<p>Many many students who think they are doing well in HS find they cannot succeed in college. New NYT article does a good job with this. I find it astonishing that 45% of Cal State students need remedial English.</p>
<p>"At Cal State, the system admits only students with at least a B average in high school. Nevertheless, 37 percent of the incoming class last year needed remedial math, and 45 percent needed remedial English."</p>
<p>And at community colleges:</p>
<p>"Michael W. Kirst, a Stanford professor who was a co-author of a report on the gap between aspirations and college attainment, said that 73 percent of students entering community colleges hoped to earn four-year degrees, but that only 22 percent had done so after six years."</p>
<p>“You can get into school,” Professor Kirst said. “That’s not a problem. But you can’t succeed.’’</p>
<p>What I found most depressing was that kids who'd gotten straight As and/or graduated early were found to need remedial English and Math. There's some big disconnect between what high schools are teaching and what colleges need.</p>
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<p>There's some big disconnect between what high schools are teaching and what colleges need.<<<</p>
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<p>That's just it. This isn't the colleges' fault, it the high schools. But, people just don't want to blame the high schools.</p>
<p>And, just last year, there was an uproar here on CC when California wanted to deny high school diplomas to kids who couldn't pass the graduation "exit exam".</p>
<p>I work at a CC and many folks suggest I let my children attend there, since it would be at no charge so long as I work there. I have to bite my tongue. My kids are in the gifted program, top 10 % of their classes, weighted classes, high test scores etc. A plurality of incoming freshman at my school need remedial language arts and math (these developmental classes aren't even covered by their FA since they are nontransferable). Only about 25% of the students actually transfer to a 4 yr university; many are in certificate-only career courses (nothing wrong with that, but obviously these food service, automotive and nursing assistant students have different goals than my to pre-professional oriented kids). The majority of honors sections at my school seem to cancel each term; apparently no one enrolls as these sections have no minimum enrollment--they are held for even 2 or 3 or 4 students--so apparently they can't find 2,3, or 4 honors-level student for some of these freshman courses. My kids will head for college with 1+ semesters' worth of credits taken in summers and evenings (when 4-yr students visit or other HS students and adult learners take classes) at this school while they were 16-17 (in addition to any dual credit classes thru their HS); the instructors and other students couldn't believe they were just in HS. Some of the instructors are excellent class-room teachers, dedicated to their subjects and their students, but they must have the patience of Job to try to teach the majority of students. I know college is expensive, but my personal sense is that any student, barring personal or home situations--health, for example--that prevent it, would be better served at a 4 yr institution, whether it be to experience the diversity, the social life, the maturation process of being away from home, or simply to elevate the level of fellow students. Surely any student who can be an 'honor' student should be elgible for some type of financial aid to make a 4-yr school, even the state college down the road, affordable. I didn't spend a decade in college/grad school or decades in academic and non-academic jobs so my children could attend a cc, esp after having experienced one.</p>
<p>Huzzah to you, bookmom, my sentiments exactly. We live in a community which sends very few of its high school graduates to four-year universities, believing that since ccs cost so much less, it is just as well to study there for the first two (or three, or four) years and then transfer. Problem is, as you noted, is that so few students actually do transfer and complete their degrees. Especially for those kids who excel in high school, a four-year college or university is what they deserve. And early planning is what makes it happen.</p>
<p>"...reliance on the gpa is so problematic."</p>
<p>With all due respect, I would think the problem goes a little deeper than this. Whether our kids go on to college or not, it's our duty as adults to see that our kids (by "our kids" I mean the youth of our country) are able to read, write, have some idea of the history of western civilization, and think logically.</p>
<p>When kids are graduating with B averages from the high schools in this country and yet cannot do the above, we have a much larger problem than a disconnect between high school gpa's and college admissions, it seems to me.</p>
<p>I have no quarrel with what you've written, HH.</p>
<p>But how is a kid who is pulling all As to know that s/he is not prepared for college? And in states where the top 10% get automatic admission to the state uni, how to guarantee that the straight A student is prepared?</p>
<p>In a previous thread, I was taken to task for suggesting that a high school diploma ought to be worth the paper it's printed on. Perhaps you will remember your contribution to that thread.</p>
<p>My son has two friends in the community who are good soccer players and who had hoped to go to a local liberal arts college. Both sets of parents decided instead to send them to the nearest community college. "$20,000" was their reason. The boys won't play soccer at the cc, and they will miss out on a lot of other things that you eloquently touched on, bookmom. I feel fortunate that my kids are able to go away for the 4-year college experience.</p>
<p>Was that the thread on which I was expressed my dislike for the new SAT? I still dislike it for many reasons. But I do most definitely agree that a high school diploma ought to be worth the paper it's printed on, which is definitely NOT the case at the present time for far too many kids. In fact, I'm beginning to wonder if some "college" diplomas are worth the price of the paper they're printed on! I think recently Tom Wolfe said that these are dark times for education in our country, college level and k-12. I think he's right. I predict a big sea-change way down the road, but not in time for this generation.</p>
<p>Re the California Exit Exam - It tests students at a maximum of the 10th grade level (the typical higher-achieving student could pass it in 8th grade) yet some students still fail and cry foul that they have to take a test to graduate. The test should consider its name and test at the 12th grade level and if kids fail, they shouldn't be allowed to graduate. I agree it should be worth the paper it's printed on. Failure to do so requires too many CCs to have these remedial course to try to finish the job that the high schools should have done.</p>
<p>What a sad article. It's also an indictment of education in this country. These young adults didn't start failing math at the CC -- they probably got lost somewhere in fourth grade. This is one reason we kept our kids in Catholic schools over the years -- I knew that they would at least learn the fundamental skills. When it came time for high school, I wanted them to attend the most challenging one we could find (and afford!) and then I encouraged them to take the hardest courseload, especially in math. As a graduate of public schools, I don't blame the schools or the teachers. (and obviously, there are some wonderful schools out there) But when the teachers are tasked with so many disciplinary issues, and so many non-essential academic classes, how can kids really learn critical reading, math or writing skills needed for a four year college?</p>
<p>There seems to be some connection with many of the threads on CC. We talk about kids having summer homework, the relative merits of standardized testing, AP or no AP classes. I feel that there really should be a pretty standard curriculum of what every student in the country should be able to accomplish in order to finish elementary and then high school. The whole mess that we call College Admissions is so amorphous because there are so few standard ways to assess accomplishment.</p>
<p>Not all kids belong in a four year college, although I believe most could handle it with proper preparation. But every student should be able to read an article and analyze it, write a clear paper of a few paragraphs, and solve basic algebra and geometry problems. It seems that so many kids are just buying the Brooklyn Bridge as far as a high school education is concerned. They go to school, get the diploma and can't do the most basic academic work. These kids have been cheated, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Despite it's many problems - one thing you can say for NY is that its system of Regent's exams really does mean that most graduates have been exposed to the same material and have at least some knowlege of it - though with 65% set as the passing grade, I'm not sure just how much they know!</p>
<p>I remember when I was young, there was a great debate raging about the City College of New York (CCNY). In the 50's and early 60's, it was free to any city resident who graduated with I believe a B average, and students got an excellent education. Then during the turbulent 60's, CCNY removed all entrance requirements and was free for any graduate of a city high school. In a few years, the diploma became worthless. Then the administration wanted to reinstate one admission criterion - the ability to read at an 8th grade level. The outcry was astounding - it was elitist, racist, etc., etc. Finally, the criterion was dropped. </p>
<p>I remember watching the news reports and turning to my mother, confused: "I thought that you needed to read at the 8th grade to get into the 9th grade."</p>
<p>My wife just graduated with an RN from a community college. It was more selective, actually by quite some ways, to get into the program than to get into Harvard. I mean that literally. In fact, there were students with degrees from fancy four-year colleges who wanted to become nurses who were rejected because they had only a 3.7 average in the 9 prerequisite courses. Many of the rejects from the program ended up in four-year nursing programs like that at the University of Washington which are much easier to get in. Now that she's graduated, her first job out pays better than $50k plus benefits. </p>
<p>I taught for many years at a community college. I know how poorly prepared the vast majority of students were. I also know that it had very little to do with their natural intelligence, and everything to do with the appalling levels of preparation with which they entered, and the environments in which they found themselves growing up. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, school itself (including our fascination with testing) is resulting in cognitive retardation on a mass scale:</p>
<p>Somebody suggested the problem started in 4th grade. I'd guess it was earlier. Just how much respect and remuneration do you suppose the average first-grade teacher in this country gets? (Remember, first-grade is where most of us are introduced to reading, writing, and arithmetic, and I'd posit that's where our attitude towards schooling is set.) The teaching profession (I almost choke on "profession," because typically elementary teachers aren't seen as professionals) is hopelessly hierarchical. "Oh, you ONLY teach first grade. Well, someday maybe you can teach high school." And so on.</p>
<p>How many of us will pay $40,000 for a year of college, but blanche at the thought of paying for anything at all for an excellent elementary education?</p>
<p>I'm just throwing this out for consideration, ready to be flamed now.</p>
<p>If we're talking about causes, the public schools are certainly the first place one should look to lay blame, but let's try to understand where the public schools fit in.</p>
<p>If you've ever read de Tocqueville, you'll know that there is a strong, anti-intellectual strain in the US. It has not left us. There are parts of this country where success in school is so strongly, socially discouraged that it's a wonder that any child escapes these places to graduate from college. A few do, and more power to them. But most end up doing manual labor, small-town clerk jobs, beauty shop work, and the like. A few become mechanics and plumbers and welders and do OK for themselves. Then their children go through the same cycle of negative social status for success in school.</p>
<p>If you teach in the public schools in places like this, you are like a salmon swimming upstream. Your best efforts are often wasted on those who place no value on learning. I suppose you must hope for that occasional academic adept who will buck his/her classmates and do well.</p>
<p>I suspect the function of giving As and Bs to kids who need remedial help comes from a de facto curve. When all you get to see from students is glass beads, a zircon can look just like a diamond.</p>
<p>Yes, I actually have read de Tocqueville back in the days ... but a more contemporary icon of this anti-intellectualism speaks to us often from the White House. The man was never a great intellect, but his handlers got him elected by deftly emphasizing his boobery. A man of the people. A moron. A guy who can't utter a single grammatically correct sentence. That's who we (I use the term loosely) elected. That's who "we" are.</p>
<p>In support of our public schools, let me add a couple of things:
1. Colleges & High Schools rarely, if ever, communicate in a meaningful way with each other as to the skills that matriculating students need.
2. Teachers often have such a large student load, that is is next to impossible to expect them to give the needed time & attention to each student.
3. Teachers often deal with an incredible amount of parent pressure over grades. The most highly regarded teacher in my kids High School rarely, if ever, gives A's. Parents, especially those worried about getting into the "right" college complain to the high heavens, concerned about rank, gpa, etc
As an aside, a very wise 5th grade math teacher once told me that students who work really hard just make C's & B's make the transition to college better than the "easy" A students because they have had to develop a work ethic.
Just food for thought.</p>