumper1 · February 7, 2010, 12:06pm

When your high school musician gets to college (or to a summer music program) they will discover that almost EVERYONE was in All State and almost everyone was the top in their section on their instrument.

There are tons of competitive instrumentalists in CT…many in All State and some who do not do it due to other time commitments. I seriously doubt that All State will be a deal breaker for college scholarships.

Musicmanjdb · February 9, 2010, 5:20pm

Auditions count for about 99.9% of what you receive. The other .01% can up you a few cents based on your “resume.”

Over ten honor choirs participated in here, national, regional, and at area colleges. It looks good on paper, but it doesn’t help you much in the $$$ category. However, the experiences themselves are worth it, and ensemble work and learning new repertoire is helpful in almost any situation.

musicprnt · February 10, 2010, 11:08am

I think what others have written is right on the mark, that scholarships from what I can tell are based on how well you do in the audition and that is it, you could be Texas all state and get very little, or you could be someone who studied with a private teacher, never did all state, and do well.

My real reason for posting is to do a little reality check, as others have done. One of the hardest things is going to be facing the realities of music if you choose to go into it, number one being that no matter how good someone thinks they are, there are going to be a lot out there who are as good and likely even better then you think or know you are. I have to be honest, I think groups like all state and such, while fine, also tend to be in my experience not necessarily a good judge of how good someone really is, compared to the whole music world. I am sure others may have different opinions/experience, don’t take my statement as gospel, but in my direct experience in the instrumental world is that many of the really top level instrument students don’t go the all state route, because in their focus on music they don’t have the time (plus if they go to prep programs the rehearsals and performances would probably conflict with those). I am not knocking all state programs, not in the least bit, and in a state the size of texas I am sure the competition must be pretty hard, I am simply saying don’t base your view of things on that or any particular group or groups.

Even people who know more then a little about music, having seen talented kids and such through a variety of means, are often shocked when they hit the top levels of music, when they start seeing what the real competition is. Before my son first started working with his current teacher and trying to audition for the pre college program he is in, he had played for a lot of people, more then a few of them experienced musicians and teachers, and they were shocked that he didn’t get in on his first few attempts, and some of these people had adjudicated for all state and so forth…it is a very different world is all I can say.

sagiter · February 10, 2010, 11:55am

Funny you mentioned NY All-State, we are on Long Island and politics (who you know and who hands you off to the adjudicator) can play a huge role in All State acceptances down here. In NYS All State acceptances are done regionally meaning each region gets a quota of each type of instrument from each region so the idea that they take only the best in the state is a fallacy.

musicprnt · February 10, 2010, 12:39pm

Sagiter-

I am glad you wrote that, cause then you will catch the flack lol. My take on any process that involves human beings is that they are fraught with things not ideal, that on auditions and admissions there can be other factors that can come into play, including nepotism, and the reverse of that, blackballing. Though many of these events are supposed to be blind, audition results only processes, other things creep into any process that i have seen in a variety of areas, so that wouldn’t surprise me.

sagiter · February 10, 2010, 2:41pm

They are far from blind in NY as you are allowed to have someone in the room with you when you play including your private teacher or parent. I don’t know what kind of “flack” there is to catch for what I wrote, no one as involved with music as we parents are have not seen politics invade the process, if they haven’t, they’re not watching. This is why the audition and only the audition should be and seems to be the primary component of the college music admissions process.

thumper1 · February 10, 2010, 2:47pm

Interesting All state processes in NY. In CT…if the adjucator KNOWS the student, the student gets switched to a different adjudicator. For All State, I believe there are two adjudicators in each room…not just one. I do not know about regional festival auditions.

In CT, students audition first for their regional festival. Students ACCEPTED to the regional festivals are then permitted to audition for All State. No exceptions. One year, DD’s regional score was HIGHER than all of the other regions’ players on her instrument. They were permitted to audition for all state, but she was not.

I have to say…we didn’t really see “politics” in the system here…perhaps Violadad can give his perspective.

sagiter · February 10, 2010, 3:23pm

Good for CT. Here in NY, local school music teachers can march their kids into the adjudicators lounge to “deliver cofee” and then sit for their adjudication.

All State is what it is and from what I’ve seen it doesn’t help or hinder your getting into college. I can’t imagine it has anything to do with the scholarship process.

thumper1 · February 10, 2010, 4:26pm

My kids viewed All State as an opportunity to play with different conductors. Also, our school has a band, no orchestra…and they both played in the All State Orchestras. They felt it was an opportunity to spend a weekend doing something they loved…music. BUT truthfully, in the big scheme of things…they got a lot more out of their Youth Orchestra experience which was every week.

Neither kiddo felt that All State “padded” their music resume at all.

musicprnt · February 10, 2010, 4:32pm

Sagiter-
I was writing that half in jest, but there have been times on here when people have questioned things like college auditions being totally objective and the like, when there is any hint that other then sheer talent gets someone into a place and so forth. From what I remember about NJ all state back in the dark ages (not as a participant, but volunteer when my school hosted it) the kids auditioned in front of a couple of adjudicators. From what I remember, the kids got a score and those with the highest scores got in…

That said, any process, even that one, could be gamed. For example, if teachers of certain students wanted them in all st, and a friend of theirs was the conductor or part of the admissions process, in theory they could make sure that whatever the kid got as a score, they got in (and again, I am not saying that happens, this is all hypothetical). It depends on who looks at the results and tallies them, of course. If the people who take the sheets to figure out who has the best scores don’t know who the kids are, and simply say “125 had the highest score among clarinets, etc” then it would be pretty hard to game. But if the people doing the figuring are for example the conductor of the program and assistants (if any), and they knew the names with the numbers, who would know if they said “oh, Ted Jones got in”, when his score might have not put him in the running…
Those are hypetheticals. I also have heard complaints that the adjudicators are high school music teachers, who can end up judging instruments they aren’t so familiar with, so for example they may downrate a violinist who is playing at a very high level while giving a good score to someone playing relatively mediocre, because they don’t know the instrument that well shrug.

As others have written about, the college style audition processes are probably not totally fair, either, because of the fact that someone has to want to teach an incoming student, and it is pretty easy for a teacher to ‘reserve’ open slots for kids they know are auditioning and wait until one of ‘their’ students is on the list, and take them, even if 10 kids ranked higher…I would be shocked personally if some percentage of admissions didn’t bypass some of the structure of the audition in one way or the other, given that they are not blind auditions where the top X scorers get in. Human processes tend to bring in human faults and frailty, too.

As far as all state counting on admissions to a conservatory/music school, I would tend to doubt that it has any influence either. Probably would have more meaning as an ex curricular activity applying to a college as a non music major…

violadad · February 10, 2010, 9:32pm

thumper1, I remember the process as being fairly straightforward, and devoid of politics. There were a few adjudicators known to be “tough”, and the serious kids knew that if they got one of THEM, they knew they had to have the audition rep nailed. Good lesson to be learned for any serious musician. Son had no complaints about section players not being able to hold their own during rehearsals.

I think you’re right about 2 adjudicators, it may even be three. He’s been on both sides, both as an auditioner and as an adjudicator. I have a memory of him having to do a training or certification to receive adjudicator status, but I’d have to ask him for confirmation.

thumper1 · February 10, 2010, 9:39pm

Yes the All State adjudicators do receive a training. They listen to students (several) and “practice” using the adjudication form which rates a number of different areas of the audition. The trainers want to be sure that folks are judging similarly from one room to another. I believe one of my kids was one of the “training” kids one year.

BeezMom · February 11, 2010, 1:12pm

Currently, in NJ, the auditions are blind, with three adjudicators for each section. The kids are listed by number, not by name, and a maximum of 45 are accepted to each section. The kids are told that if they even speak with an adjudicator they will be disqualified. 
Even with that, there’s a human factor (why did x get all 1’s from two of the judges, but 3’s from the third) but it seems to balance out pretty well in the end. 
On the other hand, I’m not sure how much it even makes the collegiate radar screen, because 2 of the state schools had their music open house days on the dates the All State kids were required to be in Atlantic City. Go figure.

slovesviola · February 11, 2010, 2:24pm

All State in Florida

As a parent who has been a strong supporter of strings education in our schools here in Florida I can agree with all that has been said about the All State process. However, All State auditions, at least for strings, are done differently here than what has been mentioned for other states.

All State is available for students in middle school and high school. The kids sign up to participate and go to the audition at their designated time at a location designated by their district. Since we are a big state we are divided in to many districts. Music teachers in the district take turns participating in the preliminary audition process.

Students are called in by name and they play the required excerpts. No solo pieces are heard, just a required study on that instrument and 1 orchestral excerpt. They may or may not know the teacher present in the room. Their audition is recorded, they have finally advanced to CD’s rather than cassette tape. They may or may not have a conversation with the teacher and this teacher is not the adjudicator. At a later date all the audition recordings are reviewed by a panel of several teachers from all over the state and the finalists are selected by this process. This panel, which changes each year, sits in a room and listens to all of the recordings on that instrument until they have heard them all. Any student who wants to audition may participate so this is a lengthy process. Imagine sitting in a room for 2 entire days and evenings listening to violin recordings of the same study and orchestral excerpt over and over again. The adjudicators do not enjoy this process. They get tired and punchy and I imagine after awhile it all blends together.

For each level orchestra they select the finalists, and depending on the pieces that the conductor chooses, that is the final number of students selected. (Smaller or larger brass sections, the highest ranking non string students place in orchestra, the rest go to band. Jazz band is pretty small, 1 guitarist, 1 bassist).

Middle school has a string orchestra, 9-10th grade has a full orchestra, and 11- 12th grade has a full orchestra that plays complete scores of high level music. One year the senior orchestra played the Planets (3 mvmts), another year they played Til Eulienspiegel (what was that conductor thinking?)

In 11th grade they made an error on my son’s CD, it was mislabeled. They thought he was playing violin but he was auditioning on viola. So while they were waiting for a new CD he chatted it up with the teacher doing the recording, not one of his teachers but one that was very interested in his future plans. The teachers are usually very encouraging to the students to try to help them relax, some are very nervous since this is their first experience in this type of audition (although in many of these schools the students have to audition for admission to their middle and high school string programs).

I get the feeling from comments made by some of the teachers that the selection process is not totally blind. Although the names are not on the CD’s, the top level students are pretty well known in the state since the music teachers form a very tight knit community. The same students seem to get accepted to All State even though there are many talented students in the state.

Since Florida does not have any highly competitive pre college programs like in some large metropolitan cities, All State is THE BIG opportunity for students. It is a great program that allows participants to meet other musicians who have the same passion for music, reinforcing their love for playing. It is definitely a great experience, and possibly the only one where they get to experience a guest conductor other than their school conductor.

This is not a reality check, however, and students do not really get a flavor of the real world until they go to summer music programs or even college auditions. Many of the top students do not participate in All State for various reasons, one big one being that it conflicts with NFAA finals. I know of one orchestra director who does not make the NFAA information available to his students because they want their students to participate in All State. These students must have their own resources to educate themselves about other opportunities available to them, they will not get it from their school music teacher.

As others have said, merit money is very individual depending on the school and the specific instrument. The audition is the most important factor. Some are more generous across the board, others have little money to offer. All students applying at a higher level have participated in an All State or similar type program, so although the experience is beneficial and should definitely be included on the resume, it is just one piece of the puzzle.

Another thing to investigate is that some schools state on their audition page that you must audition live at the school to be considered for merit awards. I don’t know if this is as true this year given the state of the economy, but last year it was a policy of many of the schools.

anne1244 · February 11, 2010, 5:24pm

I am no authority, but I have to weigh in on behalf of Texas All-State Choir. I have been told by music educators, including college profs from out of state, that Texas All-State is perhaps the most competitive in the nation. Unlike many states that have only two rounds of competition, All-State in Texas requires District, Region, pre-Area and Area competitions before making All State. Supposedly, if you make the All-State mixed choir as a soprano, you have effectively surpassed 10,000 other sopranos across the state. To avoid the human element described above, the kids only have numbers and stand behind a screen during all the auditions. You can’t even see their shoes! Past conductors have included Anton Armstrong and even Robert Shaw.

Having said all of that, there is a huge difference to me between being an excellent choral singer and a soloist. Choral singing is all about blend, while solo singing implies uniqueness.

cartera45 · February 11, 2010, 5:28pm

I think that is a key point. Being involved in choral music is great for sight singing skills, but can actually be a negative depending on the quality of the training. Many of the best singers in this area don’t take chorus at school because it conflicts with private lessons and solo work.

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