Club sports definitely vary from school to school and even sport to sport within a school.
Crew/rowing can be club/all walkon (everyone welcome) or not. Everyone can row, but it’s a hard schedule.
There can be soccer or volleyball, a level below varsity but not much below, often,and very competitive.
Some sports are not recruited anywhere - like Ultimate. Or Quidditch. Very physical sports with great athleticism, not many coming out of HS with those specific skills.
I do not think club teams are ever recruited, could be wrong. If I am not wrong, the very competitive teams that excel despite the inability to recruit would be a great example of how sports could work in a less recruit-favored admissions system.
And @twoinanddone did not say that all club sports DID have tryouts and rigorous practices. Some do, some don’t. Men’s volleyball is another example of a sport that can be very competitive at many schools and involve tryouts and national tournaments . Some of that is because there are very few NCAA men’s programs, while there are 100’s of women’s programs .
“What would Harvard look like - how would it change, good and bad - with non-recruited varsity teams (meaning great athletes would still get a tip similar to a very talented violinist or debater), or even if it just fielded a large array of competitive club and intramural teams?”
Harvard could not unilaterally disarm for its varsity sports. But there would be very little effect on Harvard if the changes were implemented at the Ivy League level.
The Ivy League conference basically exists for the sole purpose of defining among its member schools its own way of doing college sports. Such as no athletic scholarships, no bowl games, the Academic Index system. Ivy League teams are mostly NCAA Division 1 squads and comply with NCAA D1 rules, but then they also abide by additional Ivy restrictions.
To some extent, what you suggest already exists. The number of permissible athletic admissions “tips” are less than the number of players needed to fill out the full roster of each team. If a coach brings in 10 kids a year, he may only have six tips. So the other four kids have to get admitted the same way debaters and poets do.
If they wanted to, the Ivies could decrease (or increase) the number of tips allowed. They could raise (or lower) the bar of the Academic Index. They could start giving athletic scholarships to move up competitively and compete with Stanford, ND, Duke, Vandy and NW. They could drop down from D1 to D3 if they wanted to move down competitively and compete with schools like UChi, JHU and WUSTL.
So long as Harvard is competitive with Yale and Princeton, in most sports (maybe not hockey or lacrosse) it matters not how much worse Harvard is than Alabama or Notre Dame.
“Men’s volleyball is another example of a sport that can be very competitive at many schools and involve tryouts and national tournaments . Some of that is because there are very few NCAA men’s programs, while there are 100’s of women’s programs.”
Mens lacrosse is another one. Due to title ix and other reasons, the number of NCAA D1 mlax teams is much smaller than NCAA D1 wlax teams. So there’s a very structured and competitive (tryouts, some modest recruiting, serious practice and workout requirements) nationwide mens club lacrosse league. My kid played a couple of years on a decent NCAA D3 lacrosse team, then played for a high end club team after changing schools.
His club team was much better than the D3 team. Probably equivalent to a high D2 or low D1 program. But way way below high end D1 teams.
The posters above quite obviously did not attend H or Y and completely misunderstand the significance the top Ivies place on major sports. The famous 1968 game remains a major event in the lives of the alums.
If you want to understand the mentality I would recommend the movie Chariots of Fire. The scene about Harold Abrahams getting a lecture from the Cambridge Dean telling him not to look like he’s trying so hard and then later the pride they show when a “Cambridge Man” wins the gold medal in the 100 meters. This is exactly how things still are at H and Y. Sports is important and will always be important. These are full bore type A competitive people who have run this country for over 200 years. Outsiders will probably never fully understand. But they will never stop recruiting athletes because it would irreparably harm the culture and legacy of the top Ivy schools. Surely you haven’t failed to notice that every SCOTUS justice is from Y or H. This is not a coincidence. It’s also why these schools are so much higher in prestige than any state school or LAC. These days S has joined the club hence HYPS as the elite of elite in colleges.
Agree. Harvard and all the Ivies are getting the students they want by recruiting athletes. If they didn’t recruit and let all teams go to walk-ons, they soon wouldn’t be competitive even with other Ivies. Somehow all the teams would become unbalanced and Cornell might stay high in lacrosse but fall in tennis or golf to the point where it is not competitive. A golfer who might have gone to Cornell will now go to Stanford or Georgia Tech.
As long as they stay competitive, the really top athlete might pick Yale lacrosse over Duke, but they aren’t going to give up the sport entirely and go to, say, Columbia.
I don’t think the Ivies care about the donations from the old hockey players or worry about a former swimmer not giving annually. They do want the vibe of the alums being happy, wanting to return to campus, talk about the schools when they are on Wall Street or when they are on vacation. There is a reason homecoming is held on a football game weekend. They want the buzz.
But with the exception of a few niche sports (maybe lax, rowing and hockey), it doesn’t matter how good or bad the Ivy League teams are. So long as they can play competitively among themselves in the Ivy League.
By forming the Ivy League, the member schools have intentionally adopted a much lower level of play than what Duke, ND, Vandy, Stanford and NW have. But a much higher level than what UChi, JHU and MIT have.
So long as all the Ivies did it, it would be totally fine to dial up (more athletic tips) or dial down (less athletic tips) the level of competitiveness. The Ivies are mostly off on their own already in almost all sports.
The Ivy League does not participate in post-season play in American football, but it does participate and have automatic bids in men’s and women’s basketball post-season tournaments.
“I don’t think the Ivies care about the donations from the old hockey players or worry about a former swimmer not giving annually.”
Yes, at least Cornell does. Athletics is important and their athletic program heavily relies on donations to fund their programs. There is a fundraising campaign every year where all athletes solicit donations from past donors, alumni, friends and family. All teams compete against each other to see who can raise the most money in different categories…they make it fun. Anyway, we’ve recently had two Cornell men’s track athletes compete at the Rio Olympics. Our track team does post season competitions from IC4A and ECAC to NCAA.
“it doesn’t matter how good or bad the Ivy League teams are. So long as they can play competitively among themselves in the Ivy League.”
Lol if you’ve ever been an athlete or coach it matters because that’s the reason for sports especially at collegiate level, doesn’t matter if it’s a power 5 conference or not. Cornell competes against teams outside of Ivy League and you betcha we’re competing to win.
What nonsense. If having a top football team is what makes a school prestigious, Alabama should be the number one school in the country and HYP wouldn’t be in the top 100.
“The Ivy League does not participate in post-season play in American football, but it does participate and have automatic bids in men’s and women’s basketball post-season tournaments.”
Yeah – we all know about #16 Princeton almost knocking off #1 Georgetown years ago. And it has been noted above that the Ivies do play a few niche sports (lax, ice hockey) at the highest college level.
But the whole point of the Ivy League is to do it their own way and accept the lower level of competitiveness that comes along with that. As long as the Ivies can compete with the other Ivies, it is all good.
Really wish the Tigers had pulled that upset though. But since they didn’t, that ignominy will forever hang around the neck of my UVA Cavaliers. Sad!
“Surely you haven’t failed to notice that every SCOTUS justice is from Y or H.”
They are all graduates of HLS or YLS.
Last time I looked, there’s no varsity athletes at those law schools. Or any other law schools either. And I don’t think any of the justices that have undergrad degrees from H or Y were varsity athletes at those colleges.
Any of the posters who think athletics is not relevant try telling a Stanford grad they should do away with their football team. Bill Walsh and the 49er ghosts would roll over in their graves.
@northwesty I think the controversy for today is Kavanaugh spent 6 figures on sports tickets that may have pushed him close to bankruptcy. So it obviously must have been important to him
You really don’t get it. Ivy sports ( not just football but also hockey, lacrosse, basketball, crew, sailing) is about a cultural mystique. SAY is absolutely correct. The Chariots of Fire comparison is excellent. Ivy sports (at least at Yale) is part of the spirit of the college–even for sports that are lightly attended,
@bludbulldog You hit the nail on the head. Even if you are a non-athlete one cannot fail to notice that there are many social activities based on athletics.
I did in fact notice that someone commented on Amy Barrett’s education as being second rate. I honestly know nothing about her undergraduate school ( it was mentioned briefly) but I think she went to Notre Dame for law school and did clerk for a SCJ and yet was still considered weak in the academic area. I don’t know much about ND, but it seems like an excellent school to me. But didn’t make the grade at least to these folks who were discussing Supreme Court Justices. Yep, the Ivy league esp HYP still retains a certain distinction among the elite. Wonder how long it will last.
No one said it’s only sports.
Many top schools have their own sports division within the development dept. Of course it can generate big bucks. But I think the drive to keep sports rolling, as well as they can, is as much about eternal hope and what that represents to many competitive sorts, whether athletes, fans, or just the rest.
I think the Chariots of Fire reference is accurate to a point. I went to Harvard and my Dad went to Harvard. He cared a lot more about the football team than I ever did. At least enough that he dragged us all to Princeton one year to watch a game. I never did that to my kids and it would never have occurred to me to care. I belong to my class Facebook page so I might know who won the Harvard Yale game, but i don’t know if we had a winning season - I barely knew when we attended. When I was at Harvard the Houses were more segregated by interests - my House was not one of the jock houses - so that may have colored my views. Maybe if I were more upperclass or more interested in investment banking I’d have cared more about sports, but I didn’t, and no one, no one I knew did either.
People who did not attend these few schools will have a hard time understanding my point. But attending H or Y is not like going to Michigan or Berkeley. At Yale which I know best there is this weird little building called the “Tomb” where Skull and Bones meet. Now this building looks like nothing but it’s one of the most exclusive secret societies in the world. The list is a who’s who including a number of presidents and other powerful people. John Kerry and both Bush Presidents. Well guess who else was inducted. Brian Dowling (BD) from Doonesbury. For those of you not familiar you can’t really understand just how selective it is to be a member. Well BD got picked precisely because of that famous game and was a major figure in the comic strip. That’s how important the Yale QB was to Trudeau and how much that famous game meant to the culture of the campus. So then look at Love story. The main character is based on Tommy Lee Jones who was a football player at Harvard and roommates with Al Gore. In the past 100 years H and Y have stood apart and had far more influence on America than any other schools. These days Stanford has also reached that pinnacle and Princeton is close behind. To H or Y people only one game matters and just one win over their rival is a successful season. At any rate there are many fine elite schools but none have the history or prestige of H and Y and they are never going stop trying to be the best(within the agreed rules).
Law is generally said to be among the most school-elitist professions (with respect to one’s law school, rather than undergraduate), and Notre Dame law school is ranked “only” in the 20s or so.