I think even the doubters “get” the cachet certain Ivies have. You don’t pick a college, though, based on a secret society or the number of successful others. You need to have “it,” yourself. Nor Doonesbury or a book.
“To H or Y people only one game matters and just one win over their rival is a successful season.”
Well that’s applicable to a whole bunch of other schools like Michigan and Stanford. There’s nothing unique about that, in fact it’s more intense for UM fans when they lose to OSU or Duke fans when they lose to North Carolina.
Again, to me, the issue is not the importance of athletics, people aren’t going to change their opinions on that. It’s these schools not admitting that a certain number of slots in the incoming class are allocated to them, making your chance even lower than the published numbers.
I can tell you from experience that while losing to OSU would keep Michigan from considering their football season a success, beating OSU is not nearly enough to be considered a successful season on its own. You can’t compare Ivy League to Big 10 football - it’s a completely different playing field - figuratively speaking.
Being a Yale alum and good friends (including a law school roommate) with many H alums, I can guarantee you there is a wide spectrum of enthusiasm for sports in general, ranging from those who believe the “dumb jocks” who got in make a mockery of the standards of the school to those who live and die by at least how The Game turns out each year. The competition with H and vice versa goes beyond sports, but The Game is pretty central. I would say of those who care about sports, the focus beyond football is on crew (nationally competitive, 2018 IRA national champs), hockey (nationally competitive, 2013 national champs), basketball (don’t forget we beat Baylor in 2016 and gave Duke good scare in March Madness), lacrosse (2018 national champs) and baseball. Once you get past those sports, the attention goes down pretty fast except for a narrow fan base imo, at least that is true of my circle of friends, which includes 2 former major sports captains and a couple of other Yale and Harvard varsity athletes. I would also note that Yale only has 33 varsity sports teams vs Harvard’s 40, so certainly there is room to debate whether eliminating a few more sports with admissions preferences would hurt the “aura” of the school.
Harvard, Stanford and Chicago are all elite schools. All have successful sports programs. But those programs are TOTALLY different.
Stanford is full monty D1, scholarship, Power 5 conference college sports. Chicago (which way back when was the dominant football factory of the Big Ten conference) plays at D3 which is the lowest level in college sports. Harvard and the rest of the Ivies play (for most sports) in the lower tier of D1 according to their own set of rules.
None of these schools even try to compete with each other in sports, even though they compete intensely against each other in every other area (faculty, student admissions, USNWR rankings, etc.).
Harvard intentionally plays with one hand tied behind its back in D1. So long as Harvard football is competitive with Y football and P football, it matters not how bad Harvard football is as compared with Stanford football.
Given all that, Harvard (if it wanted to) could easily reduce the admission tips for its football team from 20 per class to 10. As long as the rest of the Ivies did the same thing, no one would know or care. Harvard’s competitiveness would have fallen even further behind where Stanford is. But no worries since they never play each other.
Many (like ex Princeton President Bowen) have long argued that the Ivies should keep their sports but dial the admission preferences back a bit from where they are now. Given that the Ivies have already decided to opt out of full monty D1 sports, he finds the current Ivy sports rules overdone for what the Ivies are trying to accomplish.
Seems like the Ivies, though, like it the way it is. Kind of curious, but their choice to make obviously.
I never have thought of H in the same environmental vein as Chicago, Mudd, MIT etc. I do think H strives for the strong bodies, strong minds future leader mentality adding a few academic only focused students into the mix every year for diversity. I can understand if a candidate’s primary chit is high gpa and test scores they may be disadvantaged at some colleges but that is the beauty of the US system, there is variety and choice of campus environments where a particular set of talents may be advantaged. Athletically I have always found it odd that the Ivy League is considered Div. 1…probably closer to Div II capability in totality although every athletic ranking is sport based and there are plenty of Div II and III schools that are powerhouses and compete at Div I level in a particular sport. eg. Northern Michigan Div I hockey, I think kids have to choose where they apply thoughtfully and as been articulated ad nauseum here there is no one perfect place.
- Byron White was a Supreme Court Justice for 31 years, and was the Court's senior Justice when he retired. He got his law degree from Yale Law School. He was a three-sport varsity athlete at the University of Colorado, runner-up for the Heisman trophy, and played football in the NFL. Through the 1970s, he regularly played pick-up basketball games with clerks and other court employees on "the highest court in the land" -- a small gym/basketball court on the top floor of the Supreme Court building.
- Chief Justice John Roberts was captain of his high school football team. I don't know if he played at all as an undergraduate at Harvard. He graduated in three years, summa cum laude (which really means something at Harvard, or did back then), which suggests that whatever predictions could have been made from his high school record and testing, he did not underperform them.
- The New Mexico federal judge who issued the ruling that the Trump Administration is relying on to withhold ACA payments to insurance companies is, of course, not a Supreme Court Justice, but he's a pretty impressive person. He was Editor-in-Chief of the University of Virginia Law Review, and he clerked for Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell. He was considered a leading candidate for appointment to the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals. Anyway, among other things he was captain of the football team at Yale.
motherofthreeboys- Once again I just don’t think you understand. You name U of Chicago, MIT, and Mudd. First of all only MIT is remotely a peer of Harvard though it lacks Harvard’s overall mystique. U of Chicago is a great school but not in the same grouping as Harvard or Yale. Mudd isn’t even on the radar and unknown to most people. This isn’t to say it’s not a superb school but come on it’s only the third highest ranked college in the Claremont system and has negative mystique. It’s hard to really explain the experience of going to H,Y, or today S but it’s sort of like diamonds. There are many expensive fine diamonds but only one Hope, Star of Africa, or Orlov diamond. They are special. If your kid goes to one of these schools every time the name comes up almost every person has the same reaction. Wow you go to Stanford you must be so special meanwhile their friend says they go to Notre Dame or any of many fine schools and the person yawns and says oh thats nice. If the student says Amherst or Pomona they think its the state school, Williams often brings a vague recognition and any other LAC name triggers a bewildered stare. For the most part it’s silly since there are many fine schools but historically H and Y have a special brand that oozes prestige, accomplishment, and leadership at a level far beyond all the other schools. I’m sure some of you have watched the show Billions. In this show Yale is a big part of the script and numerous meetings take place at the Yale Club in NYC. Take a look at this link and then compare that to even many other top ten schools. One of the other things most people don’t know is just how much graduates of these schools help and favor other graduates of these schools in hiring and promotion. What they say is oh you are one of us and believe me they mean it. On Wall St they hire their own and even help them live together to share expenses. While great schools, Duke, Dartmouth, Northwestern, or Brown have nothing that even comes close to H or Y. This is precisely why all those blue bloods on the east coast send their kids to prep school and fight like crazy to get their kids into one of these schools.
It boggles me to elevate some college to such a lofty realm, without claiming it as opinion.
Wow, Yale is named in Billions. And Doonesbury.
Maybe if Princeton had just won a national championship, he’d have a different opinion. I think Yale is thinking things are just right, that the recruiting is perfect, that there is plenty of room in the acceptance pile for athletes and geniuses, and some of the applications could be in both piles. There might even be a legacy in there too.
Say- I think you have to distinguish between people who watch Billions and those that actually live in those circles.
HYP undeniably are universally recognized. However when Brian Moynihan the CEO of Bank of America sits down with Jaime Diamond CEO of JP Morgan I dont think their Brown/Tufts alumnus status is relevant to the conversation. When David Rubestein who founded the hedge fund Carlyle Group has dicussions with Leon Black who founded Apollo their Duke/Dartmouth educations dont make them any less “special”.
Informed and well educated people recognize that there is more than one hope diamond when it comes to education, while those who watch Billions naively believe the show to be fact not fiction.
Well @say I guess I just live in a different world than you but that is OK. Perhaps that was true for my generation…my closest friends who went to prep went to H,Y, Dartmouth and UofM because it was what you did in their families but their kids went to different unis by choice even though the H and Y legacies were accepted. I think it is not the multigenerational legacy kids that covet Harvard as much as an aspirational thing with many of today’s kids and parents. It is a superlative uni with the total “college” experience including for sports minded kids and name cachet for certain areas of the country and in certain industries as it always has been.
@SAY Yep that’s it.
@momofthreeboys MIT is in the same class as H/Y/P as in, during a conversation you say you went to H and the other person went to MIT. Harvey Mudd is an extraordinary school (but hardly known by many-not a household word).
I do agree that multigenerational kids whose parents went to the top elite schools are not as interested as first generation superstars who want the prestige that these top schools bring. And U of M ( I think you mean Michigan) is not thought of in the same class at all. Dartmouth is well know in certain industries. Prep school kids are at a disadvantage in some respects and a big advantage in other respects. Many don’t want to follow Daddy/Mommy into the same fields.
The thing is, H/Y and P will open doors and are known worldwide. This is the reason many legacy kids will go elsewhere for undergrad and yet go to one of the tippets top schools for graduate studies. They have seen the benefits via the parents.
And I’m going to guess that you didn’t go to Harvard because they don’t add in a few academic kids each year for diversity. They actually start with the best pool of candidates bar none and get to pick and chose. Most of the strongest US candidates apply. Those who don’t are often going into specialized fields and will end up at MIT, Caltech etc. But many still apply because they want to know if they have the goods. There are many many great schools in the USA. We are very lucky. That does not mean that they are all equal when it comes to getting a job or getting an education.
@skieurope I think it may be time to close this thread.
MODERATOR’S NOTE
Nah, it’s going OK, more or less.
I tend to allow a bit more leeway in the cafe. So discussion that at least somewhat tangentially related is fine so long as it does not devolve into debate (which it has not yet).
That said, discussion of which governor went to which non-Ivy college is too far astray, so I’ve deleted those posts. Discussion of why I, or any other moderator, should or should not close this thread goes against ToS, so those posts I’ve also deleted.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
Nothing. Also having nothing to do with this thread - HY makeup of SCOTUS. Also having to place in this thread, or any other on this site - posts that beigin, and I paraphrase, “UserX, you obviously have no concept of reality.” Per the forum rules: “Our forum is expected to be a friendly and welcoming place, and one in which members can post without their motives, intelligence, or other personal characteristics being questioned by others. Members who post in a manner that makes other members unwelcome or uncomfortable, or who conduct themselves in a manner in any way detrimental to the College Confidential community, will lose posting privileges.”
http://www.collegeconfidential.com/policies/rules/
My post above saying I give some leeway should not be interpreted as the thread is a free-for-all. So 11 posts that were added after my last post have been deleted.
Missed all fun. Again.
The thread is about H and athletes. Athletic, smart, leaders seems to be the profile that H likes. Yet many kids compete for the smaller number of slots that are open for kids who don’t fit that profile. My point is I agree with people who point of that there are other tippy top unis that have different preferred profiles. I also think many kids apply aspirationally with or without favored attributes which is fine but then eyes wide open about your odds of acceptance. As a parent if you have a kid who finds their tribe at Brown or Chicago or somewhere else you probably aren’t going to sulk and wring your hands if they don’t go to your alma mater.
“Last time I looked, there’s no varsity athletes at those law schools. Or any other law schools either.”
Come on @JHS.
Law schools do not sponsor varsity teams. Almost all law school students would be ineligble under NCAA rules to participate in university varsity teams. Maybe you could squeeze in one year of elgibility but, as practical matter, no law students participate in varsity college athletics as athletes.
There are of course many law schools students who participated in varsity athletics, glee clubs, student newspaper, debate and other activities as undergrads. They play lots of intramurals in law school. And a few college athletes actually work as assistant coaches of the college varsity teams while in law school.
So yes, Byron White was a CU varsity athlete before law school. Never played for Yale though. So yes, John Roberts played HS football. But not at Harvard (College or Law).
“Once again I just don’t think you understand. You name U of Chicago, MIT, and Mudd. First of all only MIT is remotely a peer of Harvard though it lacks Harvard’s overall mystique.”
OK, Say, let’s go with Stanford, Harvard and Williams. That should meet your prestige requirement.
Stanford plays its sports at the 10.0 level. Harvard probably (for most sports) is at about a 6.0 (low D1, high D2). Williams is probably a 3.0 (top of D3).
So long as the rest of the Ivies did the same, no one would care if Harvard dialed it up to 7 or down to 4. HYP would all still be on a level playing field. And they stil would be worse than Stanford and better than Williams. Which is OK since they don’t try to compete much with each other in sports.