The Harvard Crimson: Filings Show Athletes With High Academic Scores Have 83% Acceptance Rate

The stats of H admits only shows that aspect. It’s not like you can clone the whole picture from one cell. And many kids with, say, a lower gpa, may have missed an A in some class that matters less to their work. Scores alone can’t show the rest of the working strengths.

Except for my hesitations about some recruits, of course academic strength matters (in the mix of things they look for.) To think otherwise is to risk falling into, “He only got in becaue he’s…” fill in the blank. And you don’t know.

Lol, if an alien decided, from just viewing some published metrics, that he knew what the goals were, I’d say he wasn’t thinking on the quality level H expects, was just looking at superficials apparent to him. “Oh, they have xxx% rich kids…they only want rich kids.” Sae goes for hs kids and families who assume. And yes, this relates to the lawsuit.

How do you even presume who’s “minimally qualified?” Without seeing more than stats summaries.

(And so, I keep nagging kids to look deeper, learn what they can, be the sort who can try to put the pieces together. That’s the sort of thinking a tippy top will like to see. Not the waving of a hand that it’s all PTBarnum hogwash. Put another way, “You want it? Then be it.”

Except, of course, those problematic athletes- not all athletes.)

And if the alien were to ignore the data of who was admitted, listening to vague, unsubstantiated claims that instead that there is some deeper, hidden something that he just couldn’t comprehend he’d be a gullible fool.

If Harvard wanted fewer rich kids, it has the ability to admit fewer rich kids. If Harvard valued intellect above other traits, it has the ability to prioritize academics instead of using it as one sixth of a formula that clearly weights other factors more prominently.

This is looking deeper. The stats are what they are. People are putting the pieces together.

Most of this isn’t illegal (other than the racial discrimination portion), it’s not even necessarily immoral, it’s just unseemly that the facts point to a different mission than Harvard publicly purports. If Harvard wants to be primarily a social influencer, it might do well to just own that instead of blowing all the smoke about other things and then acting huffy when people point out that the facts show something different.

So, is the solution to call crapshoot or rigging? How is looking at superficials “deeper?”

So they have some rich kids. How does that mean they are less qualified? SO they have some proportion of URM, how does that prove thet are not capable. See how this gets circular?

“It’s more than stats.”
“But the stats show…”

Academic strengths is not solely about stats.

Not even remotely a crapshoot or rigging. Not at all. The issue isn’t that it’s random - the issue is that the college claims to be looking for one thing when it is in reality looking at entirely different things. It is coy about the things that it truly prioritizes because many of them would be considered politically incorrect, offensive or - in the case of preventing the class from being too Asian - downright illegal.

Of course academic strength isn’t solely about stats. The issue is that Harvard admits using a formula. The formula has a fairly low priority based on stats and many of the “other” factors that are important have nothing to do with academics.

Other than sports recruiting, what discrepancy can you point to, between what they say and what their agenda really is? How do you call it, without knowing what those others offered?

Point me to someting that proves H undervalues academics, just because it’s not all they decide based on.

This stuff isn’t roccket science, to me. I think, if more sat back and pondered, from what any tippy tops says, what picture/pieces they look for, it becomes clear (or starts to) what else, besides academic might.

If anyone is so certain it’s tilted, why even bother applying? If you have the jump on that better sureness, why enter the fray?

“If anyone is so certain it’s tilted, why even bother applying? If you have the jump on that better sureness, why enter the fray?”

Red herring. None of this discussion points to whether an applicant should or shouldn’t apply. But it does relate to how possible it is for applicants to self-assess their chances. Whether you view that as important or an issue of fairness depends on your point of view.

The larger issue is whether the college’s admission’s policies are aligned with their advertised mission. It’s a topic that is of interest to students considering applying and Harvard alums. The subissues related to potential discrimination are of interest to taxpayers.

Agree that none of this is rocket science. As my engineering friends will tell you, rocket science is mostly based on fairly outdated and uninteresting tech but it’s at least no secret.

Look, my stance comes from experience. My college has a lot of rich kids, a measure coming from top preps, its share of recruits, a healthy chunk of legacy applicants, its amount of URM, low SES, and more. It’s located in a particular environment, offers some things every top college does and some not. It’s campus is of a sort, the particular community offers a context. Like most, it looks for a sort of “spark,” alongside accomplishment, and both depth and breadth in appropriate activities a kid took on, certain drives, openmindedness, and more. It’s a tough vetting. For every applicant. Do we give rich kids extra value? No. As Am kids less value? No.

Anyone who works with kids can be inspired. I admire the vast bulk of them. But this is not high school, it’s not applying to transfer to a better hs. It’s the college leap and we’re talking tough colleges to get into. Not every high stats kid presents well. AND, your app pakage is really all you have (plus any interview.) Try to learn how to appropriately make your best self presentation.

But again, my issue is the pull coaches have

I agree with your points in post #287. I also think it’s important to acknowledge that a key component of making a best self-presentation is knowing what the colleges are looking for. As this thread shows - what the colleges say they are looking for, what applicants believe the college is looking for and who exactly is admitted are three distinct and often different things.

It’s understandable that people want to examine and discuss how the process works.

Below is how Harvard describes the student body it wants. Seems pretty clear, and fits with the admissions process described in the lawsuit. Maybe it’s not the vision some applicants wish Harvard had, but it’s hard to read this passage and conclude that academic stats are Harvard’s only or always primary consideration in admissions.

——-

“The Harvard Student
While Harvard has long been a leader among universities, it is equally committed to developing leaders among people. Thus, its enrollment is not comprised of 6,700 “geniuses.” Instead, the University prides itself on attracting the best all-around young individuals—those with the energy, innovation and creativity to enliven a classroom.

Some students show unusual academic promise through experiences or achievements in study or research. Others are more “well-rounded” and have contributed in many different ways to the lives of their schools or communities. Still others could be called “well-lopsided,” with demonstrated excellence in one particular endeavor. And many students bring perspectives formed by unusual personal circumstances or experiences.

The end result is an undergraduate population drawn from every state and many foreign countries, one that brings together a grand diversity of social, ethnic and economic backgrounds.”

@politeperson You know that’'s not the only place they discuss what they look for, right?

At this point, I’m going to be quiet for a while, see if anyone wants to go back to the athlete topic.

@lookingforward oh definitely, but I can’t cut and paste everything :slight_smile: I think their position is pretty consistent even where the language varies, and it’s that academic stats aren’t the only things they’re looking for in a class of admits. Throughout this thread I see comments that a system for recruiting athletes is somehow contrary to their mission. It clearly isn’t, and they tell us that in many places.

Again this shows a college saying something and doing another:

"Thus, its enrollment is not comprised of 6,700 “geniuses.”

It may not be but with a 25/75 of 1470/1570 and 33/35, geniuses will feel pretty much at home among a lot of smart kids, or at least good test takers. If 1520/34 is the typical score of an average H student, there are very few students walking around with a 1200 who see the world differently.

“grand diversity of social, ethnic and economic backgrounds”

That is a big lol, Harvard’s kids come from enormous wealth, connections and similar social backgrounds.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments @milee30, and perhaps the pendulum at H (and probably most of the highly selective holistic schools we love to dissect on this board) has swung too far towards valuing more subjective and nebulous criteria in admissions. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the students at H still stand at the top of the academic pyramid based on secondary school record and test scores. We can also infer from the litigation data that the matriculating students at the bottom of the stat’s are predominantly URM’s and athletes. With respect to athletes, football has the most allocated spots (30/class) and is allowed the greatest deviation from the general student body AI. I got this from a recruiting website. It may be dated, but it certainly will give us a general idea http://www.tier1athletics.org/category/ivy-league-academics/academic-index-ivy-league-academics/:

"Football recruits in the Ivy League have a slightly different set of rules than recruits in the other sports. An Ivy League football coach can recruit up to 30 players and those recruits must fall into one of 4 academic bands based on their academic index. Band 4 is the highest, which seems counter-intuitive, but that’s how they label it. A Band 4 athlete must have an Academic Index that falls within 1 standard deviation of the Academic Index of the general population of students at that school. So if the general AI is around 220, the Band 4 guys must be around 207. 8 of the coach’s 30 recruits must be Band 4. Next is Band 3 which goes down to 2 standard deviations off the mean index. Approximately 13 of the 30 recruits must be Band 3 or higher. That’s an index around 194 or better. (Standard deviations can’t be calculated precisely without knowing the exact distribution of all scores which is not public knowledge- so these benchmarks are educated guesses). 7 more recruits can be in band 2, which is 2.5 standard deviations. That’s around 180. Lastly, the coach is allowed to bring on 2 players that are at or above the 176 index floor. So it’s:

Band 4: 8

Band 3 (or higher): 13

Band 2 (or higher): 7

Band 1 (or higher): 2

Total: 30"

It’s been speculated that basketball, hockey and lacrosse also have more leeway while there is little to no boost for “country club” sports. After all the whole body of recruited athletes (this does not include high stat’s walk-ons) must be within 1 standard deviation of the general student average so there have to be a good number of recruits with AI’s at or above the general student average to even out those well below.

So, for the bulk of the admitted class (2000+) excluding athletes (±200) and URM’s (±400), we are looking at selecting roughly 1400 kids out of a pool of probably 10,000-15,000 applicants with stellar stat’s. There are going to be a limited number of academic slam dunks (national or internationally recognized award winners) and a few slots for the extremely generous donor class and the scions of the “famous”, but for the most part H will be choosing from a pretty select pool of extremely high achieving applicants. For this group, where an extremely high academic hurdle has been met, they have the luxury of considering other institutional needs (artistic talent, leadership, service, SES, resonating story, etc… and yes legacy) that often cannot be objectively quantified. In this environment, there are going to be thousands of academically deserving kids who get rejected because it all boils down to limited spots for too many qualified candidates.

I do think there is reasonable room for debate on whether too many slots have been granted to athletes in sports which are overwhelmingly white/high SES based. I counted 20 men’s varsity and 20 women’s varsity sports on H’s athletic website this morning, which included sports such as fencing, golf, sailing, skiing and squash.

Gotta love putting all 400 URMs in the bottom percentiles. Smh

The point of the 200 and 400 numbers had to do with calculating the remaining pool of applicants of 2000 acceptances. There is another thread on race where some posters have gone into detail on the data now in the public record where people can draw reasonable inferences and conclusions on academic and other criteria of successful candidates by groups as a whole.

“The Harvard Student
While Harvard has long been a leader among universities, it is equally committed to developing leaders among people. Thus, its enrollment is not comprised of 6,700 “geniuses.” Instead, the University prides itself on attracting the best all-around young individuals—those with the energy, innovation and creativity to enliven a classroom.

Some students show unusual academic promise through experiences or achievements in study or research. Others are more “well-rounded” and have contributed in many different ways to the lives of their schools or communities. Still others could be called “well-lopsided,” with demonstrated excellence in one particular endeavor. And many students bring perspectives formed by unusual personal circumstances or experiences.

The end result is an undergraduate population drawn from every state and many foreign countries, one that brings together a grand diversity of social, ethnic and economic backgrounds.”

This is a perfect example of how the PC description of the holistic process makes only vague references to superlatives that most students believe could apply to them yet avoids specific mention of certain key but non-PC things that the college apparently values.

If you can read that and guess that 12%/200 admissions slots are set aside for recruited athletes, then you truly are a genius and probably should be at a top selective college. But maybe not Harvard, unless you are one of said athletes, are a URM or are already connected through legacy, development prospects or family that’s staff, because that’s the majority of who is admitted. Heck, looking back at the statement of what Harvard is looking for, athletics aren’t even mentioned or implied which is interesting given how important they appear to be in the admissions process.

Again, it’s a private institution and most of those criteria aren’t illegal, so it’s well within the rights of the college to use this criteria. But if this is how it truly is, own it and don’t misdirect. It’s just wrong to act as if the students who are rejected simply didn’t do the right type of research to understand the secret handshake or weren’t excellent enough or didn’t present themselves correctly. The reality is that Harvard (and almost every top selective college) is purposefully coy about who it wants and how it selects them on purpose. If it weren’t mysterious about the process, applications would drop as many of the prospective students start to make accurate assessments of their chance at admission. Those who are merely geniuses but understand since they lack skill at a sport, or the correct skin color or a connection to the school are likely to begin to understand that they are competing for less than 100 slots for their particular gender and that those 100 will need to be spread across the US, making their individual chance even smaller… and are likely to start considering alternative options.

Would Harvard close or even be materially impacted if this happens? No. It has enough of a reputation and is widely desired enough to be just fine, even if it only admitted athletes and legacies from now on. But it would likely have a bit less choice among the mere geniuses and also have to deal with public fallout from the reaction of the unwashed masses realizing their type isn’t welcome. It also might put an end to the current social signaling that a Harvard degree represents. If the public recognized that although the Harvard admits aren’t dumb by any means that the primary drivers of their admission was athletic talent or family connections, the assumption that Harvard grad = genius would be diminished.

TL;DR Preach on @milee30

If you’re a high-achieving HS kid, you examine the admissions materials provided by the ivies and their peers. My kid went through it recently and found that what @Deepblue and @milee30 noted above is true: there’s a lot of Oz-like posturing and holistic handwaving but few honest facts about how the sausage is made.

If you naively click on Harvard’s “what we look for” link because you want to know what Harvard looks for, you’ll find a weird list of vague rhetorical questions: Are you a late bloomer? What sort of human being are you now? I’m not making these up. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/application-process/what-we-look

Keep clicking and you’ll come to some moralizing bromides from a former admissions director about how “personal qualities and character provide the foundation upon which each admission rests.” This has been discussed on a fun CC thread about Harvard’s losing battle to maintain its moral pomposity in the age of social media: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1996861-undone-by-social-media-harvard-rescinds-admissions-p1.html) Spoiler: Harvard’s defenders eventually retreat to the argument that the admissions materials advertised to potential applicants aren’t intended for potential applicants.

At any rate, what’s galling to many is that Harvard, whose motto is Veritas, won’t own their own criteria and process, i.e won’t discuss the basic facts and questions suspected by smart HS students and highlighted by @milee30 and @Data10 and others: how exactly do they arrive at the same racial composition for every class every year? How exactly do they reconcile their lofty paeans to character (whatever that is, they won’t say) with the fact that more than 40% of all white admits are legacies, dean/ director’s list, or z-listers? Are Harvard’s admissions officers late bloomers? What kind of humans are they?

The university has been so successful for so long that its success has become an argument for everything it does. But it’s good for everyone when the wizard starts to sweat.

You really think they owe that to you?
That you need a Rosetta Stone?

Here’s what I think Harvard does owe applicants: Enough information about the admissions process so that a student could make an informed decision about whether an application has sufficient chance of success to be worth the cost of applying. Obviously, the decision will have to be based on probabilities, rather than certainty. While the raw odds are a guide, some applicants really have no chance. If the actual odds of admission are one in a million, a lot of people would save the money (though people buy lottery tickets all the time). If the true odds are roughly one in ten, many people would decide to give it a try, but probably many others would decide to save the money. This decision is going to be different for different applicants, depending on how much the applicant wants to go to Harvard and what the application cost means to the family [also taking into account the discounted (or free) application fee for some applicants].

An acquaintance of mine won a case in small claims court at the point of admission to medical school, when he was able to show that he had zero chance of admission at a particular medical school (based on information discovered after the fact, and not generally available beforehand), but he had paid the application fee. I believe he got his application fee back. A minor victory, but still a victory. His record was strong enough that he was admitted to multiple medical schools.

I clicked on one of the Harvard admissions links that LadyMeowMeow provided, and my immediate reaction was, “Wait, I am an Asian-American athlete behind a chain-link fence?”

Where will I be 25 years from now? At the time, I might have projected I would be in a basement office in a university. Wow! Clairvoyance!