<p>Periwinkle, That takes care of relatives…but even then, not always. Grandpa can give $39,000 ($13,000 each) to daughter, son-in-law and grandchild before gift taxes kick in. Grandma can give the same. That’s $78,000 in tax-free gifts per year from one set of grandparents that can go straight to parents’ bank (maybe with a quick stop in the grandkid’s account). They could send even more if there are more grandkids (at $13,000 per grandparent per grandchild). But then there might be that bank account that’s off the radar. Or that job that’s not on the books. Or the revenues from the cash retail business that were understated. Who really knows – besides the parents – where that money comes from? In some cases there may be grandparents writing direct checks (more for the purpose of ensuring the money is used as it’s intended, I think, than for tax purposes) but I don’t think the business offices are very well informed as to where financial aid applicants are coming up with the funds to pay for an education that they claimed they couldn’t afford. And with only scant information as to the sources of funds, it’s hard to create a new process that will elicit that information in a revised PFS.</p>
<p>I question the following assumptions</p>
<ol>
<li> $200,000 </li>
<li> 10% find the funds on Tuesday</li>
<li> The FA applicant pleaded poverty</li>
<li> There is an Dear Aunt Tilly (Dat) in the background</li>
<li> DAT has availed her funds</li>
<li><p>DAT’s funds should be counted in the PFS</p></li>
<li><p>Isn’t it true that many families request far less than a full free ride? Isn’t it also true that even full pays are somewhat subsized by Alum and endowment contributions? Isn’t it much more likely that some of the financial aid waitlisted had much more modest requests of say $10-15,000 per year? If so, wouldn’t those with more modest request have more resources to tap and therefore be more likely to be able to find the funds?</p></li>
<li><p>Is there a link or reference to support that 10% of the FA waitlisted on Monday come up with the money on Tuesday?</p></li>
<li><p>Listing one’s income and assets and asking for FA is hardly pleading poverty. One does not need to be poor to lack the resources to fund a BS education.</p></li>
<li><p>I don’t know anyone who has a DAT with $200K sitting around. Who does?</p></li>
<li><p>Those that have that kind of capital tend to be rather cheap with it, so, I seriously doubt that is where the Tuesday morning funds come from.</p></li>
<li><p>Who even knows what level of capital family members have? What right do I have to ask a sister for my kid’s education. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>So, where could someone scratch together an extra $10-15K per year.</p>
<p>Sell possessions: watches, wine, boats, jewelry, golf club memberships, art collections, optics, coins, etc.</p>
<p>Stop funding 401k and IRA accounts</p>
<p>Sell the fancy cars and drive beaters with minimal auto insurance</p>
<p>Cut out all vacations, dining out, cable TV, smart phone services, etc.</p>
<p>Take a 2nd or 3rd job</p>
<p>Take out home equity loans</p>
<p>Take 401k hardship loans</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And that is how some families who are not “rich” can apply without requesting financial aid. They have made lifestyle decisions, often for many years, that have resulted in savings that can be used to fund their children’s education. (Choosing to live in a modest home with a smaller mortgage, choosing not to buy expensive luxuries, buying less expensive cars and driving them for a decade, choosing to take inexpensive vacations, having both parents work full-time, with additional jobs on the side, etc.)</p>
<p>It all comes down to “choice” - so many of the things that our culture considers “necessities” maybe aren’t when you step back and really think about it. But it is such a personal viewpoint, and every family has to make their own choices. I sometimes wonder how “mindful” we are in our choices, though - it is so easy to get swept up in the “everyone else is living this way, so it must be the way to go” mode of thinking.</p>
<p>Good points, Mountainhiker.</p>
<p>Isn’t an accept with a financial aid denial quite different from an accept and a FA waitlist? In the former, the school sees income and/or assets that could have been allocated to funding BS, perhaps over a period of a decade as you have alluded.</p>
<p>Could someone explain the difference between an accept with Fin aid denial and an accept with Fin aid wait list? I’m confused about this. Thanks!</p>
<p>How about I just answer this one for all of you as a family that found themselves full-pay without having a clue that the funds were there? This story has no loans, no benefactors, no property to sell, and no hidden wealth that we could see. Trust me, as Ive posted before, if we knew what peril checking that FA box put our sons application in, we wouldnt have checked it and wouldnt have applied at all because we did not believe for one minute we could afford it. But guess what? The schools TOLD us how we could afford it! By giving up every single form of savings (no more 529 or retirement contributions) and all FUTURE income from my job–sending every penny and then some of my paycheck, and living hand-to-mouth from husbands paycheck. We didnt apply for full FA; goodness, even we could see that we could eek out about half by stopping the 529 and giving up excess retirement contributions, but were in our mid-fifties and assumed there would be some leniency for retirement and basic living expenses. Nope. Weve always lived simply with an eye to retirement and not being a burden on our only child who appeared late in our lives. We drive ten-year-old, paid-for cars, we have no debt outside a small mortgage, no memberships, no cable, no vacations (fancy or otherwise), and our clothes have no distinguishing characteristics. We feel somewhat penalized for being financially responsible (but certainly not wealthy), but well take a $200K hole in our retirement funds and even simpler living to give our child this gift. Gladly. But, please, do not assume that a family who finds itself full-pay has somehow been deceitful and has used some sleight-of-hand to pull a rabbit out of a hat. We are grateful to the schools that did not reject our son outright and that took the time to help us see how we could make it possible, surprising even us. They did NOT look down their noses at us or make us feel that we were trying to game their system. They simply helped us shed our naiveté about our financial situation. We got the impression that they see our situation much more frequently than they see deceit.</p>
<p>As a postscript, I hope you all can see that not all full-pay families are 1%-ers and some of us may look pretty shabby when you see us on campus.</p>
<p>Also, we were not told on Monday and then came up with funds on Tuesday. We simply stopped all forms of savng and started putting half our income, paycheck by paycheck, into an account to pay the bills as they are due. And our simple lives have become even more restrictive. No one envy’s our lifestyle.</p>
<p>…And that is how some families who are not “rich” can apply without requesting financial aid… </p>
<p>Yes, Living a frugal style, saving money by giving up so much, not qualifying for FA. Folks with higher income and not saving, qualifying. </p>
<p>Fair or not Fair ?? Should not FA decision be based solely on Family income??</p>
<p>It does come down to lifestyle choice for many. I remember years ago when my daughter’s attended a local private school and the tuition was low enough that we could swing both without FA. But it was a real struggle and meant no funds going into my retirement (at the time I was younger and thought I’d live forever), etc. I was walking down the hallway and overheard the FA officer screaming into the phone “No, you don’t qualify for aid. You have a $500,000 mortgage and drive a brand new jaguar. Sell the car and the house and move into something you can afford!” The conversation went downhill from there. </p>
<p>I also had parents attend my reception for admitted students who pulled me aside and asked if I had some insider information that could get their student a scholarship at MIT because they couldn’t afford the $50,000 price tag. Apparently they owned their own business and had not filled out FAFSA because they didn’t want to reveal their income. I suggested they had time to do the form and appeal, but I got the impression that they were hiding income. Needless to say the student ended up enrolling somewhere else.</p>
<p>Some people play game - but most don’t. Like ChoatieMom, many families give up vacations, retirement funding, luxuries. We drive paid for cars and keep them limping along. We don’t eat out a lot.</p>
<p>I do agree with @Weatherby that there is a misconception that people who are waitlisted are full FA applicants. A large percentage of financial aid dollars is awarded to people who are receiving partial aid (perhaps with the exception of schools that instituted a “free under x$” policy. There’s just not enough money to spread among all qualified applicants and the dollars can go farther if you fund middle class families who can pay a portion. Plus I think people appreciate the experience more if they have some “skin” in the game.</p>
<p>BUT - for those parents reading this thread and panicking. There are also an awful lot of schools that don’t force middle class parents to stop funding retirement or other reasonable expenses. I know we found several in our research, and I’ve talked to parents who have been modest in their living expenses and were given adequate (partial) aid by their respective schools last year as well which didn’t involve stopping normal expenses. So it’s not universal. Different schools view things through different lenses so the answer is:</p>
<p>Depends on the specific school, their funds available, and the specific child.</p>
<p>Still - I have an old house with old house needs, so having allocated all extra funds for college and BS tuition, I’m desperately seeking DAT for those non tuition needs. Feel free to have her PM me if you find her.</p>
<p>weatherby, from where I am sitting, if someone has wine that can be liquidated in a way other than with a corkscrew, chances are they are what I would consider “rich”, regardless of their annual income. The same goes with the golf club membership (some of which are comparable to the cost of tuition).</p>
<p>back to the OP:</p>
<p>If I had a Dear Aunt Tilly, I would approach her at the beginning of the process or not at all. If a firm commitment was had, I would not apply for FA because I know that itself, would double my kid’s chances. As a matter of fact, that would probably be part of the plea to Aunt Tilly. If she said something like, “Well Dear, go ahead and apply for FA and if you don’t get it, I’ll pay.” I’d likely follow her advice because what else could I do? Whether I followed up or not after getting that FA WL letter, I don’t know. I just can’t say what I’d do in that hypothetical.</p>
<p>ChoatieMom: You’d be surprised how many people would envy your lifestyle. </p>
<p>The hole in your retirement of 200K is more than many will ever even have in theirs. And it’s not because they’re lazy or didn’t manage their money well, but because they went into professions that don’t pay that much - like teaching. I wouldn’t say that I “envy” you per se, simply because I tend to be pretty satisfied with my life, but I do admire you and have no resentment whatsoever. You are able to pay full freight by making sacrifices for the sake of your child. I would do the exact same thing in your situation.</p>
<p>Wow. So deep. But really, people are people. All people are greedy; I highly doubt many parents will sell every luxury or small bit of comfort they have just to be “nice” and “fair.” Guys, this is the real problem. In our world, people simply don’t care that much for others.</p>
<p>Why would a parent ask a relative (more like beg) for $200,000 when they haven’t exhausted all their resources yet? And, as Weatherby stated previously, many aren’t even applying for Full FA. They probably don’t want to be a HUGE burden on their family. Really, forcing your great aunt to give up her luxuries in the last couple decades or years or so of her life just to send your child to a prep school is…well…kind of cruel. Heartless, in fact. “Great Aunt Tilly” (or probably an aged parent) worked HARD for her money, and you have no right to take that away from her/him.</p>
<p>Not to mention the huge load of problems associated with obtaining the money. Desperate parents may go back to an abusive source that digs up strikingly painful wounds and memories. However, they will do it because they want the best for their child.</p>
<p>And, again. People are not, by nature, a totally selfless species. They will take things that aren’t necessarily “theirs for the taking.” However, that $200,000 you so sorely want them to pay the school just to have your child get more of a chance for financial aid could be WAY better spent on other resources. You know, people all over the world are starving. They are being abused, killed, murdered, tortured, beaten, hurt. They lack basic necessities, and $200, 000 could make a HUGE difference in the world. Do you really want them to spend the money on boarding school instead of trying to help others? People. Are. Dying. And yet, we’re not helping them much. </p>
<p>But really, ****ed-off parents—look toward yourself. Are you donating what you have to help others? You’re not that disadvantaged, literally living food-to-mouth. No one is poisoning your waterways or killing your children. And you expect others to help you first, instead of people less advantaged? Instead of saving others’ lives? Is your life more important than theirs?</p>
<p>Maybe I’m just naive. But after this post, I’m seriously reconsidering my decision to go to boarding school. I feel like a horrible human being.</p>
<p>@CollegeCookie: the question is what you will do with your boarding school experience. </p>
<p>I believe my experience 40 years ago enabled me over my career to make the world a significantly better place, both indirectly and directly when I worked on a education related project for the developing world for a number of years.</p>
<p>Andover helped instill “non-sibi” into me (one of Andover’s mottos…).</p>
<p>Such investments can have long, lasting returns, not just for you, but for the world. Whether this is true of all boarding schools, or only a few, is hard for me to say.</p>
<p>@CollegeCookie: BusterDad has a point. Get a top notch education and apply it to the greater good. And thanks for the reminder of what’s important.</p>
<p>Ditto what BusterDad said.</p>
<p>A lot of my Exeter classmates aren’t living lavish lives and quite a few have gone on to public service, non-profits, and volunteerism. </p>
<p>@CollegeCookie I know of several parents who are really struggling and are on FA waitlists. They are people who truly need the help. So please don’t assume that those discussing the situation are selfish, or have some hidden source of assets to be tapped. And even with your latter sentence about clean water and murdering children. I would direct you to West Virginia where the water catches on fire, urban areas with high levels of lead and abestos. Or Chicago where the murder rate is huge for children under 18 and the parents have no resources to move to a safer location. I would cite the woman in Ohio who is serving 12 years in jail because she enrolled her children in a good school district outside of where she lived (while a wealthy presidential candidate who did something similar got off scott free and his home state reimbursed for the cost).</p>
<p>You can’t possibly know what is going on in CC households. And in this economy - more and more people are slipping into a financial abyss. Retirement? I know of people who are close to losing their homes, have used up their retirements savings to try to stay afloat, and have been jobless for years. They aren’t being selfish. They’re desperate to break the cycle for their children.</p>
<p>Walk a mile in their shoes. Then read the thread about 8th graders wanting to go to Harvard. You can learn a lot about how we view students with opinions not grounded with facts (or compassion) come college interview time.</p>
<p>D’Yer Maker,</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>As the estimates are based on the family’s tax returns, hiding income would be tax evasion, wouldn’t it?</p>
<p>IMO, kind of late in the game to start figuring all this out, isn’t it? Why not just wait a few more days and see what you’re dealt.</p>
<p>Both Andover and Exeter have “Non Sibi” as their first/primary motto… I know many of my classmates took it to heart, as ExieMITAlum knows many of his classmates have.</p>
<p>I should have not have slighted ExieMITAlum by forgetting that the two schools share “Non Sibi” as their primary motto as well as the rivalry. I really do know better… And there are opportunities everywhere to put the motto into practice.</p>
<p>Kids reading this thread should take to heart that their parents are investing in your (and the world’s) future. It is up to you to return the investment to the world as you continue through life afterwards.</p>
<p>I was at an event where three different AOs spoke and each school handled the FA question differently. One was from a far wealthier school and said they really tried to give every student in need something close to the FA they required and keep the admissions decisions based on qualification. One school sent two letters, one accept or denial -independent of FA need - and one with the amount of FA offered, which might be far less than required. The third school would deny the student if they could not offer the FA requested.</p>
<p>There was a real difference in opinion between the latter two AOs: is it cruel to admit the child even though they probably can’t go, or should they know they were qualified to get in?
As a parent I’d probably want to just get the rejection letter; as a child…I’m not sure.</p>
<p>@kaflookey: that was exactly my point with my daughter’s experience being wait listed twice. I would have preferred she had been rejected, but she says she preferred being wait listed again. She had worked <em>very</em> hard to be admitted the second time around, and found it consoling that she had managed to have something as unusual as the second wait listing as a result.</p>
<p>Now, if she had interviewed better (the second time), or not had lyme disease just before the first application, I think the outcome would have been very different. But sometimes bad things happen to good kids…</p>
<p>Which would be best for your child, only you can judge.</p>