<p>[European</a> policy makers “should consult THE World University Rankings”](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/news/jack-straw]European”>European policy makers "should consult THE World University Rankings" | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>
<p>PG said:</p>
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<p>I have learned to suppress my frustration. (Exasperation is a better word. ;)) It no longer surprises me; just concerns me when the student has a 3.4 UW and W, middle scores, and very few activities. And then to watch the parent (happens often) berating the student publicly for that (when I gently convey the likely bad news). The parent seems to be “hearing this for the first time” (i.e., the likely outcome) and so vents frustration and disapproval onto the student.</p>
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<p>LOL, This is a serious question from you to me, PG, knowing me as you do? ;)</p>
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<p>First of all, they’re importing Asian values and expectations (layering them) onto a different economic and cultural reality. Usually it’s been less than 16 or 17 years they’ve been in this country – typically about 12 or even 10-11. Given language barriers, they have often spent much more time insulated than exposed. And culture and language are quite linked. The more fluent the parents, the more likely there has been comprehended interface with the host culture. </p>
<p>Second, it’s an emotional issue as much as practical. The only dishonesty I find in it is in the vast majority of the time it is NOT the student’s “dream,” it is the parent’s “dream,” a dream culturally imported.</p>
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<p>That would be ineffective. 
What I do say, though, knowing they will not let go of “dreams,” no matter how unrealistic, is to give them specific, recent, real-world examples of students I know who went to State Universities (not even the flagship), got fabulous opportunities there, applied themselves royally, got fab internship/job in that field locally, went on to the following actual U’s: Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, Brown. </p>
<p>(As an aside, several years ago (CC archives) after a blistering Yale Early Round, one person joined the discussion to discuss her humble degree at humble Providence College (recently) followed by acceptance to Yale in her field. I don’t mention CC to such people, haha, but I do mention ‘small,private college’ trajectory to Yale.)</p>
<p>So I ask them directly, “What do you think will happen to Stanford’s/ H’s/ Y’s/ C’s (etc.) graduate school in 5 years? are you concerned that the Ph.D. divisions will close within 5 years?” And I add, “Are you assuming that this student will finish his academic life with a 4-year degree?” They invariably admit No. It’s just that they think there “is a better chance” of getting into an Elite grad school if you have an Elite undergrad degree.</p>
<p>"My W is an immigrant from China who has had the “Harvard or bust” attitude for our S (I’ve been trying to talk her out of that for years). At least from my knowledge of her and her perspectives, I don’t believe the attitude is being fairly or accurately described here.</p>
<p>My W grew up with the belief that Americans are stupid and lazy people who have had the good fortune of being born into wealth. She also believed, along with a great many other people in her native country, that any intelligent Chinese person with a good work ethic who grew up in the US should easily rise to the top of the mediocre American pile. In addition, books authored by parents of Chinese students who were able to gain admission to Harvard and go on to have great success in life were quite popular in China. So the formula for success seemed pretty straightforward: Immigrate to the US, have a child, raise the child to have a good Chinese work ethic and ambition, apply to Harvard or maybe YPSM, get accepted, move on to a great career. If by some freak accident the child is not accepted into HYPSM, the back-up plan is for the child to go to the state university, have a decent career as an ordinary doctor or engineer, and then have children that can apply to HYPSM…</p>
<p>Her attitude may not be representative, but I would be surprised to find it were very far from the mark."</p>
<p>Ha, should talk to some older Japanese as to what they think of the Chinese! So much for old country perceptions.</p>
<p>Those who are intrepid enough to immigrate to another country and work very hard for their kids have every opportunity to enjoy the pinnacles of what that new country has to offer are very special people indeed and are not representative of the population as a whole. </p>
<p>THough the rankings may be a “racket”, they do pay off in that they do bolster the reputations of the schools. However, as I said before, sticking Caltech up there as #1 one year on the USN pyaramid did not give them a lasting boost. It’s more that the rankings reinforce what people already believe.</p>
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<p>The interesting thing is that what I have encountered is not so much this ^. The parents of the high-performing students are calmer and slightly more philosophical. Ironically, they’re more amenable to having a slightly “balanced” list. (haha, that means 8 reaches instead of 10, btw.) The parents who are the most difficult to deal with are the parents of students with imperfect academic profiles. They push more for reaches than anyone else.</p>
<p>There is, yes, the underlying cultural belief that college admissions is a (moral) “reward.” And I suppose you could say that the student with an imperfect profile has worked “even harder” (in many cases) than those with “perfect” profiles. But often not. Often those students have worked no less hard nor harder than better performers. Some students have chosen the more Americanized path of balance (lots of activities), which has affected their grades, because those are not the exceptional students who truly can “do everything.”</p>
<p>Not every Chinese-American student is brilliant. Not every Indian-American student is brilliant. There is a great myth out there about this (which also feeds the “discrimination” assumption). It may also surprise some of you to learn that diagnosed and diagnosable Learning Disabilities (and at the moment I’m putting aside Aspergers and Autism) exist in some Asian students. It is more hidden, and much more an experience of shame, but I find it heartbreaking to encounter it – only because of the disparity between family/community expectation and realistic student ability.</p>
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<p>Yes, but how can you live in the US for any period of time and not simply observe that wealth isn’t really a function of HYPSM attendance? Like there aren’t PLENTY of HYPSM grads who are working at middle management jobs right alongside not-elite-school grads? How can she not see what’s right in front of her?</p>
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<p>Aren’t you just deferring it, though? “Don’t worry about not getting into HYPSM - you can get into HYPSM for grad school?” It still doesn’t address the core cultural mistake, that only HYPSM are worth writing home about or provide opportunities.</p>
<p>What would happen (or has happened) when you have said to them – “Let’s just pick on Tufts vs Harvard. What opportunities exist at Harvard that don’t exist for the most part at Tufts?”</p>
<p>It seems a very zero-sum view of the world - instead of recognizing that there are 30,000 opportunities at Harvard and 25,000 at Tufts (and any one student can’t take advantage of more than 10), it’s either “opportunity on” or “opportunity off.”</p>
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<p>Yes, it’s a core cultural [misunderstanding]. But they’re not at the next step yet. They seriously believe, in dollars, that only HYPPSMCCBD (& they will grudgingly add the top LAC’s) are “worth” it. It’s that or the State flagship, if they live in such a State that can boast a meaningful correlation to the term. They literally believe that no other institutions are worth the sticker price.</p>
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<p>That’s being rational, PG. This is not a rational issue to them, as I’ve tried to explain. And they wouldn’t be able to answer the question anyway. It’s also not about opportunity to them; it’s about reputation. (Even if they agreed with you about the opportunity part.)</p>
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<p>It is a zero-sum view. Further, getting 10 rejections --because you were stubborn as opposed to being realistic-- is not a dream; it’s a nightmare.</p>
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<p>Well, it is hard to fault the Chinese for believing in a formula that … actually worked for a long time and paid huge dividends in the form of statistically skewed admissions. </p>
<p>However, to be a tad more correct, one should add the “good Chinese work ethic and ambition” a good dosis of gamesmanship through a focus on maximizing the r</p>
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<p>Define “period of time.” As I mentioned earlier, sometimes this is 10 years (sometimes even less). My own last 10 years have pretty much flown by. If I were dogged about researching something, I would have had to make concerted efforts during those 10 years, to carve away time just for research into undergrad/grad school in a foreign country, and all the various exigencies surrounding that. In the meantime, I’m trying to adjust to the language, the politics, the economics, the housing, and merely earning a living (all of which affects my available time). If I didn’t anticipate ahead of time the need for research, I might not engage in it consistently or objectively.</p>
<p>“Not every Chinese-American student is brilliant”
-But most are definitely very hard working. Brilliant does not cut it anyway, but look at overrepresentation in every top programs, starting with Middle School. Brilliancy is way overrated. Just tell your kid when she is 5 to do all homework assignments, do them correctly and turn them on time, it will do, guaranteed straight As, no brilliance required, not even Chinese heritage is needed.</p>
<p>Miami, it does have indeed little to do with brilliance. It would, however, be naive to think that the efforts are mostly based on delivering homework on time, and do what is expected well. There is a complete parallel world that is hard at work through outside classes and reliance on “academic” communities here and abroad. </p>
<p>The line between excellence and exploitation of a system has never been narrower.</p>
<p>“be naive to think that the efforts are mostly based on delivering homework on time, and do what is expected well”
-this is not my thinking at all, I have described my experience in my own family (not Chinese). I told my D. at 5 to do her homework well. I told her that because she did not understood at 5 after receiving her first tiny assignment, that school has just became her priority #1. If you tell them early enough, you will not need to repeat it either. Family support is a must, there is no question. But family will not do homework for a child, family can help understanding of concept, which is another story. I am also aware of “academic” communities. Some immigrant communities have their own school to bring kids up in math and science, which are not taught properly in k -12. However, it is again, another side. I was just mentionning that it is very possible to have all As all thru graduation from college by simply doing the work, doing it correctly and doing it on time. This is the simplest way known to me, very straight forward and it works.</p>
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<p>No. There is no such “guarantee” for the non-brilliant student. Some non-brilliant-but-bright students will achieve that; others will not. Still others (less bright) will NOT achieve that. This is my field.</p>
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<p>This is highly dependent of the school that issues the grades. I can see how what you state could be correct in a great number of schools. On the other hand, there are schools that require a combination of hard and consistent work and … a bit of luck to earn that elusive A. Ever heard of the Mr. or Mrs. A, the teacher of hell who never give an A? </p>
<p>Further, not all schools rely on a five letter grading system but have a 0-100 grading scale with a loose corresponding scale for reporting. Getting a 90 night be different from obtaining a 92, 93, 94, or even 95 in certain classes.</p>
<p>All in all, while I believe that there a few excuses for dropping below a B grade, the road to an all-As scorecard requires navigating past a number of academic bombs. At least in schools that require more than giving teachers a red apple every week!</p>
<p>They can always end up in a college where there is no credit for homework and all one can get credit for are exams.</p>
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<p>Following the “trail” has gotten worse with the advent of professional college counselors who are paid big bucks to keep an eye on developing successful trends in order to replicate them for their charges before they grow stale. The pioneer trail quickly becomes a tour package with fast food joints and tacky souvenir places all along the way.</p>
<p>There was a time where a 3rd world goodwill effort was more than a vacation getaway and doing research required significant interest and diligence, not just family connections.</p>
<p>Epiphany is correct on all counts, IMO (this coming from a Silicon Valley resident).</p>
<p>Oh, btw, did anyone in the thread address the point that it matters WHAT one wishes to study in college/university? This can’t be one of the contentious points. I understand some will say Harvard or the high road, and some are eager to perpetuate this nonsense.</p>
<p>This doesn’t mean Harvard isn’t a major institution, we all know it is. It is also very, very wealthy - and that helps to maintain it’s status. Still, let’s accept there are a TON of factors relative to one’s educational experience and choices/opportunities, successes that follow…I actually think we all have different biases, interests related to which of these factors we weigh the most! For example, NE people who won’t dream of sending their kid outside of the NE…gee, let me assure you there are tons of educated people out there in other areas who think otherwise…I put no geographic limitations on my kids.</p>
<p>FIT is so important. To think that some parents “insist” on their kids being miserable at an Ivy is truly sad. It does NOT mean the student is a “loser” if s/he doesn’t see a fit with a certain institution, even if it is “prestigious.” Gee.</p>
<p>“Prestige” rankings of a university for undergrad study don’t fully correlate with individual departments, regional locations, opportunities…there are SO many factors relative to one’s choice of where to apply.</p>
<p>Students also have INDIVIDUAL experiences at college/university; not all “Harvard experiences” for lack of a better way of putting it, are going to be equal!</p>
<p>Then there are weird admissions stories (acceptances AND refusals); then there just so many factors in play. We are individual humans, not automatons. There are many high achievers, “gifted” students, and yet we should respect people no matter where they went to school. We don’t know everything about every school, but I like to say the school wouldn’t exist if it didn’t have some merit. I think some schools are ultra-publicity machines (I live right near one that is desperate to be labeled “Ivy”) and others are just not into that - this then factors into some peoples’ perceptions because they haven’t been hit over the head with the accomplishments or merits of that school (in published material, PR efforts, and so on).</p>
<p>It IS true that certain “stats” have merit on their own: # of winners of major academic prizes, etc. But these don’t determine the overall “winningness” or “top ranking” all on their own. They are INTERESTING facts. But if you are an undergrad, how likely are you to have access to/study with the Nobel winner (for example)…</p>
<p>One of the biggest problems is this is a large, diverse country and some fine institutitions have not publicized themselves in certain overseas high-population areas where students are applying here; therefore they are “not worthwhile” in the eyes of those folks!</p>
<p>I think that if a student has put forth the effort to put together a reasonably competitive application for top schools – then that student has all he / she needs to be successful in life, regardless of whether he / she hits that particular jackpot. </p>
<p>(Which is not to say that you can’t be successful if at age 17, you don’t have that kind of application.)</p>
<p>Has anyone mentioned that one of this year’s Nobel prize winners, a Stanford professor, went to a directional public university for undergrad? What’s that school’s ranking or is it ranked at all?</p>
<p>Why, since you asked, I checked: University of Minnesota-Duluth, currently ranked no. 35 in USNWR’s midwest regional list. OOS tuition is about $14k a year.</p>