The Academies’ March Toward Mediocrity - Prof Fleming Op-Ed

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

On “exposure” to USNA, the importance of football is once again overstated in my humble (but informed) opinion. I always ask candidates how they learned about USNA. It has never, ever, not once in five years and dozens of interviews been, “I saw them play Notre Dame on TV.” It’s usually word of mouth, a friend, graduate, or as the result of a visit. I’m not saying football doesn’t expose some to USNA, but I honestly don’t believe that it is a real driver for future CNO’s, astronauts, Blue Angels or Marine 2LTs/Ensigns.

Perhaps but probably not. The point is that NCAA Div I football is validation that USNA is a ‘real’ college and not an extension of Great Lakes Training Center. I don’t know how many times I have heard high school kids telling each other that, yes, USNA is a college, they played Notre Dame in football last weekend. The further one travels into the hinterlands, the more prevalent the validity of the correlation.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

My point is not about football, specifically. As I have said previously, I am a seven (almost eight) year season ticket holder, and I love going to Navy football games. But I go as much for the tailgating and meeting up with old friends and current ones as I do for the game itself.</p>

<p>I get the math and the economics of Navy football funding all the other sports. That’s been the mantra at least since I was at USNA 30 years ago. I don’t know or care if it’s really true or not, either. It’s always been used to scare people into the idea of perhaps moving out of the FCS/Div I. “OMG, the other sports programs will DIE if we go down!”

As to why this has turned into a football thread, I think your initial question to 2010 as to how many of the top 100 grads this year started it. Your theme throughout your posts seem to be fear and rumor mongering abojut football supporting the other Div I sports. Why do you feel it necessary to go to this length? Perhaps a simple explanation on your part as to how the non-revenue sports would be funded if we did not have Div I football would be more appropriate.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

The multi-tiered admissions process also engenders negative feelings in the Brigade because the kids want to believe that the best qualified people are there with them and not “quotas”. That’s also unfair to minority kids who are top achievers to be considered to be at USNA solely because of their race or ethnicity.
…</p>

<p>The Supe’s response says there is a single admissions process. Of course, there can be no disagreement with the fact that there is one process for all; what he doesn’t talk about are the exceptions that are made to the process to ensure a more diverse class.

Make up your mind. Is there a multi-tiered admissions process (a Fleming term) or is there not. If you go back and read and understand the US Code, Title 10, as it applies to USNA admissions, you would understand that a multi-tiered approach is not in accordance with Federal law. Adm Fowler has repeatedly stated that USNA Admissions practices, as currently utilized, follows the law and that the Board of Directors agree. As an official representative of the Superintendent of the Naval Academy, are you calling him a liar?</p>

<p>Current leadership feels that for the Navy to be viable into the 21st Century, with changing ethnic and racial demographics, that to properly fill the ranks with both quality and quantity of personnel, that changes must be made. Minorities must be recruited.</p>

<p>Many leadership experts, current CNO and JCS included, feel that a mature organization with a racial and ethnic blend across the board promotes diversity better than one where upper management is of a different racial/ethnic/gender blend. You mentioned in one of your posts, the necessity for concessions back when women were first admitted.Do you not support current directives to the extent that you feel they are now appropriate?</p>

<p>Again, as an official representative of USNA, your views do not seem to coincide with that of your leadership. Perhaps a reevaluation of your priorities more consistent with your responsibilities would be in order.</p>

[SONG72]

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@cga82

WOW! Sad case. That upsets me when you have kids that want to attend no matter what…You can’t control everything and you did your best. In the end that person was gone and the Brigade remains but could have made the spot avail for someone who wanted to be there. I still think that admissions does a phenominal job. I would hope that summer seminars and visitations would help prohibit these type of mistakes.

Take USNA84’s anecdotal support of Fleming with a grain of salt. He would lead you to believe that he has access to the candidates’ application files. He does not. Most every thing he learns is through the interview. An interview that, if one follows his rendition, began with negative expectations, and his expectations were fulfilled. What did the teachers say about these candidates? What points did they make in their essay? What was their total WPS? How many RABs did the Admissions Board award? Why did the candidate fail? The common conception is that there are enough resources available that should one want to succeed, they can.Perhaps there were other circumstances beyond being ill prepared.</p>

<p>There is a check-and-balance built into the system. This candidate either had direct or indirect support from her nomination source. Do you really believe that constituants will allow a MOC to continue to select obviously inferior candidates at the expense of the highly qualified? Has there been any fallout from this appointment?</p>

<p>Several years ago a candidate of strikingly similiar qualifications was awarded an appointment. Only after extensive digging by her BGO was it revealed that she had moved out of her broken home and been on her own her entire high school career. A high school career that included Captain of the softball team and making all-conference. Commander of the NJROTC. A full-time job necessitated by the fact that she was also supporting her sister’s infant daughter who she ‘adopted’ when she moved out. Guess what. She quit after a year. But she deserved a chance. More than 90% of those who show up in a couple of weeks. A BGO’s job is to find out what makes a person special, not posting their perceived shortcomings on an anonymous forum in support of a renegade professor.</p>

[SONG72]

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@Whistle Pig

In past years, there have been some stats provided on who graduates vs. who was appointed. There is some wide disparity among the groupings, as you might anticipate. Whixh may be more to your question.

True, if you consider 5% a “wide disparity” which the administration, in order to meet the needs of the Navy, obviously endorses.</p>

[USNA84]

<p>SONG72:</p>

<p>I read ADM Fowler’s response to Professor Fleming’s article - both the snippet that was published in the NY Times, and the full response that he wrote which the Times edited down to almost nothing.</p>

<p>When I read your comment about USNA being able to respond “more immediately than any other procurement source” it seemed to me that you were saying USNA could produce minority officers faster than any other officer accession program. I reread your comments, and still don’t quite understand the point of your latest comment about Saturday Morning Training. How does USNA SMT address the issue of minority officer accession?</p>

[USNA84]

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SONG72: The point is that NCAA Div I football is validation that USNA is a ‘real’ college and not an extension of Great Lakes Training Center.

</p>

<p>So, are Harvard and Yale not “real colleges?” They don’t play Div I football. </p>

<p>Look, in all seriousness, I get the problem of educating the average high school student about the fact that USNA is an accredited college, but I don’t agree that football is the best (or even in the top 5 best) way to do that. I have talked to reasonably well-educated people who think that the Army Navy football game is played between sailors and soldiers drawn from the Fleet and Army at large.</p>

<p>Last year, a teacher asked me “which Naval Academy” I was from at an awards ceremony where I was presenting an appointment to one of the graduates, and we live about 95 miles from USNA. So, even the teachers and counselors often don’t know about USNA, the opportunities there, etc. They don’t always understand the relatively onerous admissions process, nominations process or the need for multiple transcripts, recommendations and other requirements not often present with Big State U apps. I spend a lot of time going to the schools and briefing the teachers and counselors - usually in the Spring when things are winding down. That personal outreach from a BGO or any alumni is far more impactful than football on TV in raising awareness about USNA. I’ll say this again, since you just don’t seem to want to believe me - Navy Football is great, I just question whether it’s as important a recruiting tool as its most vocal supporters want everyone to believe.</p>

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SONG72: …if one follows his rendition, began with negative expectations, and his expectations were fulfilled.

</p>

<p>Not true at all. I go into every interview with an open mind as I did with this one. My impression of the candidate was based upon her responses to my questions, and my interpretation of those answers as warning signs is based on the BGO training I attended at USNA. The BGO Handbook (not I) says that LOA’s are used to reward “exceptional scholastic merit”. Based upon her self-reported class rank, SAT’s and grades in core courses that USNA tells us are markers for academic achievement and success at USNA, I saw no “scholastic merit.” </p>

<p>I found it ironic to be told during BGO training that West Point uses LOA’s to lock in candidates whom it thinks might choose another SA or another civilian school. It was said almost derisively as if WP needed to use LOA’s as a “sales tool” because they are less attractive than USNA or USAFA. The briefer said USNA was much more selective in whom it chooses for LOA’s. He even referenced the BGO Handbook and the scholastic merit piece. Something must have changed, as that has not been my observation in the past 5 cycles.</p>

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**SONG72:**This candidate either had direct or indirect support from her nomination source. Do you really believe that constituants will allow a MOC to continue to select obviously inferior candidates at the expense of the highly qualified? Has there been any fallout from this appointment?

</p>

<p>C’mon. Really? According to USNA, about 70% of MOC’s let the academies stack rank their candidates and send the list back to them. It’s then up to the MOC staff to decide which method they want to use, i.e. 10 unranked noms or principal nom with ranked or unranked alternates. The candidate in this case was a PNOM, BTW. USNA Noms and Appointments decided she was worthy of the nom, not an MOC. Most MOC’s involvement in the nom process is pretty peripheral other than gathering the app packages. You obviously know this.</p>

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SONG72: Current leadership feels that for the Navy to be viable into the 21st Century, with changing ethnic and racial demographics, that to properly fill the ranks with both quality and quantity of personnel, that changes must be made. Minorities must be recruited.

</p>

<p>I completely agree and support this goal, but I don’t think we are going as far as we need to go to reach the best candidates in that demographic. Every major college and university in the country competes for the cream of the minority talent pool, and the real challenge is how to make the SA’s and a military career attractive to that pool of talent. Furthermore, USNA is not the only commissioning source available to accomplish that goal.</p>

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SONG72: Make up your mind. Is there a multi-tiered admissions process (a Fleming term) or is there not.

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<p>Give it a rest. “Asked and answered,” as the lawyers say. There is one process. How the process is applied and/or used internally to build the class leaves room for lots of latitude and discretion. Professor Fleming isn’t the only person I’ve heard from who’ve actually been a part of the admissions process and who says that there are different criteria for different groups.</p>

[UMDAD]

<p>Actually, Harvard and Yale do play Division I football. They are in what used to be Division I-AA</p>

<p>Per IvyLeagueSports.com “All eight Ivy schools are among the “top 20” of NCAA Division I schools in number of sports offered for both men and women.”</p>

[USNA84]

<p>Busted. I should have said they’re not in the top 119 teams (or whatever it is this year)</p>

<p>I’m tired of the hate and discontent, already. Everyone who cares has a POV on the merits of Professor Fleming’s argument, and there’s no convincing either side differently. </p>

<p>Thanks for posting the piece, Luigi; it’s been a real “fun” discussion. :)</p>

[UMDAD]

<p>As someone who has no background with USNA, beyond my S’s appointment to the Class of 2014, I found both (i) Professor Fleming’s article and (ii) the Superintendant’s rebuttal interesting. I read both and am keeping my eyes and ears open re: the issues raised going forward.</p>

<p>Am I shocked to find allegations of a different standard for football athletes? No. How bad is it? I still have no idea. I’ll listen to S when he returns for Christmas and we (hopefully) watch USNA’s Bowl game.</p>

<p>Do the Ivy Leagues schools have athletic scholarships? No. Do they recruit? Yes, heavily. Do they have different standards for football athletes? Yes.</p>

<p>Instead of “football athletes” I probably should have said “revenue producing sports athletes” but those are different at every school.</p>

[LippytheLion]

<p>I am not even sure why, if in fact they do give preference to minority candidates, it is so wrong? I served in the Marine Corps, a good portion of the people I served with were minorities. Most of the officers and senior enlisted were white. Why shouldn’t a Latino, an African American, or a person with Asian ties see a person that knows what their culture, family and roots are about? This country is a nation of immigrants, no one including the American Indians are native to this land (I believe the theory that they crossed over from Asia). What makes one group have the right to control and lead another or other groups?
For many years, whites have run everything in this country. If you go to the cities, the schools are usually better for the white kids. The schools with minority students generally are not equal to the suburban schools that have white majorities. The kids from those schools have a lot more to overcome just to get to school each day. If a minority child has a lower SAT score, or a lower GPA, so what? That kid should be commended for climbing out of the hostile environments they grew up in.
I served in the Marine Corps, I have served under good and poor officers from all walks of life and from all types of universities.</p>

[Luigi59]

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@USNA84

Thanks for posting the piece, Luigi; it’s been a real “fun” discussion.

</p>

<p>You argued your position with tact, insight, and an attitude that others in your position (alumni/BGO/parent) immediately reject and refuse to admit that there may be a little trouble in paradise. Your open mind is a credit to this board and a credit to the community you serve. Bravo Zulu.</p>

<p>No question, all 5 of the service academies are great places.</p>

<p>[ul]</p>

<p>[li]If you are there, congrats you have a great future ahead of you. </p>[/li]
<p>[li]If you are considering attending, don’t let anything or anyone on some internet board dissuade you.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]If you are an alumni, be proud of your service and your school.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]If you are a parent of a cadet or mid, be extrememly proud, they are the best of the best.[/li][/ul]</p>

<p>But remain vigilant lest your beloved academy take on the bad characteristics so prevalent in civilian college world. Listen to the criticism before you decide to reject it because of the messenger. Attempts to silence Professor Fleming and his views are nothing more than an ignorant pollyanna bias that refuses to believe anything negative. </p>

<p>:cool:</p>

[UMDAD]

<p>In regards to LippytheLion’s comment, I recently attended the Michigan Parent’s Club “Hail and Farewell” brunch. W and I were struck that with 17 of 23 Michigan appointees in attendance, there was 1 Hispanic and 16 Caucasion kids. Per the listed hometown’s of the non-attending appointees, none of them could presumed to be minority kids either. The lack of minority representation was startling.</p>

[Whistle_Pig]

<p>Couple of thoughts UM …</p>

<ol>
<li>None there really know who the minority kids are. They are boxes checked and they take on VASTLY different appearances. Evan w/ their parents, often. So while your point no doubt holds fast, I’d not assume there were not “underrepresented Mids-in-waiting” there waiting. And I know you did say “none of the could be presumed to be minority.” I’ve 3 “minority” nephews, and they make Snow White look like she’s been stuck in the Sahara for a month w/out any sunscreen. :mad:</li>
</ol>

<p>2.Consider the event as well. Perhaps shows cultural bias …and I don’t mean that to be either cynical or otherwise contrary way.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>'84 …thanks for the insights and the nice, reasonable way in which you communicate your views. We’re learning at your foot …keep it coming. Dare I say you’re singing from the right hymnal?! :eek: </p></li>
<li><p>I Day’s but 2 weeks hence . Can’t you just feel the anticipation!!! Heck, I’m pumped for the grand adventure facing 1,200 of the best we have to offer. And I can’t even spell Eye Day! </p></li>
<li><p>Consider that most of these Plebes could be going to virtually any of the other elite institutions in the country. And most who will, could not be headed where these soon-to-be-pushing-up-Plebes will be! :p</p></li>
<li><p>GO NAVY! Embrace these lads and lassies. Make 'em your own! :D</p></li>
</ol>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

Candidate waited until May 1st to accept despite having the LOA at Thanksgiving. Told me she was waiting for other offers to come in from some Ivies (haha) and some big, eastern U’s. She just didn’t have the academic chops for those places. Meanwhile, the other kid she was competing against for the slot was kept hanging until her acceptance. He got a “no” around the 15th of May. Went Army ROTC at VMI. Another good kid lost. He’ll be a junior this Fall, but would rather be at USNA and tracking USMC. He just didn’t want to do Rat Year and then Plebe year right after it. I can’t say I blame him.

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@USNA84

The candidate in this case was a PNOM

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<p>USNA84, you have made every effort to show a correlation between these two candidates when, in fact, there is absoljutely none. As a BGO, you should know this. Assuming he was a MOC nom, two completely independent selection processes. The results of either having absolutely no effect on the other. But somehow you want to use it to demonstrate the shortcomings of the diversity effort. The young lady was a Presidential nomination, competing solely for one of the one hundred appointments for those nominees without another appointment. The young man was competing for a MOC nomination, to be first on that slate. He obviously was not. It was not this young lady who beat him out but another on the slate who was better qualified. There is absolutely nothing the Academy could have done as far as qualifying or disqualifying her or she could have done in accepting or declining her appointment that would have one iota of influence on the status of the young man. And if by some slim chance, he was also a Presidential, he was competing against the field, not her, and the situation remains the same.</p>

<p>This type of misinformation is that in which Fleming revels.</p>

<p>The Presidental appointments are there for the dependents of those who have made careers of serving their countries. An example of the military taking care of its own. A perk to level the playing field for those candidates who have moved often to the detriment of their class standings and athletic achievements. It is gratifying to see that she was given every benefit of the doubt.</p>

<p>Your illustration, instead of the detrimental example you wished, is actually an illustration of the system working as it should. Thanks for posting it.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

C’mon. Really? According to USNA, about 70% of MOC’s let the academies stack rank their candidates and send the list back to them.

Yes, and USNA has a legal responsibility to pick the MOST QUALIFIED candidate. The MOC trusts USNA to act responsibly. Violate that trust, disallusion the constituants, and watch that 70% decrease rapidly. This is not an area that Admissions will tamper with in playing games.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

Furthermore, USNA is not the only commissioning source available to accomplish that goal

Surely you are not suggesting that the Academy support something other than the needs of the Navy. If you will remember, VMI was threatened by one of the services to have its ROTC fundings severed because the all-male Corps did not reflect the conditions which the graduates would be operating in with females.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

When I read your comment about USNA being able to respond “more immediately than any other procurement source” it seemed to me that you were saying USNA could produce minority officers faster than any other officer accession program.

What I meant to say was that USNA could accomplish the task more seamlessly. Any hurdles, anticipated or not, could better be dealt with at USNA.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

So, are Harvard and Yale not “real colleges?”

Harvard and Yale do not have the recognition problems with the general public that the service academies do. Go down below. There is an entire thread devoted to stupid things friends and relatives say when someone has received an appointment to an Academy. Go back to the '50s and '60s. Everyone knew what the Academies were. Why? Before the Cowboys,they were America’s football teams. I defy you to find a newspaper, no matter how small and how far out in the boondocks that did not give Army and Navy football equal billing with the local big state university.</p>

[SONG72]

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@USNA84

How the process is applied and/or used internally to build the class leaves room for lots of latitude and discretion. Professor Fleming isn’t the only person I’ve heard from who’ve actually been a part of the admissions process and who says that there are different criteria for different groups.

WPS adjustments can be made to make the selection process racial, ethnic, and gender neutral. RABs can be awarded for exceptional areas including athletics. That is about the sum total of it.</p>