Yeah. I was talking about this stuff earlier today with my grad student, who’s temporarily fried by the number of new things he’s thinking about and trying to integrate along with everything going on in the world and his life. And I said look, take a step back (and a step forward), and look at why it’s like this. When I was born there were about 3.5 billion people on the planet and we couldn’t see or hear each other. There was a handful of outlets that’d tell most people what there was to think about and how to think about them. Now, and I’m not quite old yet, there’s nearly 8 billion people, billions are talking to billions, authority has crumbled substantially, there’s a relatively vast number of young people who haven’t been alive long enough to have much perspective about what kind of change is possible and how people go, there’s a smaller but still giant number of old people who still have the 20th c in their eyes, and what we talk about today is ancient history in three months, everyone’s forgotten. Oh, and there’s these guys trying to collect fabulous wealth off everyone else, moving so fast they’re a blur, and everyone needs everything. It’s a wonder we haven’t all murdered each other. Of course we’re grappling with these enormous complexities that seem to have sprung up out of nowhere: that’s what there is to do! We’re figuring out how to live in this world as it itself is changing fast, partly because we’re changing it fast, and even the ways we used to work together won’t serve so well now.
In other words, I said, it’s not you, it’s the moment. Take a break, go for a run, chill, the world will still be here with all its problems when you get back, we’ll manage.
@Mwfan1921 There is a first transition point to Gymnasium (college prep track school) in 5th grade, in some states in 7th grade. Admission requirement is a B- average in the core subjects. Some states require an additional teacher recommendation, all but one state offer parental override.
There are transition points in 8th grade, 9th grade and 10th grade into shorter college prep tracks, with options to add vocational subjects and drop academic subjects, however this may reduce your choice of majors in university. (At this point, students on vocational tracks tend to have a good idea of what they’re good at and what they want to specialise in and what they are happy to drop forever and if not, they can always choose the general college prep track).
Universities don’t care. At all. They look at your final GPA and that’s it. And employers LOVE the kids who worked their way through the vocational route, preferably if they have learned a trade in the meantime and have added a related degree after. 50% of kids who end up in university have taken the vocational route. It’s not even rare.
So what’s the problem?
College prep track from fifth grade is the most prestigious. That’s the parental agonising. And kids don’t like that a friend may go to a different school, and of course some kids suffer from tremendous parental pressure to make it into and stay in the prestigious track. Attrition is up to 50% until graduation at 18 or 19 - after all, an admission requirement of a B- average in elementary school isn’t that onerous, but kids who have to work hard for their Bs in elementary school have to work hard to not fail out from college prep track, and by puberty, parental pressure can only do so much.
I think that is a healthy attitude. I’ve been on CC since 2012. These types of posts have been a mainstay of the CC forum since then and I’m quite sure from it’s inception. The biggest thing I’ve seen change is the increase in the number of students applying to very selective schools (thus making them more selective) and the increase in students and parents complaining about transparency. If you are an excellent student then by all means apply where you choose but understand that if you aren’t accepted it’s not personal, it’s not that you have failed it’s only that you will take another path to pursue your future goals. If parents, peers or the students themselves feel the only way to be successful is to get accepted to some elite university then I don’t see that as healthy.
Thanks! I think it is really important to be realistic with our kids and not to encourage “dream school” thinking - regardless of what school that might be. In reality, most kids would be happy and successful at a variety of schools and if we can encourage that mindset we are less likely to have an extremely disappointed kid at the end of the day. By no means do I discourage kids from shooting for the stars because you never know, but it is good to have a more realistic view of the process so a rejection doesn’t feel so personal.
Hi, OP here. The point of my post wasn’t disappointment at my D’s not getting into some of the schools she applied to. The point is the harrowing gauntlet that college prep and application has become.
Whether or not a student gets in, whether or not it’s reasonable for a student to get in: that’s really not the point. The point is that the process itself is abusive – even for students who aren’t aiming for top schools. And I think there are a lot of parents here who’ve been so successfully Stockholm-syndromed about it that there’s much less protest about this than there should be.
To short-circuit the “well don’t apply to top schools, then”:
It’s not about students applying to top schools.
It’s about all students who are applying to college and do not have enough money that the easiest-in, a nonselective state university, is a shruggable matter.
If you’re applying to top schools, you go through it.
If you have to shop around hard for fin aid, you go through it.
Take a sec and think about how many people that is, and how many families have $100K+ on the shelf for even low-cost in-state rates at state universities.
Wrench your eyes away from your own kids and account balances for a sec, and recognize how many families this affects at this point.
I don’t think the blame should solely lie with the process but rather be shared with parents’ lack of willingness to do the research and reluctance to communicate financial constraints with their college-bound children.
It’s great if you’re blessed with top-notch high school counselors who have the time to dedicate the necessary personal attention to your child (amid the 100+ on their list) but that’s not the norm. Parents need to approach the college selection and application process knowing that they will need to do the lion’s share of the research and guidance for their child. This involves doing a sometimes painful reality check on your child’s stats and how their numbers stack up against their classmates and other applicants around the world. Once they’ve come to terms with the fact that their child isn’t a likely for HYPSM or other T20’s (or maybe even T100’s), they need to have that conversation with their child and develop a “real” list of schools.
Secondly, having a frank discussion early on in the process about finances cannot be stressed enough. Give them a number, show them how that number factors into costs in-state vs. out-of-state vs. private. Do the research and don’t let them get hooked on colleges that are notoriously stingy with merit (even if their stats indicate likely admission). There’s no “secret scholarship” that your 50th percentile child is going to be offered. Also realize that financial aid, while helpful to many, often includes loans, which will have to be paid back. College selection shouldn’t be a financial “yolo”. There are a variety of ways to approach a college degree that don’t have to involve bankrupting the family.
I truly believe that if parents do some research and set realistic parameters, the process shouldn’t be that painful. Getting caught up in the trope of “elite or bust” is where people start to get into trouble.
Can we expect all parents, or the majority of parents, to be able to navigate this process on their own? The admission process here in the US is so convoluted and multifaceted that I don’t think we can even remotely expect this. The well-off can delegate it to highly resourced private HS counselors or hire their own private college counselors. The well educated may be able to accomplish much of it on their own if they have the resources (both time and money). However, we cannot expect the majority, or even the plurality, of parents in this country to be able to navigate this process, IMO. Just look at how confused some parents are on CC, let alone the vast majority who have never heard of CC.
The US college admission process is the most unequal in the world. And yet, many parents here on CC defend this process, often in the name of equity. I’m speaking as someone who successfully navigated this process and whose kid wasn’t stressed at all by the process, but I know I’m not in the majority.
Not all, certainly, but I do think the majority of parents who frequent various social media, who use a computer on a daily basis, who google the best price of an item, who online bank, who buy things on Amazon, who sell things on ebay - they can enter a phrase into a search engine and at least attempt to find useful information. I don’t believe a high level of education is needed to initiate a search. Just judging by vast inquiries here and on other social media platforms - I do think the majority of parents have the ability to gather information. The information can be misleading and confusing, which should lead to more searching and inquiring on sites like this one (which I also count as research) as well as following-up with counselors and peers.
Many people look for a quick, one-size-fits-all answer, and that is often an impossible ask. In my experience, having navigated two children through the process, it can be as daunting as we want to make it. There are plenty of colleges that a very open about their process and others that are vague. Applying to 15 colleges with vague (holistic?) admissions processes can be “nuts” (to use the OP’s word), for sure. As parents, we have the final authority over the level of anxiety we allow our kids to take on.
I don’t think the US college admission process is comparable to online shopping or something similar. If these parents can figure out their medical bills (another convoluted and opaque process), maybe they have a chance. If a kid is only looking at his/her in-state public or a community college, and his/her family can afford it, I’d agree with you that the process is simpler. However, most kids have aspirations (we do want to encourage them, don’t we?). The opacity of the process and the promise of “meeting needs” at some of these colleges makes them believe they have a shot at their dreams. Who can blame them?
Most students already attend an in-state or community college and many of them have aspirations. Many of those students can and will achieve their goals from those paths.
As I think we agree, US students are limited to where they can attend college by parental finances and/or parent willingness to pay. Further, if a family can’t afford (or won’t pay) their EFC (which is a not-insignificant proportion of families), the meet full need schools that don’t offer merit aid are off the table.
I do agree that financing a college education is the biggest hurdle for most families. It further complicates the process. We’ve seen on CC how many families with HS-age kids don’t even know about colleges’ NPCs, and they are the ones who managed to come across CC! I just don’t think we can assume the majority of parents can navigate this process on their own.
I don’t know whether or not most parents of students who are going to college can figure out college admissions. I believe that parents who went to college can figure it out.
For first gen students some do have functional HS GCs, plus there are CBOs across the country that help shepherd tens of thousands of students in total thru the process….but the parents/students do have to find those programs.
If every knowledgeable adult on CC worked with just one student via an admissions CBO more kids could be helped. Questbridge and Posse are two national programs that students can seek out as well. With that said I know our system isn’t perfect, but there are things people can do today to make a difference, rather than hope the Queen Mary turns around.
Agree 100%. The biggest impediment to student success is financial, not that they aren’t attending an “elite” school. In many ways the US system offers a lot of opportunity in terms of the number/types of colleges we have - unfortunately, costs have become out of reach for many and truly affordable options are scarce.
By no means do I think the college application process is akin to online shopping, but the ability to find information about colleges, admissions, financial aid & scholarships, certainly is.
Yes, interpreting the results can be confusing but again, we have unprecedented and virtually unlimited access at our fingertips to information, expert advice, peer knowledge, etc. It’s not overwhelming for most people to at least begin to search for information. And it doesn’t have to be limited to an internet search - we are free to talk to friends, other parents at school, neighbors, etc. who have gone through or who are going through the college application process. There are also many books on the subject.
I don’t think anyone will ever have the college process 100% figured out but we can actively seek out available information, talk to others going through it and at least arm ourselves as much possible to assist our kids with having the best possible outcome.
Thinking back to when I applied to college in the early 80’s - my parents had ZERO involvement (and my dad was an educator himself). I made a list based on the available catalogs in the guidance office and which campuses looked pretty on the covers. My guidance counselor stepped in only to advise on which ones matched my grades and SAT scores. I got into five of the six I applied to (only 2 were in-state publics, and one of those was a rejection). My parents declined to pay for a private or out of state school, so I shrugged my shoulders and went to the one in-state school I got into and have miraculously had a happy and productive life.
My husband only applied to two colleges total (both in-state and sight unseen) and chose from one of those. He also can report a happy & productive life.
Somewhere along the way applying to colleges became a high stakes game (sometimes it seems more so for the parents, than the kids) where it’s no longer an accomplishment just to get into any college - but a race to chase rankings, with the perception of future success being tied to a decision made at the age of 18.
In my state, as of a few years ago, 25% had been to college (not necessarily graduated). 7% had some form of post-baccalaureate education.
Of those 25%, most will have been to college in a much less complicated time, which is why we still have so many parents surprised and overwhelmed by the complexity of just filling out the FAFSA, forget investigating the whole landscape and helping the kid figure out what’s best. We still have substantial numbers of parents who believe that college isn’t very important and that if the kid wants to go, the kid will have to sort it on their own.
Over 10% of the US adult population is illiterate. Many of those people are parents.
My ex-husband and his wife both have advanced degrees. Both want their kids to go to college. Neither has prepared financially; neither is willing to do the homework; neither has done anything to help the kids find, apply to, or decide on a university. The situation is frankly delusional when it comes to my kid’s stepsister, a partier who has has significant drug and legal problems and a C average with the help of friends she pays to do her homework: they believe she’ll go to the state flagship on a substantial scholarship.
In my experience here, they’re pretty ordinary. They think about their own college app processes; they’re not inclined to listen to unpleasant and worrying things; they don’t like thinking about money and strive to “live in the present”, and the whole process seems alien and cold to them. They think I’m a total nutjob for having done the sort of prep I’ve done for my kid, and don’t really see much difference between her prep and the stepsister’s. I can guarantee that despite my frequent reiterations of my ex’s decree-given financial responsibility, they will be surprised that it’s real when it comes due, be sure that there’s a way to get out of it, and will believe it’s unfair that they can’t, largely because --well, what about the other kid?
It’s dead normal.
There are also very different college-prep cultures across the country. When I first got here to the middle of the country, I was shocked to find how few parents had prepared to send kids to college. A substantial number were not only entirely on their own, but had fought their parents to go to college. Some were expected to support family while going to college, and to treat college responsibilities as secondary to family responsibilities. That’s all changed somewhat, but is still a substantial and audible strain in our population here.
I want to reiterate here that for most people, it’s not about the rankings. This is an obsession of the American upper middle class, the upper 10-15%. For most people, it’s about being able to afford to go to college. And the difficulty and complexity of application don’t change then, because state universities – which had been the go-to for people with no money – are now an impossible mountain of money from the perspective of a very large proportion Americans. Because private universities are very good at signalling that they can be cheaper than state universities if only the kids ring the bell and win enough aid, kids with no rankings anxiety get drawn into a bewildering process that neither they nor their parents understand, and start chasing that will-o-the-wisp financial aid offered differently and opaquely by every school. The confusion they have there is compounded by the fact that most people are bad at money, which has also grown too complicated for most.
I think a summary of this part of the thread might be: CC-type parents with a lot of education, connection to universities, high SES, competitive nature, and leisure for taking on what’s essentially a minor in college admissions are well able to help their children through the newly madly complex process. Which is more or less the thesis of that Dream Hoarders book. Left out: it’s still bad for us.
Well, on the front end it might be the same. In the back end, as others point out, the implications of that “Ivy” diploma are mostly hype. So the kids who don’t get a degree from “#1” school are not really disadvantaged in the long run. That is not the case in Japan / most Asian countries. If you graduate from #1 school, you will get a job and have a bright future. If you are from low ranked school, you are going to have a tough time of it, and probably going to be stuck, at least for a while, in the “temp” economy. That can happen here in the US too more and more, but usually it’s due to geography and corporate greed / incentives / cost structures, not what you actually get hired based on.
For real, I made a living – it’s still part of my living – because most people are so bad at formulating search terms, even search questions. At a university. It turns out to require some unusual skills. Eventually autopredict came along, but that’s still only marginally helpful: the algorithms can only steer you to things many people are asking, in some broad sense, or to things you’ve already been interested in.
Being overwhelmed is exactly part of the problem. When approaching a new area, most people will blank and give up easily rather than seek help, and they’re not inclined to read anything as long as a CC thread. Review-length info, yes. Otherwise a trusted friend has to lead them in. If the friend is knowledgeable and generous with time, great, but these things tend to collect in high-SES social groups, when it comes to college apps.
Non-elite high school guidance counselors are interested in seeing that the kids go to college, any college. They’re not there to be serious advisors and don’t have time to devote to each kid like that.
There’s a reason why university librarians spend so much time trying to teach research skills.
DW an I are both Ivy grads. Wife wants D26 to go to Ivy. I tell her “read the alumni class update”. There are many many many of our classmates doing “non-profit work”, and basically blogging along side folks who were as far from the Ivies as food is from what comes out the other end.