The experience of an Ivy reject

Parent Cafe
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<p>And why do you need to believe that? (Instead of the evidence.) Who cares what they say? I think you do, a little too much. </p>

<p>Look, where I live there and where my D’s went to school, the people who were the power-brokers at the private school determined personal worth by financial worth. And yet my D’s, lacking in wealth to say the least (especially compared to theirs), have so far way outperformed any of those S’s and D’s. So who has greater personal worth now? </p>

<p>You should post on the “honesty” thread!</p>

<p>And I don’t quite agree with you about “the real lesson.” I agree that’s a subsidiary lesson, but not primary. I think the primary lesson is: believe in yourself, and parents believe in what you know to be your child’s inner worth. You yourself must have conveyed that to accomplished D. Because I remember one of her undergrad years when you stated on the board that she had declared to you her determination to get all A’s that semester. She believed in herself undoubtedly at least in part because you also passed that on, in no small measure.</p>

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<p>newmassdad- Congrats to your daughter and I’m glad she got so much out of her Chicago education. When I was in law school there, I was intimidated by the brains walking around the undergrad part of the campus! They were nerdier back then, but the place is simply a fortress of intellectualism. My kid almost transferred there from his Ivy and said he thought Chicago offered a superior education in many ways, but he wound up staying put and creating what he needed for himself.<br>
There just are not ten or twenty “best” schools in this country/world. There are many, many more.</p>

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<p>We on CC know that this can’t be true since we know that Ivy League schools also factor in their institutional needs when choosing the upcoming class. A kid may not be the best of the best, but he can get into Harvard if he is pretty darn good, can throw the football, and is applying in a year when Harvard needs a quarterback.</p>

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<p>NMD, as someone who has known about the amazing success of your daughter after the Ivy League deception, I applaud you for posting the story here. As you know, there are a few other CC examples --including TheDad’s account posted above–of students who ended up doing EXTREMELY well after being “hit” by the Yale brutal selection in that year. Being from “that year,” I have always found the details and final outcomes very interesting and … enlightening. </p>

<p>As I have often written here, none of us --and despite vociferous claims of people being insiders or part of the inner circles-- knows why a particular applicant is admitted, let alone rejected. The best anyone can do is adhere to the party line that colleges do not select individuals as much as they build a class that is supposed to be complementary andcohesive. We have all heard about the second best oboe player in the nation being rejected because the best in the country also applied that same year --or something along the lines of those infamous oboe fictional stories! </p>

<p>One fact that is hard to deny is that, despite the pain, the possible loss of self-confidence, AND parental disappointment,the students themselves end up doing AMAZING things and fully enjoy an experience they might not have selected otherwise. After all, few 17-18 years old DO know what is the best school for them … and the same can be said from parents who rely on brochures and incomplete perceptions of quality and reputation. </p>

<p>Fwiw, in a way, the success that follows the rejection might serve as a “redemption” for the adcoms who delivered the bad news, and perhaps a vindication of a choice THEY knew was hurtful. Perhaps, just perhaps, the same adcoms felt that this student DESERVED a better fit. Yes, that elusive better fit! </p>

<p>Setting aside the preaching and the defense of the “system” I want to again thank NMD --and others-- for having the courage to share personal stories who might help others understand that December, January, and April of a student’s senior year is NOT the end of the world. And the same can be said when good news come. The admittance or rejection to a particular school is ONLY the beginning of a new life. It is up to the student to make the best of his or her college years. It so happens that many end up doing it spectacularly well! Credit goes obviously to them, but a lot should also go to the parents who demonstrated the value of unconditional love and support.</p>

<p>The stories posted herein are heart-warming and provide great learning tools for the “generations” to come.</p>

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<p>I’ve never heard that. I have heard even committee members say that they can’t quite put their finger on why particular outstanding students were rejected any particular year. The whole process is a combination of analysis, synthesis, and unscientific perception. I have heard of parents and teachers and counselors expressing non-surprise at the admissions results of an apparently elite-bound student, but most people in the last 7+ years would be foolish to go so far as to make absolute statements, including comparative ones.</p>

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<p>Thank you very much newmassdad for a very timely post. Someone should keep bumping this, espcially during the Dec 15, Apr 1 dates. I have one general comment, please don’t take it as a personal criticism:</p>

<p>Congratulations to your D for all those extremely competitive awards and scholarships. Does your past experience make you think though, that many of her competitors for those awards were also equally capable but just unlucky (just as she was equally capable as those accepted to the ivies but unlucky)?</p>

<p>Being awarded prizes is great, but wouldn’t it be wonderful if our sense of self-worth were not dependent on external recognition, especially recognition that by its very nature disappoints far more individuals than it rewards?</p>

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<p>Elsewhere on CC are academic data about some Ivy athletic recruits that really are a bit jaw dropping IMO. Hard not to get jaded with stuff like this going on. </p>

<p>When DS decided on his college list, I was pleasantly surprised to see not a single Ivy on his list. T10 schools yes, but no Ivys.</p>

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<p>Amen to that, VP!</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t describe anyone as an “Ivy reject.” Getting into Yale now is a crap shoot and I and most of my class likely wouldn’t get in again. In fact, I’d bet that if you took the kids admitted without big hooks - like $$$ or race - and then if you reshuffled the pool and ran the admissions process over and over again from scratch, there would be substantial difference in each class admitted. So what? Life is what you make it, not the name on your college degree.</p>

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<p>I would be interested to know if anyone has a child who was rejected from the Ivys who didn’t get over it and bloom wherever they were planted. </p>

<p>Does anyone have a child who is still upset about it (not just a bit ticked when they think about it, but still genuinely emotional abou it) years later?</p>

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<p>NMD–I’m just so pleased for you and D</p>

<p>TheDad too, as we’ve all been around since applying UG and now jobs and grad school.</p>

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<p>For the many Ivy success stories there are not so successful stories as well. Close friend of S1s chose a top Ivy. The student worked very hard, did very well academically and ok socially, but had trouble with the faculty of a small department which caused no end of grief, and got into none of the student’s first choice grad programs. Now, enrolled unhappily at a less than ideal grad program and questioning what to do next. This is not met as a knock against the Ivies, but posted only as a reminder that idealized success, even for very smart hard working kids, is not guaranteed by admission to one school or another.</p>

<p>In regards to UChicago, I have not been as happy as others to see Chicago’s acceptance rate drop from nearly 40% to the mid 20s in 5 years and appears to be trending down. The school provides a very unique environment whose culture has historically supported inquiry and pursuit of ideas over almost anything else. Not that one won’t find instances of that elsewhere, it is just nice to have a school where that is the mission. It produces leaders while not participating of the admissions arms race for the “next generation of leaders,” I only hope it continues to do so.</p>

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<p>I too think newmassdad’s post is sour grapes. I think that in part because, without going back and counting, I think this is at least the 4th time he’s posted something similar to this. It seems that he isn’t yet over the fact that his D was rejected by the Ivies. </p>

<p>The selection process of the Ivies may be unfair. IMO, the selection process for the Rhodes and the Goldwater is FAR more unfair. Neither is a national competition. Geography has a lot to do with it. Anybody remember Joe Jewell? He used to post a lot on various college boards. He was wait-listed at CalTech. Then he was named a US Presidential scholar from Michigan and got off the wait list. He went to CalTech, did well there, and got to be the nominee from CalTech for the state of California for a Rhodes. (Each college can only nominate one undergrad from each state for a Rhodes. Applicants can choose to compete in the state of their residence or the state in which they attend college. I assume newmassdad’s D competed from Illinois. After states, you compete at the district level. ) </p>

<p>Joe didn’t win the state. He went to UMichigan for grad school straight from CalTech. Grad students aren’t included in the “only one rep from each state can be nominated by a college” rule. He won Michigan and went on to win a Rhodes.
So, while one year earlier, he wasn’t able to win the state of California, he now got to be a Rhodes Scholar. Geography plays a big role in all this.</p>

<p>The Goldwater only allows colleges to name 4 candidates. Getting the nomination from MIT is EXTREMELY difficult. Some of those who are not nomniated undoubtedly would be actual scholars if they had chosen to attend other colleges.
(I don’t think there’s ever been a year in which all 4 nominees from MIT didn’t end up as scholars.) </p>

<p>Some schools, I think the U of Oklahoma is one, actually pick incoming students who look like good candidates and spend 4 years grooming them to win top fellowships. They actually have courses for which they give course credit to prepare kids for these competitions. West Point does something similar, BTW.(It has courses to prepare cadets for competition, but it doesn’t choose the pool of candidates from which its applicants will be selected during freshman year as Oklahoma does.) </p>

<p>Add in the fact that the “contests” occur 4 years apart. I knew one of UChicago’s other Rhodes Scholars when he was in high school. He was a bright kid. He had a 1600 SAT (out of 1600) and other high scores. He was a wonderful writer. However, his grades were good, but not excellent. He was a bit of a slacker. He was wait-listed at Harvard, Amherst, and Swarthmore. He ended up at UChicago.
He grew up. He buckled down and worked and became a superstar at UChicago. Ironically, I’m not sure he would have had he attended Harvard. Part of what galvanised him was those wait-lists. </p>

<p>Michael Jordan was cut from a junior varsity basketball team. Did his coach make the wrong decision? Probably not. His skills weren’t good enough at that point in time. Again, getting cut inspired him to work on his game. Plus, his body matured. </p>

<p>I’m genuinely happen for newmassdad’s D that she got to have the wonderful experience of being both a Truman and a Rhodes Scholar. However, the fact that she won those honors as a junior and senior in college doesn’t prove that Harvard made the wrong decision when she was 17. </p>

<p>Maybe it did–I don’t purport to know. I’m just saying that the rules of the two contests are entirely different. In the case of the young man I know who was a Rhodes Scholar from UChicago and Michael Jordan’s junior varsity coach they probably made the right choice at the time. A lot of maturation occurred in the next few years.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, I probably should clarify my statement. Members of an admission committee DO KNOW why they accept or reject an applicant. Not all members might necessarily agree with the final selections, but they DO know how and why the class was defined. </p>

<p>My point, was that no member of THIS community, except for the people who ARE bona fide members of an admission committee, can do much more than idly speculating about the REASONS behind admissions and rejections. And, if that was not clear, my point was also about people PRETENDING to know about decisions based on a mostly irrelevant and peripheral participation in the process. This includes alummi, college counselors, high school GC, and interviewers.</p>

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<p>This bothers me as well. Chicago used to mean something different than cookie cutter Ivies and their imitators. Now I am afraid it will not be able to retain that unidentifiable “something different.”</p>

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<p>M aybe it’s because I’m relatively new here and don’t have any experience with the OP, but I don’t see any tinge of sour grapes at all in this post. I sort of assumed it was a timely post for those about to receive ED decisions not to despair if they don’t get into their top choice Ivy League school.</p>

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<p>I want to add to the congratulations to NMD on his daughter’s success, and I also agree that it is a timely story that should be shared at ED/EA time and at the end of March. It happens that I also know a student who applied ED to Yale from an elite HS…viewed it as her dream school…was deferred, later rejected and went to Univ of Chicago…where she has thrived. </p>

<p>However, I also agree with those who would have prefered a slightly different spin on the story and the follow up.</p>

<p>1)“…she at least knew she had some decent choices, so all was not lost. She had some OK choices, and chose University of Chicago.”</p>

<p>It is unfortunate that “decent” and “OK” are the adjectives used to describe the University of Chicago. It’s a description that one would only find on CC, and among high performers at some elite high schools. University of Chicago is well beyond “decent” and “OK”. </p>

<p>2) "They also say they select the best and all too many think the the best of the best get into the ivies and the ones that don’t are not the best of the best. "</p>

<p>This is not what the Adcoms say. They say they are trying to fit together a class. And most readily agree that there are development admits, “hooked” admits, etc. and that there are many “best of the best” that they are not able to admit.</p>

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<p>Will OP’s D apply to the Ivies for grad school?</p>

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<p>That may very well be. However, the bigger question is … OK, take an atmosphere where the Ivies are considered the sine qua non of success, the ultimate end-game, the measure of someone’s worth, the ultimate cocktail party announcement, etc.</p>

<p>People who think that way are, quite frankly – NOT sophisticated at all. The kind of person who doesn’t get that there are fabulous LAC’s in all parts of the country? That there are careers beyond management consulting and investment banking and other areas where the Ivies tend to excel? That smart people (and people who make a ton of money, if that’s the metric) come out of everywhere? That no college diploma matters if the person is unhappy or not a nice person or doesn’t know how to get along with people?
These people may be monied upper-middle class, but they’re not “sophisticated.” </p>

<p>So why would anyone give two minutes’ worth of thought to “impressing” people like that? Who CARES what they think, or if they think you’re a “failure” because your kid went elsewhere?</p>

<p>I don’t get the mindset of putting really unsophisticated, easily impressed people up on a pedestal and then thinking that it’s really important to impress them. And the kind of people being described – whose world revolves around a small handful of schools and one region of the country and only a select set of occupations – ARE unsophisticated and easily impressed.</p>

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<p>I completely agree with this sentiment. A world where U of Chicago is only “decent” or “OK”? Again, people who really think like that (if that is how the parents at NMD’s school thought) are so dumb that impressing them is just a complete waste of time.</p>