The experience of an Ivy reject

Parent Cafe
221

<p>bclintonk–I apologize for what you called a low blow–I was defending my supposed ilk and extended the metaphor a bit too much. And, btw, not all of what I said was aimed at you specifically either–I merely used your post as a jumping off point. Sorry if that was unclear to you. It’s just the general attitude that those from the NE and those whose kids apply to ivies are all the same and are so misguided as to practically be pitied is a bit hard to swallow for me. </p>

<p>I’m wondering what a class val from a top HS with perfect SATs, an astronomical GPA, etc. should aspire to–a CC? D’s HS val had highest GPA ever recorded at their school, did major scientific research, and won several prestigious nat’l awards/competitions in several different disciplines, and achieved 5’s on 14 APs just for starters. She only applied to 6 ivies and was accepted at all. Her scientist parents both were ivy grads with advanced degrees. Her 2 older brothers both class sals also went ivy. No one, not family, friends, GCs, teachers would ever have suggested she look elsewhere. Many were jealous of her and sneered at her behind her back, but no one ever said she didn’t belong at an ivy or should consider state u or anything else. Just wondering what a kid like that should aim for so no one thinks her to be parochial?</p>

<p>Anyway, bclintonk-- these are your words:</p>

<p>“I never said “elitism.” I said “parochialism,” as in “regional chauvinism.” Many Northeasterners mistakenly conflate the two because they automatically assume their region is “elite,” but in my view that’s just one more manifestation of their parochialism
;-)”</p>

<p>And that is still a dig. You deny calling NE’ers elitist but you say “they automatically assume their region is “elite,” …” I don’t see a tremendous difference. The implication is virtually the same. Saying it’s “one more manifestation of their parochialism” is not exactly a compliment either–even when followed by the winky face. ;-)</p>

<p>Evidently you added the following while I was cogitating:</p>

<p>"(Let me hasten to add that I say this all in good fun as a “reformed” Northeasterner myself, having spent more of my adult life in the Northeast than in any other region). "</p>

<p>So, I now see that you edited your post to include this parenthetical addendum–btw, had I read this I most likely would have responded slightly differently. But why you need to characterize yourself as “reformed” is a head-scratcher–as if being from the NE is a disease like alcoholism that you need to leave and go to an out-of-region rehab to get it out of your system. So, forgive my stinging words, but I still don’t agree with your assessment, nor do I think it was such good fun for everyone.</p>

<p>I realize I shouldn’t get caught up in this oneupsmanship and should confine my comments to the more positive kind. So, in the true spirit of the NMD’s OP and his exceptional D’s accomplishments–I say bygones to all who disagree with me and wish to label me and mine. I hope that all those who do not get into the schools they think are ideal find a great home elsewhere and find some solace in NMD’s D’s inspiring journey.</p>

222

<p>Since some responders here have asked for activities, not awards, let me comment a bit, and also give you some lessons I learned in this process:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>trust your kids and let go a bit. They’re going to do what they want, whether you like it or not, so why not support them in their choice? Examples: </p></li>
<li><p>Frosh year, D decided to work in a lab. Money was (and is) tight in our family, so we had told D she would need to work part time at college for spending money. Of the labs that offered her work, she chose the only one that did not offer an immediate stipend, just a “promise” to discuss it the next quarter if she worked hard. We parents were not very happy with the choice, discussed it with her (and she commented "since when does our family only care about money?) She eventually did get paid some, got a summer fellowship to work in the lab, and of course used the work in that lab to suport her Goldwater. (and got a few publications out of the work).</p></li>
<li><p>Not easy for science majors to spend a year abroad. So she decided to spend the summer abroad, in of all places Bolivia. She went with her own “plan”, a place to stay that she found through Craigslist for Peru, and she went with the names of contacts. Parents thought this was a crazy idea. I even called her adviser. to ask if this made any sense at all. The adviser calmed me down. The result was a series of life changing events, including being one of a very few numbers of Caucasians witnessing a historic political event. Google “cabildo” and “bolivia”, then look for an english language blog for details. Calmom, these are the “accomplishments” you are looking for. (privacy? hers was blown a long time ago when her name was picked up by all the wire services as a Rhodes winner. She was one of three featured in the press release. I, thankfully, still have mine. :slight_smile: So I can continue to post ) Her Bolivia experience was the basis for her Rhodes essay.</p></li>
<li><p>This past summer she did a project in Kenya, piggybacking off a fellow student (much a go getter, resume builder and publicity hound - founded his own NGO, does press releases and such) I, as a suspicious parent, worried about her efforts being subsumed into someone else’s project etc. (they probably were, but…). This project forms the basis for her Masters thesis, and was key for her winning essay. </p></li>
</ul>

<p>These are just three examples of where we parents had to learn to trust our kid’s judgment, stay out of the way and be supportive. It is not easy, but it is essential.</p>

223

<p>It’s amazing what a narrow-minded world some people live in if the consider the University of Chicago to be an “ok choice.” </p>

<p>Regardless, congrats to your D. Sounds like a pretty smart kid.</p>

224

<p>

</p>

<p>But you’ve set up a straw man – Ivy League on one side, Average State U on the other. The whole point is, there are lots of wonderful colleges and universities that are “above” the typical state u (and Michigan and Cal and VA people, I’m not talking about those kinds of places, so take a breath) and offer opportunities that are, on the margin, only slightly less than the Ivies. I mean, really. Like there aren’t plenty of opportunities to satisfy anyone’s liking at Vanderbilt? Or Carnegie Mellon? Or Cal Tech? Or Carleton? Or Georgetown? Or Mt Holyoke? Or Occidental? Or Davidson? etc.</p>

225

<p>

</p>

<p>She should aspire to and look at top schools, of course. It would be odd, however, for her to say first, “I want them to be Ivy” and go from there, when the Ivies happen just to be 8 of the top 20 or so. It would make more sense for her to say “I want top schools that fill xyz criteria” (whatever her other criteria are - excellence in a particular field of study, certain internships, etc.) and quite naturally, some of the Ivies will “shake out” in that selection. But to start with “I want them to be Ivy”? Yeah, that’s a prestige-chaser.
And if the peer culture of the school is that way, then it’s an unsophisticated peer culture.</p>

226

<p>

</p>

<p>My whole point in this whole thread hasn’t been that “Ivies are bad schools” (because, well, that would be an incredibly stupid thing to say) but about the impact of peer culture, especially when the peer culture is something as stupid as the world-revolves-around-Ivies-and-U-Chicago-is-sloppy seconds.</p>

<p>And I submit that being wrapped up in other kids’ business to the extent that you would know that your daughter’s class valedictorian had 5’s on 14 AP’s is part of the problem. I’m sorry, I think it’s extremely odd that someone would concern themselves with some other student’s business (not their own kid) to that extent. And that nosiness is part of the issue with the peer culture that apparently can’t be ignored.</p>

227

<p>

</p>

<p>Correct. And the order of preference may not be exactly the same as the selectivity. True, Harvard and Yale are at the top of my D’s list for both selectivity and personal preference, but #3 is Northwestern, #4 probably Georgetown, followed by a couple of ivies. She prefers UMich and Oberlin over Brown and Penn, which is why the latter two schools did not even make it on her list.</p>

228

<p>Exactly. I mentioned upthread my nephew, who is certainly competitive for the top schools and attends an elite prep school. Even though his prep school is excellent, the advice they gave him focused mostly on HYPSM. That’s great, but those are obvious choices. His parents hired a private counselor who turned him on to some other places. Claremont McKenna was one of those that “shook out” as a top contender, after doing more research. That’s a perfect example of having just a little more sophistication than just the obvious let’s-look-at-the-Ivies. Maybe some eyebrows will be raised if he gets into and chooses to attend Claremont McKenna instead of the others. Oh well. As if the truly elite spend their time worrying what other people think.</p>

229

<p>Kantianethicist? Take a breath; I am originally from the NE myself, and I get the mentality. I really do. It’s just that with my 40+ years on this earth, I got a little more experience and guess what? Despite what a lot of NE-erners think, really, living in upper middle class suburban Boston or NYC or Philly isn’t all that tremendously different from living in upper middle class suburban Chicago or St. Louis or Minneapolis or Atlanta or anything else.</p>

230

<p>Just read post #1, for some reason reminded me of this:</p>

<p>"As a high-school senior, former Treasury secretary Robert Rubin applied to Harvard (accepted) and Princeton (rejected). Four years later Rubin sent a letter to the Princeton admissions director: “You might be interested to know what happened to one of the people you rejected… I graduated from Harvard summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa.” The dean’s reply: “Every year, we at Princeton feel it is our duty to reject a certain number of highly qualified people so that Harvard can have some good students, too.” </p>

<p>So, in like fashion, a few of these schools decided to Give UC a great student too. I imagine UC reciprocates now and then as well.</p>

<p>Might be a more compelling story if UC was not itself one of the nation’s elite universities.</p>

<p>But in any event, shows that great talent exists at more than 6 schools. It exists in at least 7, by this reckoning, and UC is one of them. No great revelation there.</p>

<p>But congrats to daughter, it’s great to read some of these outstanding results.</p>

231

<p>There are also a lot of assumptions that the pinnacle of corporate America is Wall Street. It sure isn’t in MY mind! I work for a Fortune 200 (or so) corporation with the most wonderful, ethical, gifted CEO imaginable. He is highly regarded in our industry and outside of it. He graduated from LSU. He has had a wonderful career and is, obviously, very successful. He never aspired to Wall Street. Same with our General Counsel. He didn’t graduate from a top law school and he had no desire to work in NYC.<br>
I am constantly amazed at the narrowness of people’s views on how “success” is defined.</p>

232

<p>A little side trip, but related to the main theme.</p>

<p>There is an on-going debate on the U Chicago forum about the danger of U Chicago becoming too much like HYP, and not remaining a safe haven for quirky intellectuals and ascetic monks in a hair shirt. It is clear that U Chicago is catching up with its peers in terms of playing the ranking game, increasing the prestige, etc. This year, their EA number jumped by 54% with better PR and marketing drives. Now, there are people who are really concerned: will this result in a student body consisting of those who are not true acolytes of the life of the mind mantra, but are just carpetbaggers from the land of the Ivies?</p>

<p>It will be interesting to see where this is heading.</p>

233

<p>No personal dog in any U of C fight (other than thinking it’s a great school), but I think it’s already a shame how the Ivies and similar top schools (my own alma mater included) are getting increasingly pre-professional, and I would find it sad for U of C to do the same and be just-like-all-the-rest.</p>

234

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t have any relation to U. of C either. However, I think the fear is not that it will become more pre-professional, just that it will be less intellectual. UPenn is the only ivy that has a reputation of being too pre-professional. At U. of C, my impression is that the culture is that intelligence is paramount and is the avenue to success in every field. (U. of Chicago grad and Nobel Laureate Watson joked that at U. of Chicago they have a little too much confidence in the power of intellect.) At the ivies, the attitude is more that they will assemble the best of everything and that the students have already cleared an intelligence bar before they got there (i.e., they can “do the work” but that’s not why they are there).</p>

235

<p>To add on my earlier post, I kind of feel like MIT is becoming more like an ivy league school in terms of how it chooses its people–a little less academic, but more EC’s, more community activism. I wasn’t surprised when MIT recently broke a school record with three American-born Rhodes Scholars this year. I’m not sure that’s a good thing.</p>

236

<p>“And I submit that being wrapped up in other kids’ business to the extent that you would know that your daughter’s class valedictorian had 5’s on 14 AP’s is part of the problem. I’m sorry, I think it’s extremely odd that someone would concern themselves with some other student’s business (not their own kid) to that extent. And that nosiness is part of the issue with the peer culture that apparently can’t be ignored.”</p>

<p>Pizzagirl–Class val is my D’s friend and I have known her since she was 5, so I do know a lot about her on a personal level. Aside from that, these things are generally known by everyone in our district because val and sal bios listing all of their stats, awards, accomplishments, college admissions info and aspirations are published both in school newspaper and community district newsletter. My D who ranked within top 10 did not have to submit to this scrutiny and kept her business to herself. Achievement is celebrated–not my choice or doing, and sorry, has nothing to do with where I put my “nose.”</p>

237

<p>THANKS OP for a great post…and for those with similar reality checks, TheDad, Xiggi etc</p>

<p>so important to be available and listening…</p>

<p>College apps and the process have clearly changed from what it was about 30 yrs ago for DH and I…
and we realize what our students face is different in many respects
yet, stilll the same </p>

<p>when they are learning about trying, failing, and getting up and trying again, making choices, etc…
…continuing on the journey instead of being focused only on a destination.</p>

238

<p>

</p>

<p>No, not “everyone knows.” Just because bios are listed in a school newspaper (etc) doesn’t mean that you’re obligated to read them in full and commit every detail to memory. At my kids’ latest school assembly, there was a senior who won a gazillion awards, in languages, history, math, attended some fancy summer program someplace, won a bunch of local scholarships, etc. Clearly a talented young lady who will go far. Sure, they discussed some of her academic achievements, but why would I or anyone else in the audience commit all that to memory? She’s not my kid. I couldn’t even tell you now which language she was winning a lot of awards for.</p>

<p>I think when people complain a lot about the “peer culture” that makes their kids feel bad if they don’t get into an Ivy and have to settle for a “lesser” school, they need to take a long hard look about how they participate in that peer culture in the first place.</p>

239

<p>In the lead-in to the current World University Rankings the President of the University expressed what defines Chicago. Many just want it to remain as such:

</p>

240

<p>Seriously, how do other universities survive without dishing out all the hype Chicago seems compelled to? Our family found all the pretension thoroughly obnoxious. Give it a rest, already!</p>