<p>A very interesting and enlightening article:</p>
<p>Islam is going through a rough time now, but there was once a time when there were great universities in Baghdad and Toledo (Moorish Spain) while philistine barbarians ran amok across Europe. Arabic medicine was lightyears ahead of anybody else on Earth, and ironically, Jews who faced dire persecution from Christians found tolerance in Muslim nations. </p>
<p>History is cyclical. Don't forget that.</p>
<p>nbachris: Sure. I still don't care about the whitewashing attempts to make it seem like what Islam is doing NOW is okay. Islam in the past may have been better - great! Christianity has done very very very terrible things - guess what, I'm not a fan of Christianity either, but they aren't beheading Americans and suicide bombing Israelis NOW.</p>
<p>You people who were so upset that I called these rioters savages:</p>
<p>PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF THEM NOW. THEY THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT.</p>
<p>Mahras 2: In your original post, you clearly wrote against any type of meddling by the United States.</p>
<p>Anyways, I agree that the U.S. should "meddle" more responsibly in the affairs of the ME by supporting moderate factions within Arab nations. However, Eastern Europe during the collapse of communism is completely different from the current ME for several reasons. Most Eastern Europeans were devout Christians that greatly opposed the purely secular and atheist dogma imposed on them by the Soviet communists which caused the grand majority of individuals in these nations to support revolutionary causes that promised to topple these despotic regimes. </p>
<p>On the contrary, most Arabs are Muslim and most Arab nations are theocratically controlled. As a result, the notion that rebelling against the Islamic regimes of the ME equates heresy prevails in Muslim society. Thus, I hardly believe that Islamic extremist regimes will ever be toppled in the ME because most Middle Easterners support theocratic governments that suppress women, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and other trademark rights of the Western world.</p>
<p>How could I have forgotten SA whhich has a 25 percent unemployment rate and the GDP per capita is a mere $12,900? <em>Insert serious sarcasm here</em></p>
<p>everkingly> Looking purely at underemployment rate and GDP/capital will give a very skewed view of the real conditions there. Case in point: Bangladesh has a 2.5% unemployed rate which looks very rosy but once you actually go to the nation and look at the overall condition you realise that most people barely scrape a living (they are one of the most poverty ridden countries in the world). A 12900 GDP is also significantly higher than many nations of the world (its 71st out of 232 countries). I also suggest you focus on IMF PPPS which accounts for difference in price and cost of living instead of simple dollar conversions of income.
Actually, I believe that Islamic extremist regimes can be toppled. You must keep in mind that at one point the Islamic empire was the most forward thinking society. It was after the 16th-17th century or so that they became increasingly close minded (as their powers dwindled and new rulers replaced the existing ones). So, this widespread notion that Islam has a fundamentally a very narrow minded view on the world is false. It typically takes economic failures and problems to allow for a population to supplant existing rulers and replace them with ones with new viewpoints and ideas. I wouldnt expect that to happen anytime soon as the economic picture of the ME is pretty rosy (you must keep in mind that for much of history people in the ME were "dirt" poor). But let the oil run out and the problems begin, and those oil shark rulers (who btw barely live by Muslim ideals) will have some unrest in their hands.</p>
<p>
[quote]
nbachris: Sure. I still don't care about the whitewashing attempts to make it seem like what Islam is doing NOW is okay. Islam in the past may have been better - great! Christianity has done very very very terrible things - guess what, I'm not a fan of Christianity either, but they aren't beheading Americans and suicide bombing Israelis NOW.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I also suggest you understand that the number of muslims in the ME is actually very small compared to the overall number of muslims in the world. There is a 190MM people in the ME (I am going to say for this illustrations purpose that its 100% muslims). There is 1.5Bill muslims in the world. So thats 12-14% of all the muslims in the world. So when you say muslims are beheading Americans and suicide bombing Israelis keep in mind that the other ~85% of the muslims in the world (nearly 20% of the world's population) doesn't think in this manner or do the acts that you mentioned.</p>
<p>Mahras2: Bangladesh might have a 2.5% unemployment rate but its GDP per capita is a pathetic $2,100. Learn to present all of the facts and not just some of them. Although I agree that IMF PPPS is a valuable tool for economic examination, most economists mainly look at GDP, GDP per capita and the unemployment rate in order to judge a nation's economy. In addition, a country that is 71st out of 232 countries in terms of GDP per capita means nothing when you realize that nearly 200 of those 232 nations are considered impoverished.</p>
<p>Yes, economic troubles can urge mass rebellions. However, there is always a philosophical or religious component that must be in place to spur people to rebel against their governments. The fact remains that most Middle Easterners are more willing to live in poverty rather than topple their theocratic governments. Since Muslims in the Arab world are extremely devout, Muslim clerics play an essential part in any political uprising. For the most part, Muslim clerics greatly support the current evil theocratic regimes because, in many cases, they are either government officials or greatly benefit from a regime that persecutes heretical views and executes converters and non-Muslims. Thus, Muslim clerics have to lead the charge to overthrow the undemocratic regimes in the ME.</p>
<p>In your reply to nbachris, you state inaccurate facts. There are not 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. There are only 1.1 billion Muslims which is a difference of 400 million (about twice the population of Brazil). So Muslim Arabs account for about 17-18% of Muslims. I agree that most other non-Arab Muslims do not commit terrorist attacks. However, let us remember that Arab Muslims are the leaders of the Muslim world. All Muslims pray towards Mecca which demonstrates the importance of the ME as the cornerstone of Islam. Also, the massive protests in Europe and in South East Asia only occurred after Arabs began to protest. </p>
<p>In addition, if there are so many peace-loving non-Arab Muslims in the world that do "live by Muslim ideals", then why have only a few come out against these protests and terrorist attacks (I consider the ransacking of embassies and violent threats terrorist attacks). I have never heard a Muslim cleric call these violent protests uncalled for. There have been a few (five at most) that have said that violence solves nothing. To date, no Muslim cleric has ever apologized for September 11 or any other terrorist attack.</p>
<p>Let's face it, Muslims secretly do desire the destruction and murder of non-Muslims and seek to overrun the world with Islamic regimes!</p>
<p>
[quote]
All Muslims pray towards Mecca which demonstrates the importance of the ME as the cornerstone of Islam.
[/quote]
We pray towards the Kaba, in Mecca, in the ME. We do not bow down to the people in the ME. They are not responsible for our actions, nor we theirs. Just because there is corruption in the ME, it does not mean that it somehow spreads to every Muslim in the world.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In addition, if there are so many peace-loving non-Arab Muslims in the world that do "live by Muslim ideals", then why have only a few come out against these protests and terrorist attacks (I consider the ransacking of embassies and violent threats terrorist attacks). I have never heard a Muslim cleric call these violent protests uncalled for. There have been a few (five at most) that have said that violence solves nothing.
[/quote]
What are you talking about? This is completely wrong. Many, many imams and clerics around the world speak against it to their communities and in their mosques. Maybe it's because only a few have made the news. Maybe it's because an imam or cleric who encourages terrorism is more media-worthy than one who speaks against it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To date, no Muslim cleric has ever apologized for September 11 or any other terrorist attack.
[/quote]
That's because Muslims did not perpetrate 9/11. Anybody who would fly planes into a building and kill thousands of innocents is by NO means Muslim. Therefore, the rest of us Islam-abiding Muslims have no obligation to them or those acts. We are just as much victims as you are. Moreso even, because now the rest of us (and our religion) have a tarnished reputation. The "Muslim" imams and clerics who WERE responsible for 9/11 will not apologize because they think they are right.
On the other hand, I DO think that the whole Muslim community needs to be more vocal about their protests against these acts. The rest of us have not spoken out as much as we should, I agree with that. But that does NOT mean we condone what the terrorists do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's face it, Muslims secretly do desire the destruction and murder of non-Muslims and seek to overrun the world with Islamic regimes!
[/quote]
This must explain why the large majority of Muslims is in fact, good friends with non-Muslims. I thought I had no such intention, but I guess you're right... I'll go out and kill all my friends tomorrow.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In your reply to nbachris, you state inaccurate facts. There are not 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. There are only 1.1 billion Muslims which is a difference of 400 million (about twice the population of Brazil). So Muslim Arabs account for about 17-18% of Muslims. I agree that most other non-Arab Muslims do not commit terrorist attacks. However, let us remember that Arab Muslims are the leaders of the Muslim world. All Muslims pray towards Mecca which demonstrates the importance of the ME as the cornerstone of Islam. Also, the massive protests in Europe and in South East Asia only occurred after Arabs began to protest.
[/quote]
</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Islam%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Islam</a>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country</a></p>
<p>The true figure is not as you say it 1.1 billion. Now more importantly, the fact that you say that Arab Muslims are the leaders of the Muslim world shows ignorance. Muslims pray towards Mecca because thats the location of the Kabbah. Islam is not a centralized religion with any "master of the religion" type of figures thus leading to a great variety of practices and preachings. </p>
<p>
[quote]
In addition, if there are so many peace-loving non-Arab Muslims in the world that do "live by Muslim ideals", then why have only a few come out against these protests and terrorist attacks (I consider the ransacking of embassies and violent threats terrorist attacks). I have never heard a Muslim cleric call these violent protests uncalled for. There have been a few (five at most) that have said that violence solves nothing. To date, no Muslim cleric has ever apologized for September 11 or any other terrorist attack.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This link should suffice disproving this "five at most" number you note: <a href="http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's face it, Muslims secretly do desire the destruction and murder of non-Muslims and seek to overrun the world with Islamic regimes!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Of course! Even though I went to Catholic school for a year, even though nearly half my friends are Jewish,naturally I want to kill all non-Muslims! On a serious note, Christianity and other religions all seek to "overrun the world" with their respective regimes. And I would not say that "murder all non-believers" is a muslim only phenomenon.</p>
<p>If I were a Muslim I would be pi*sed off that all of these idiots are going around burning down buildings and making my religion look bad.</p>
<p>If a bad cartoon of Jesus was published in an Egyptian paper, I would probably be offended but I would shrug it off. I wouldn't throw stones at all Muslims I saw or burn down the Egyptian Embassy. </p>
<p>BTW- The Iranian President has announced that he will publish cartoons making fun of the Holocaust.</p>
<p>How stupid is he going to look when the Jews do nothing about the cartoons? What does he expect them to do, take after his country's example and go on a crazed rampage? Ain't going to happen.</p>
<p>GoldShadow and mahras2: I am just so ignorant to believe that Islam is a religion based on violence when Muhammed (May his soul rot in Hell) looted caravans to expand his coffers, formed armies, and ransacked villages and cities in order to impose his will on the Arab world. Do you really believe the lies of a despotic ruler who killed all those that opposed him? How can you believe in false prophets and despicable clerics that had everything to gain by creating the Islamic empire? Open your eyes and use your mind!</p>
<p>Islam isn't a religion. More like a form of government, like communism.</p>
<p>As a Muslim, I am deeply hurt by the American view of Islam. Islam is a very peaceful religion. We are taught to respect people, no matter what their beliefs are, and not harm themselves and even ourselves. The terrorists are not Muslims at all as they claim to be. They are even inhumane. We, real Muslims, are taught not to commit suicide or murder. We are taught not to beat each other. We are taught not to give threats. We are taught not to hijack or steal. We are taught not to use the weapons. We are taught not to kill people. I'm hurt that Americans associate the terrorists with Islam. That is wrong. The terrorists are sick and out of their minds. They are cold-blooded and deserve to go to hell. They're not humans. True Muslims are the opposite of terrorists: They love people and want peace. I'm so furious that the terrorists gave our religion a bad name.</p>
<p>Islam is a religion. There are more than million Muslims in the whole world, even in US and Canada. We have our own background, history, and beliefs. You are talking about the government in the Middle East, not the religion. Although my family is from Middle East, I am not happy with it. We don't feel safe there because of all the wars and brutal government that has nothing to do with religion. Men just want power over women, so they find excuses related to religion to make their actions "justified." That's not right. True Muslims treat each other equally, regardless of their race and gender.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Islam isn't a religion. More like a form of government, like communism.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yeah, and Christianity was, and is, so respectful of the separation of church and state. <em>puke</em></p>
<p>
[quote]
Let's face it, Muslims secretly do desire the destruction and murder of non-Muslims and seek to overrun the world with Islamic regimes!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Uh, which religion's the one who set sail for other worlds seeking mass conversion, rooting out heretics, etc.? </p>
<p>
[quote]
To date, no Muslim cleric has ever apologized for September 11 or any other terrorist attack.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why should they have to take responsibility for the actions of a few extremists? And there have been various Islamic figures that have condemned the actions of terrorists. </p>
<p>Hey, the priest at my local parish hasn't come over to my house to personally ask for forgiveness of his people's bombing of abortion clinics and sexual abuse of altar boys. He's the devil himself!</p>
<p>I simply can't figure out a better response than nbachris. I am humbled.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yeah, and Christianity was, and is, so respectful of the separation of church and state.
[/quote]
Are you confusing religion with morals?
[quote]
Uh, which religion's the one who set sail for other worlds seeking mass conversion, rooting out heretics, etc.?
[/quote]
100's of years ago. We're talking about today buddy.
[quote]
Why should they have to take responsibility for the actions of a few extremists? And there have been various Islamic figures that have condemned the actions of terrorists.
[/quote]
Why should Denmark have to take resonsibility for a newspaper? Should Denmark and all of Europe take resonsibility for a couple of journalist/cartoonists? Most of them have and said that they were sorry.</p>
<p>I insist on bringing up history because some of you act as if there's something fundamentally rotten with Islam, which explains its state today. Religions go through phases, and if we condemned certain faiths for losing their path once in a while, Christianity would have died out long before Islam. </p>
<p>Imagine yourself in the shoes of a Baghdad citizen sometime in the Golden Age of Islam. You must've been thinking the exact same thing that Christians think of Muslims today, except the roles are reversed.</p>
<p>Islam is NOT a religion of peace. <a href="http://www.thereligionofpeace.com%5B/url%5D">www.thereligionofpeace.com</a> <a href="http://www.memri.org%5B/url%5D">www.memri.org</a></p>
<p>LOL, people you have to read this: <a href="http://www.enduringvision.com/archives/muslim_clerics.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.enduringvision.com/archives/muslim_clerics.htm</a></p>
<p>quality. :D</p>