<p>That's a good suggestion, but this son is very emphatic that he wants a small LAC.</p>
<p>He LOVES the feel of the tier 3 LAC's we've visited, and when we visited a school in the next group up, the minute he got in the car said "it's too pushy and just more of the same 'most rigorous' stuff like high school" There was too much talk about grad school, research, study abroad, etc/--the kind of thing that most CC kids/parents look for, but that my son finds intimidating at this point in time.</p>
<p>I was quite surprised that the feel was different enough for him to pick up on, as he's not the most observant creature in the world.</p>
<p>It is the kid's job to pick, but sometimes I wonder how a teenager makes decisions. Many of our kids have worked hard in high school, become caught up in the competitive nature of college admissions and sometimes are blinded by the quest for admission to an elite, prestige college.</p>
<p>I believe academic rigor is a serious consideration, at least for those lucky enough to be admitted to their reach schools. The risk of outright failure may be low, but struggling to keep up and being under stress may not really fit all kids.</p>
<p>Even if the fear of failure doesn't influence a kid's college choices, it likely will influence the choice of majors.</p>
<p>An awful lot of students seem to pick their majors by a process something like the following:</p>
<p>"Well, I can't major in anything that has physics in it because I had trouble with physics in high school, so biology and chemistry are out. And I can't major in anything that requires you to actually understand calculus because I was really confused during the second semester, so economics and computer science are out. And psychology requires a statistics course, and that's more math, so forget it, even though I love psychology. What's left?"</p>
<p>"He wants to get an education and do well in college, but does not want to spend the next 4 years with kids who are prepping their grad-school resume from day 1."</p>
<p>I respect this preference, but I don't think you need to go to Tier 3 to get it. Just as an example, I spent a lot of time at Oberlin, and it's a world away from the hyper-amibitious atmosphere that I agree can be found at some elite LACs. Have you visited some of the other culturally laid back, but still academically respected LACs like Antioch, Bard, Hampshire etc.? You can build a great resume at those places, but you'd be swimming hard against the stream if you obsessed about the ranking of your future PhD program or otherwise acted like you care about the rat race.</p>
<p>It worked the reverse way for us. My daughter chose a smaller, more prestigious / more demanding school over a larger less-/less- school in part because she was concerned that she would have no margin for error at the larger school, and if she wasn't at the top of her class from Day 1 forward she would have a hard time getting good jobs / grad school, while at the smaller school its reputation would help overcome a few missteps.</p>
That sounds a lot like my son, and his performance was inconsistent at his first college. But then he became very diligent and competitive in the workplace, and did very well in a 3-year hiatus from college. Now he has transferred to a college that is much lower down the ladder in terms of selectivity and academic demands -- and continues to do the bare minimum for most of his classes -- but now is earning straight A's with that. But he is also working half time and showed me a letter of recommendation his supervisor wrote for him that's really amazing - he has taken a lot of initiative and really distinguished himself at work. Well, the letter of recommendation was in support of a merit scholarship that he has just been awarded -- so it looks like the easier college is a lot better place for him. He does enjoy most of his classes there, but I think his focus on work shows that he is not really the strongly "academic" type -- he'd rather focus on interacting with the real world. </p>
<p>So what I see is a kid who really has done the right thing for himself in terms of laying the foundation for his future career. He's gained a lot of real world experience, and while he won't have a prestige degree, he will graduate with a strong GPA and will easily find employment in his chosen field. </p>
<p>I don't think its a matter of fear of failure at all with him -- he has taken some big risks in terms of various responsibilities he took on at his jobs. I think with him it was a matter of motivation: school just doesn't do it for him. He recognizes the value of a degree -- but his heart really isn't in the academic life. </p>
<p>Anyway, I think parents should not assume that a kid's lack of interest in a higher ranked college is necessarily a matter of fear or unwillingness to challenge oneself. It might just be a different set of inclinations -- a less demanding academic environment can leave a lot more time open for other pursuits.</p>
<p>The thing is, a curve ball can be thrown to your child no matter where he goes to school .I'd say the probability of success is better in a smaller private college. All you have to do is hit one huge lecture hall and the teacher not fluent in English, and the course can be a nightmare.</p>
<p>I have not read any of the replies. Yes, our D has still not made a decision and fear of failure is one of the main reasons. She is a student who has worked extremely hard for A's. Not a great test taker so the SATs were average. She knows that her writing ability and probably her ability to read and comprehend 100 pages a week in college will stress her out even more. The possibility of attending comm college for a year has come up at this late hour.</p>
<p>"I'd say the probability of success is better in a smaller private college. All you have to do is hit one huge lecture hall and the teacher not fluent in English, and the course can be a nightmare."</p>
<p>I was thinking that the opposite is often true: at a little private college, if you want to study, say, British history, there may be exactly one professor who teaches every course in the field. If that one's a dud, or a jerk, or can't speak English? Too bad. Your options are to suffer through that guy's nightmare classes, to abandon your intended field of study or to transfer. (Yes, I speak from experience.)</p>
<p>At a comparable private school that's 10 times bigger -- imagine Cornell -- if you show up the first day and the course is a joke? Drop it or switch sections. Even if the class is required for your major, someone else may be teaching it next year/next semester, and in many fields, the university will offer several versions or tracks of required intro courses, each of which satisfies the requirement and each of which has a different professor. So you sample them and pick the best fit. At a big school, the stakes riding on the quality and compatibility of any one professor or class are much lower.</p>
<p>My D is struggling with this very question at this, the 11th hour. Although she is val, NMF, etc. etc., she questions whether her medicore public high school has prepared her for the work required at the two top 20 schools she was accepted to (not ivies). </p>
<p>We have tried to tell her she would do fine, but she was not convinced.
Add on top of that, the four year free ride offers from our stateU (with honors program) and from a small private school due to NMF looming in the background (none to very little $$ from other two). </p>
<p>One of the schools she was admitted to provided a list of parents of present students who agreed to let "prospective parents" and students contact them. I looked for towns the size of ours where the student had attended a public high school. I e-mailed these parents and received nine encouraging, and I will say, beautifully written replies. They were all very reassuring. A couple said their students had to play catch up for a few weeks, but things leveled out and they were doing great. They all felt with D's "credentials" she would have no problems. I think these correspondences did a LOT to ease her mind.</p>
<p>It is Thursday, and she really needs to decide by Sunday (due to NMSC deadline on Tuesday)! As curm. said, its the "kid's job to pick". And as my brother-in-law repeatedly tells my sister (who has a senior son who is leaning towards CalTech - curm. I just sent her a copy of your CalTech post) - "It's not about you, it's his choice." My sister says he's been saying that since kindergarten. Wise man!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd say the probability of success is better in a smaller private college.
[/quote]
That's where my son messed up on the first go-round. He is doing a lot better with a mid-size public, partly because it is less demanding overall, but I think for reasons similar to what Hanna described. He just has more flexibility and more options at the public school.</p>
<p>MidwestParent, I think what Kathiep said about personality is very important. My daughter is at a super reach (for her) college, where her SATs put her in the bottom quartile, and her public high school education was extremely weak for math and sciences, and not all that wonderful for everything else. But she's doing really well. But it sounds like Kathiep and I have the same family: my daughter is a perfectionist like hers -- even doing the same thing that she described, like going to see the profs every time she gets a B or a C on a paper to find out what she can do to improve. So her grades are good and she is very confident and doing well. I was worried because my d. also likes to have plenty of time for a social life -- and of course last spring when decisions were being made she had full-blown senioritis. But she really seems to have arrived at college ready to work and take full advantage of the opportunities in front of her.</p>
<p>So I think you can be sure that your daughter will do well at her reach colleges if she wants to -- I think the real issue is not what the student <em>can</em> do but what they want out of their overall college experience. So for example if a kid has EC's that she really wants to have plenty of time for, then maybe its better to opt for a college where she won't have to devote too much time to reading and studying; but if she is ready to prioritize academics, then being exposed to a more demanding environment really can be very rewarding. After all, our kids who went to mediocre public high schools never really have had the chance to experience a top-rate education -- so for some, it really is the first time they feel really excited and enthusiastic about going to class.</p>
<p>Some kids might have a better fit with a small Lac; others with a large U. That seems to me to be a different issue entirely. I think the issue which is often underestimated is academic rigor. On a separate thread about college grades, we discussed how the choice of majors can be important. Science majors often are demanding and may begin with some weedout classes. The level of academic rigor impacts all students and in many cases the science, math or tech students are hit hardest.</p>
<p>Calmom - You "hit the nail on the head" with so many things you said. </p>
<p>D is a perfectionist - just got her midsemester grades out of our mailbox. She has over 100% in most classes - it is her way to challenge herself in the less than stimulating environment she is in. She is more than ready to work, yet doesn't want to "die trying" at a college where the kind of grades she has been use to receiving are just not obtainable. She is in the upper quartile at both colleges (accepted at one ED), but still worries. I wonder if that is somewhat inherent in being female (hate to even think it is could be so). The (male) coach of the USA womens' soccer team said once that coaching males and females is very different. He said if you talk to a group of male athletes and tell them something that needs to be improved, they all look side to side, thinking it is the other guy, not them. If you do the same thing to a group a female athletes, they all hang their heads thinking they are the one that needs to improve!</p>
<p>You also said that kids at so-so high schools have never really been enthusiastic about school - one of the parents I e-mailed said the same thing. His daughter was NOT enthusiastic in h.s., but has blossomed in college. D said something funny the other night - "You know, I am NOT above going to a tutor in college!" We told her that we thought that was a wonderful attitude to take into your freshman year.</p>
<p>Thanks to bookworm for directing me to this thread.</p>
<p>I think the fear is a complicated issue. Sometimes it's justified, because it's definitely better to be in the top 10% at a school ranked 30 than in the bottom 30% at a school ranked 3. I think prefrosh weekends are a pretty good way to decide about this. If you talk to the people there and feel intimidated and like you're substantially out of your comfort zone AND the schol tends to have uninflated grades, then play it safe.</p>
<p>This is a big issue at Caltech, because people are afraid of the grade deflation and are scared they won't make it. I think usually these fears are unfounded, but it's important to keep goals in mind. If your goal is to go to a top graduate program in your field (especially if it's medicine or law), then you should go to the best school where you can get a 3.8+, and that might not be Caltech (or similarly hard school). But if you just want a great education and probably plan on getting a job afterwards, GPA is not a huge deal and you should just go to the place you like best.</p>
<p>The deep problem is that people don't know where they stack up against their future college classmates. One good way to fix this is to do summer programs, etc., with people who are thinking about the same schools you are. A four week or longer program really lets you see how you compare to others in interests and abilities, and then you're not going into college with no information about where you'll end up in the distribution.</p>
Ben, how many kids at CalTech fit the "just plan on getting a job" category? Maybe, "get a job at NASA". LOL. </p>
<p>And BTW, my D's comments about CalTech were not criticisms but compliments. Had she been a "get a job kid" and had y'all changed the ACT rule last year , she might have applied. </p>
<p>Funny story. My D used to be "blonde", now natural. When she was focused on playing varsity sports in college she was also looking at CalTech when it hit her- "Oh, God. If I go there I'll be the dumb blonde jock." She holds your student body in the highest regard. Literally, the highest regard. ;)</p>
<p>Most of the top colleges do a good job of nurturing students all the way through to graduation - so very few failures (and those that do leave, leave for health reasons, homesickness, financial reasons, parent illness, too much partying, change of goals, etc)... check out the graduation rates of the colleges and you'll see that most kids graduate on-time. If it was so tough you'd see a lot lower graduation rate. I checked out my DS's school to find out how the kids in his major do if they are not in the top of the class. Prof said that ALL the kids who graduated in his intended major this year and who wanted a job in the field, got one. :) Very reassuring, yes?</p>