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How can hs's allow students to take 5 or 6 AP courses at a time and then claim that they are taught with the same rigor as a college level class?
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<p>I don't understand this argument. College students frequently carry a 15-18 credit semester load.</p>
<p>IB diploma students take as many as 6 courses roughly equivalent in intensity to an AP course at the same time. It's not impossible, although it is quite time consuming.</p>
<p>My daughter, an IB senior, took 3 IB higher level courses, 1 IB standard level course that also prepares students for the AP test in that subject, 1 regular AP course, and one other academic course this year. That's roughly equivalent to 5 APs. It's do-able for a well-organized kid who is willing to put in the time.</p>
<p>There's a difference between rigor and pace. A number of AP classes are taught for a full year in high school, but only cover a semester's worth of material.</p>
<p>That's not the case with the A.P. History courses.</p>
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How can hs's allow students to take 5 or 6 AP courses at a time and then claim that they are taught with the same rigor as a college level class?
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<p>Don't most college students take 5 or 6 classes in the course of a 4-month semester? So for a HS student to take 5 or 6 AP classes over 8 months is quite do-able. My D took 12 AP classes in her Junior and Senior years combined. It was not watered down at all, very rigorous, lots of independent work etc. The only reason she took all these classes was that at the end of 10th grade she had exhausted everything else in the HS and wanted/needed the challenge.</p>
<p>Some AP courses are equivalent to a full-year college course. AP U.S. History, AP Biology, AP Chemistry, AP Economics, and AP BC Calculus are examples. </p>
<p>Other AP courses are equivalent to a one-semester college course. AP American Government and Politics, AP Comparative Government, AP Psychology, AP Environmental Science, and AP AB Calculus are examples.</p>
<p>At many high schools, courses of both of these types are taught in as full-year, single-year courses. This means that the first group is taught at a true college pace, while the second group is taught at a much slower pace.</p>
<p>There are other arrangements, however. For example, I know of a school system in New Jersey that teaches AP U.S. History as a two-year sequence. This means that the course is being taught at a slower-than-college pace. On the other hand, at my daughter's Maryland high school, AP Comparative Government is taught as a one-semester course. This means that the course is taught at the same pace that it would be taught in a college.</p>
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How can hs's allow students to take 5 or 6 AP courses at a time and then claim that they are taught with the same rigor as a college level class?
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<p>Maybe because the high schools are aware </p>
<p>a) AP tests are given to college students as part of validation studies from time to time for each test, so that we really know how well college students do on AP tests, </p>
<p>b) college students sometimes take the "same" course in less time, as noted in several replies above, </p>
<p>c) college students are often dealing with the stress of living away from home, a stress not commonly encountered by high school students, </p>
<p>d) college students may be drinking and carousing--or working to support themselves--to a time-demanding degree not as characteristic of high school students taking AP courses, </p>
<p>e) colleges and high schools vary as to their levels of rigor, and some high school courses really are tougher than some college courses (which is the original historical reason for the AP program), </p>
<p>f) and, most important to my family, some young people of high school age thrive best when they are challenged at a genuine "college level" even if they are not formally enrolled in college. </p>
<p>High schools should allow students to take challenging courses on a voluntary basis because there is nothing meritorious about dumbing down the curriculum. If other high school students would rather not take that number of AP courses, fine, and if other high school students don't want to start taking AP courses until they are juniors, that is certainly a commonplace choice. But there is no good reason to make a blanket rule that all high school freshmen should be banned from all AP courses nor for a rule to restrict AP courses to fewer than so many per semester. </p>
<p>The AP testing program is older than I am, and I expect it to have a bright future. The current course audit process is an effort to keep dishonest high school teachers from labeling a course "AP" without even considering which courses have associated AP tests, and without even looking at the published AP syllabuses. The College Board is committed to retaining the one feature of the AP program that is plainly superior to the IB program: the AP program is not tied to attendance in any particular school or class, because AP testing is explicitly open to homeschoolers and self-studiers of all descriptions. </p>
<p>My son is a freshman (ninth grader), a little bit younger than most freshmen because of what time of the year he has his birthday. He took, through a university-based program and two joint classes arranged by our homeschooling support group, three classes taught to AP syllabuses last year (eighth grade). He didn't take the AP test in any of those subjects. This year, he took three courses with an AP designation, and took the corresponding tests along with two other AP tests that reflect self-study he did to round out his knowledge from another, non-AP course he took this year. When I compare what my son has been doing in ninth grade with what I studied in the same grade, I'm very happy he has had the opportunity to learn interesting, challenging subjects rather than kid stuff. There is still plenty for him to learn in his remaining high school years, but a challenging curriculum in ninth grade lays a foundation for learning those things later.</p>
<p>Like tokenadult, I have no objection to qualified students taking AP courses as early as ninth grade, but I do see a need for caution in one respect: APs should not be allowed to displace essential parts of the high school curriculum.</p>
<p>Selective colleges want students to take courses in all three of the fundamental sciences -- biology, chemistry, and physics. They also want them to study one foreign language to a reasonably high level -- the equivalent of at least three and preferably four high school years. </p>
<p>However, we often see kids who post on these boards who chose to take APs in other subjects in place of these essentials. They say things like, "I dropped Spanish after Level 2 in order to include more AP courses in my schedule to impress colleges. Is this a problem?" </p>
<p>Yes, it may be a problem. </p>
<p>Kids who want to take AP courses need good counseling on their course selections, but they don't all receive it.</p>
<h1>19: "If your school charged $110.00 then they made a bunch of money off of people."</h1>
<p>Yes, I paid $440 for 4 APs this year. So, someone actually made money out of students in an avarage public school.</p>
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At many high schools, courses of both of these types are taught in as full-year, single-year courses. This means that the first group is taught at a true college pace, while the second group is taught at a much slower pace.
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<p>Actually, this has to be modified, given the different lengths of the college and high school "full year." A semester at many colleges is 13 weeks. A full year's worth of classes is thus 26 weeks. For non-science classes, this would mean three hours of classes per week, for a total of 78 hours of class time. The school year, in MA, must be 180 days of instruction, or a total of 36 weeks of five days. Total class time for AP classes would thus be 144 hours. </p>
<p>Things are different for science classes. In some college science classes, students may be expected to spend 3 hours in labs in addition to 3 hours of classm plus a weekly section. That would come to 7 hours per week for 26 weeks, for a total of 182 hours. In high school, AP science classes tend to be double period in order to accommodate labs. In our school, AP classes were held 4 days a week, so the yearly tally would be 288 hours ( somewhat less for seniors, since they graduate early).</p>
<p>The pace of AP classes is thus far far slower than the pace of a corresponding college class. This is why many students who did well in AP classes may struggle in college.</p>
<p>I'm not sure that the pace is all that much slower (except in double-period science courses).</p>
<p>High school classes are often interrupted or cancelled because of assemblies, field trips, fire drills, lockdown drills, standardized testing, visits from the guidance counselor, and other such nonacademic things; this is much less likely to happen in college. Also, high school teachers, even in AP classes, devote much more class time to assessments (tests, quizzes, student presentations) than college professors do. Time spent on assessments is time that is not spent on instruction. In addition, if the AP course is being used as a substitute for a standard high school course, the teacher may be required to add extra topics to the course that are included in the state-mandated high school curriculum but not the AP curriculum (for example, in my community, where AP American Government and Politics is offered as an alternative to the state-mandated government course, the teachers must teach a couple of weeks of state-mandated material on state and local government in addition to the AP curriculum). Finally, in schools that use a conventional September-to-June school year, kids don't get a full 180 days of instruction before the AP test because the AP tests are given in May -- often, quite early in May.</p>
<p>Okay, subtracting 8 weeks' worth of classes for the shorter time to exam and two weeks of AP exams comes to 144-48 or 92 hours. Versus 78 hours of class time in college (Many humanities and social sciences classes actually meet twice a week for lectures with one additional hour for discussion section). </p>
<p>Whatever is done in high school, quizzes, tests, etc... DOES make for a slower pace of instruction and far more support than in college. The barrage of quizzes and student presentations in high school may make for less instructional time but it also prevents students from goofing off and puts less pressure on them to absorb new materials at a fast pace. Quite often, college students' first sign that they are not absorbing the materials comes with the midterm exam.
My S took intro-Bio in college while his friends took AP-Bio. The textbook was the same. The pace was very different, as was the level of support provided to students.</p>
<p>Im wondering if AP bio is an anomaly.
My D took bio in 9th grade and Marine bio in 10th, - although her school has more AP classes than any public school in the state, they have opted not to offer the AP bio class, my impression was that it wasn't rigorous.( they do offer AP chem, but while my D likes Chem, the teacher for AP, is dull)
( the Marine bio class, was easily as rigourous as a college course)</p>
<p>Some of the courses are year long, some half year, but I agree, half the time they are having assemblies or testing, additionally in our high schools, substitutes teach lots of classes. ( they don't have lockdown drills, but they do have lots of lockdowns & assemblies, my god they have a lot of assemblies and half day/early dismissals, and dont' forget when you have to get out of school early for sports competitions- it really messes up your 5th-6th period class) Teachers are out of the room for meetings, trainings, vacations, and frankly, while I am not dismissing the work that a sub must do, the actual continuity of the class suffers quite a bit.</p>
<p>I would hope though that the AP classes go over material more slowly. High school students are also involved in more outside activities than many college students, not to mention they are younger ;), and this is a good time to go slower and develop study skills. I like the breadth of material of AP, but it is really a shame that if you don't take AP, but are still wanting to be challenged, you are in class with kids who are acting out/ left behind, and generally sidetracking the class.</p>
<p>I am not talking about badly run AP classes. They may be common but they are still not the norm against which to judge college classes. My S AP-classes were not disrupted by lockdown or fire drills, nor did they have substitute teachers, assemblies etc... The classes did not seem to suffer from discipline problems, either. College classes can also be disrupted by holidays or by profs going out of town to deliver a lecture or getting laryngitis or a host of other problems.</p>
<p>I used AP-Bio as an example, but I could have used AP-Physics or AP-Chemistry just as well. Same kinds of time.</p>
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I would hope though that the AP classes go over material more slowly. High school students are also involved in more outside activities than many college students, not to mention they are younger , and this is a good time to go slower and develop study skills.
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<p>My point, exactly. AP classes are NOT college classes. S took both kinds at the same time, and he knows the difference.</p>
<p>I think each time we discuss this topic, we all realize there are no "universals". Some AP classes are equivalent or superior to college classes, some are not. Which are and which aren't depends on the high school and college being compared. Unfortunately, it may even depend upon which teacher your son/daughter is assigned or the mix of students in the class. Not all teachers are equal - in high school or college. </p>
<p>Some AP classes taught by some teachers in some high schools can be more rigorous than those offered at the most elite of colleges. Others, in the same schools, can a total waste of time.</p>
<p>^^ I agree. I was limiting my comments to the <em>pace</em> of instruction. However, pace is extremely important. Acquiring knowledge is a different experience if it's dispensed as a trickle or from a hose.</p>
<p>I agree with post 35. AP courses, including as they do a number of variables, are not standardized except for the exam itself. School differences, teacher differences, class differences, etc. I'm glad that the AP option is available, but also glad that the courses are under scrutiny, & hope that they continue to be individually evaluated -- a process which should start at the high school, long before it gets to the Collegeboard or to an admissions committee.</p>
<p>In an ideal system, I would love to see one "other" advanced course for every AP-designated course offered at a high school. I actually do know of a private school that has reached this goal. Making this possible for publics as well would do much, imo, for elevating the quality of publics. There is a significant issue of available teachers, but that could be overcome with respectable pay for such teacher recruits. (I know, In My Dreams.) The teaching talent is there; the motivation is not without other factors (not just salary but other factors such as conditions, autonomy, etc.) Sorry, I know this is slightly O/T because the OP asked about AP's specifically.</p>
<p>Marite, I have seen AP courses which dispense with a fire hose and college courses that are a mere trickle in comparison. There is no "one size fits all" when comparing AP programs.</p>
<p>^^ I was thinking of courses at top universities. My S took AP classes and classes at Harvard. I was basing my comparison of the pace on the school year at Harvard and at an MA school, using the same curriculum (intro-science vs. AP-science) and exactly the same book. They were covered in much less time at Harvard than in the AP class. </p>
<p>Of course, one can spend a whole semester covering the French Revolution, which would be covered in a week in a AP-Euro class. But that is comparing apples and oranges.</p>
<p>Some students (or their parents) also report retaking a subject in college, even after doing well in the AP class. This rather baffles me, as college students are not expected to retake a class (unless they did poorly, in which case, they head to summer school). They are expected to have mastered the subject sufficiently to move on to a higher level if they want to stay in the same field. It seems to me this betrays a lack of confidence in the degree to which AP classes prepare the students in particular topics (especially Calculus).</p>
<p>Marite, I think calculus is a very different scenario. You learn it, then move on to the next level. Now take AP USHistory, for example. The amount of source material that a class can delve into is virtually limitless. I mean, aren't there about 80 or 90 Federalist Papers alone? Thousands of documents to research & interpret & debate. Good high schools recognize that an AP curriculum can be a mile wide and an inch thick. They choose to go into greater depth because they want to explore further. Not because a "college" pace would be overwhelming.</p>