The high school life

<p>Hmm, I did fix Sweden when I saw that earlier. Sorry about that.</p>

<p>As for the rankings, I was referring to, in general:</p>

<p>Program</a> for International Student Assessment (PISA) - A summary of findings from PISA 2006</p>

<p>and then dishonestly splicing data from some recent studies done in Newsweek. I wasn't planning on being so thorough in a debate.</p>

<p>*A tip regarding pathos in rhetoric: sometimes less is more.</p>

<p>Or were you just trying to compare me to a reactionary neo-Nazi?</p>

<p>It's an expression, bud. A neo-Nazi, no. A reactionary... well, you are portraying teachers as brainwashing students for political motives, and with little evidence to support you.*</p>

<p>Well, I suppose it's a regional thing. As for evidence, I can only cite the fact that the NEA has a fund devoted to political candidates and almost universally gives them to democratic candidates. Or local curriculums that mandate Howard Zinn and Karl Marx for all history and English classes, but not a single conservative writing.</p>

<p>Really it's more personal experience than anything else. And I don't have links to the latter. </p>

<p>As for my pathos, perhaps, but it was a rather hasty response. It's not my best writing nor speaking, and was an outlash of rage. </p>

<p>And as for the Jews comment, I found it particularly insulting, but perhaps it's just a regional difference in acceptability. </p>

<p>*</p>

<p>This appears to me to be less a criticism of education in the country than of societal attitudes in your part of New Jersey.*</p>

<p>Perhaps it is, I know very little else. I only have the ability to extrapolate it. If I am mercifully wrong, then I am glad. If not, then I have no more nor less to add.</p>

<p>*
I pay at least a bit towards them. Yes, most comes from property taxes that I don't pay, but it's the attitude of it that annoys me so very much. That I am indebted to them for some reason.</p>

<p>Well, teachers pay taxes too, so in a purely financial sense they are contributing as much to your education as anyone.</p>

<p>And I know very well who Oscar Wilde was, thank you. He was a master satirist who skewered the cultural attitudes of his society. It's not a large stretch to imagine you comparing yourself to him. I'm pleased to hear you weren't.*</p>

<p>True, I'd suppose. Something always seemed awry to me. Perhaps I mistake their purposes.</p>

<p>It seems strange when students are berated in class without room for retort for their opinions in essays. But I hope it's different elsewhere.</p>

<p>*
High schools are drastically innefficient, specifically in the United States, and exist solely as a means of containment during a preset period that Americans have chosen as being capable to operate in the specialized post-industrial society.</p>

<p>I point out this sentence as a grammatical nightmare, not because I'm a pedantic, but because I cannot figure out what "during a preset period that Americans have chosen as being capable to operate in the specialized post-industrial society" is supposed to mean.*</p>

<p>Pardon again, in short society is, by means of rapid specialization brought on by the industrial revolution, not capable(as were past societies) of utilizing young citizens for much, and therefore need to keep them contained lest they be a danger.</p>

<p>Or so I am told in school, strangely enough(about the WPA, but the concept remains similar.)</p>

<p>blah blah blah jarring shift into past tense with no explanation blah blah okay I am not even going to attempt to address the rest of this section. You don't substantiate a single argument you make, and the piece in its entirety reads like a Dickens knock off.</p>

<p>Admittedly I haven't read much of Dickens, and what I've read never really endeared me to him, so sorry about that. I imagine my thoughts went into about 1850 with education, if the past tense makes any sense.</p>

<p>Sorry if it's entirely incoherent. I merely wanted to propose something, as you suggested.</p>

<p>*Homeschoolers show, in many states, tremendous educational advantage to those who are schooled conservatively.</p>

<p>Biased sample - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>

<p>I was midway through refuting the rest when I noticed you don't specify why school choice (by which I assume you mean implementation of a voucher system, sicne you never specify) would fix any of the problems you're describing. When you're done philosphizing and ready to get to the point I'll be happy to debate the merits of public education, but right now I haven't been given anything off of which to go.*</p>

<p>Sorry, I wasn't much expecting to actually have a debate. As it is, I was mainly ranting.</p>

<p>Well then, for my purposes:</p>

<p>School choice-any system whereby students and parents are in control of the schools they go to without life changing consequence(such as moving.)</p>

<p>Points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>American schools constrain a group of people together by age and geography, leading to an insular world view, and a fear of other age groups(I have no evidence, I'm afraid. Merely the myriad students I see who are incapable of talking to adults as equals.)</p></li>
<li><p>American schools are considered neigh holy. Abandoning them is largely condemned, likely but not necessarily due to the fact that most have to go through them and become rather nostalgic. Thus there is a certain nature to them where they can get away with much more without fear of consequence.</p></li>
<li><p>Public schools are unable to do anything unconstitutional and are thus restrained heavily. Yet they act outside those bounds, making them highly ineffectual and victim(rightly or not) of many lawsuits.</p></li>
<li><p>Schools encourage an atmosphere of blind obedience by means of tremendous negative reinforcement(detention, suspension) for any perceived diversion from the status quo.</p></li>
<li><p>Schools encourage the dead opposite of democracy by providing an entirely autocratic nature, many times violating the laws they are meant to be bound by. For example, at my sister's school, walking about without identification is punishable. Some, though not many, believe this could lead to society ignoring their laws in later life. Controversial but I stand in favor of it.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Is this a good starting ground, or should I provide more research. Admittedly I'm not much in the mood to research at the moment, and my laziness is affecting the quality of my arguement. I only wanted to open some students eyes to any injustices by means of extreme words.</p>

<p>Mainly, to me, as I've said, any word whispered against a teacher will be punished either by law or by some other method. I only imagined that it was the same elsewhere. That seems to not be the case, and though my words might not reveal it, that makes me happy.</p>

<p>Also, sorry if my words came off as unintelligible/pretentious/argumentative/etc.</p>

<p>I was rather angry at some of the tone of your post, especially the implication that I should be blaming the Jews. I've not heard that statement before, in that context anyway, so it equated to me as an accusation of racism that seemed misplaced.</p>

<p>I was also just rather angry from a string of scholastic affairs and general dismissive nature of most to my complaints, in addition to never speaking out against them(ever) that I made my arguements particularly strong.</p>

<p>I can't imagine there being some brilliant man in a leather chair manipulating the whole thing, but I do feel there is a certain atmosphere of subservience and suspicion at the schools I've attended, based on inane policies and such that I only imagine all schools must be so.</p>

<p>If they aren't, then perhaps my anger is misguided. But I fear they are, by all local accounts, anyway.</p>

<p>Sorry, if I've seemed too upset. I'm normally rather calm.</p>

<p>Ah, and for why school choice would work, I only imagine that the schools that do poorly or are disliked will be left, and those liked will be well funded.</p>

<p>Perhaps I'm wrong, but it beats subsidizing tremendous partying for all the wealthy kids.</p>

<p>At least to me.</p>

<p>I like going to school. As a senior the classes have gotten less... worthwhile, but after 4 years I can say almost every single one of my teachers is competent and cares, therefore I have put in the effort and learned and done well. I love being able to hang out with friends and all my teachers (save 1) are excellent.</p>

<p>Just another Ca Public school?</p>

<p>Get out there, party, have fun, make new friends... and HS will be fun too :)</p>

<p>I'll miss it at least</p>

<p>Wow, I have a completely different experience of high school. I like it. Maybe it's because I just stick around the nerds.</p>

<p>I second MelancholyDane. It's not like the world has a conspiracy to make you (that is, a very general you) and people like you suffer. We have better things to do.</p>

<p>Sometimes, people will try so hard to overthrow the commonly held and incorrect beliefs that they will take it too far into equally incorrect beliefs.</p>

<p>American education is not as good as it could be. But it certainly isn't bad.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
Or local curriculums that mandate Howard Zinn and Karl Marx for all history and English classes, but not a single conservative writing

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<ol>
<li>Karl Marx was a historical figure and it's important to learn his ideas. Plus, reading them will make people NOT like him.</li>
<li>Howard Zinn is a nice antidote to the traditionally rosy story of the country learned in middle school. And notice how he doesn't only attack conservative things; he attacks the prevailing opinion, whether liberal or conservative, and whether he supports it or is against it. "Not a single conservative writing" is subjective; I consider most reading we do in high school to be at least somewhat conservative, and you, clearly being a conservative, would likely disagree.</li>
</ol>

<p>My point? You (this time a specific you) might just be imagining this "brainwashing" that's occurring by buying the myth of the liberal bias in the school system. More than a few of my teachers have complained that the school system is too liberal when the only major political club is completely reactionary (and this is in liberal Michigan, mind you).</p>

<p>OK, so the above post was basically what MelancholyDane said with the color drained. But PAC has perpetrated some of unforgivable crimes of writing (which I have learned not to commit the hard way):</p>

<ol>
<li>Name-dropping</li>
<li>Excessive sentimentality</li>
<li>Can't think of any more...not much of a list, eh?</li>
</ol>

<p>I guess things are different in New Jersey, but I can't imagine any school that oppressive. Cheesy as this may sound, I think it's a matter of attitude.</p>

<p>Just a random fact: My school was designed by a company that normally designs prisons.</p>

<p>PAC, I should be the one apologizing. I did at least as much to escalate the tension here as you did, and there really shouldn't be any tension at all in a friendly discussion. Also, my "blaming the Jews" comment was out of line. Historically (and I'm sure you know this, because you seem very informed) in many Western societies, the Jewish people have been used as a scapegoat or pariah for whatever problem currently had the people's attention, and I was likening your judgment of the teachers to this scapegoating. My comment was not meant to be an accusation of prejudice on your part, and I offer my deepest apologies for having offended you.</p>

<p>In the name of fairness, it is true that those in educational professions lean overwhelmingly Democratic compared to the rest of the population. However, I have never had a teacher who attempted to indoctrinate me or anyone. Most keep their own political affiliations a secret, or play the devil's advocate to keep us on our toes. This could mean either that you've been very unfortunate with your teachers or that I've been very fortunate. I've heard horror stories about oppressingly liberal classrooms, and I have to believe there's some element of truth to them.</p>

<p>I imagine it must be my attitude then. I've never had a problem reading Marx, or Zinn. It's just this overly-happy attitude it's presented with.</p>

<p>And I'm not at all really a conservative. I'm a reactionary in the sense that I go against the mainstream because no one else does, but I'm really just a bit of a libertarian with socialistic sympathies.(From the humanitarian side.)</p>

<p>I'm really not so terrible(am I?), even if my writings are. Just sometimes I need to say something, anything really.</p>

<p>I like that it's not so crazy as I always see it.</p>

<p>I thought I'd be attacked for criticizing anything at all!</p>

<p>In truth, most of my teachers are actually very unbiased. I go to a school so scientifically oriented(and wonderfully nerdy) that I don't have many opportunities to sneak in political views.</p>

<p>One can't really tell me that F=MA proves that Bush is the devil, or somesuch.</p>

<p>Just some rather terrible experiences of my family, friends, and earlier in my life have given me a bad taste. But I think they fired the teacher who was so indoctrinating. I probably give them a terrible name, undeserved.</p>

<p>It really is a matter of outlook. I'm so afraid they're trying to do something to me, or take something from me that I'm probably really distorted. </p>

<p>I'm just afraid of force, and even though I know it doesn't even exist for me anymore(Not only could I withdraw at any time from school, I'm seventeen so I don't even need to be educated by law) I think I imagine it still existing.</p>

<p>I see education as some form of control, that the teacher stands and I sit, that I cannot eat in a classroom, that a cellphone is banned from the building, it just grates on me over time. I feel it's just some form of guilty before proven innocent idea, combined with ritualism.</p>

<p>It couldn't be that sophisticated, even if I follow my most extreme statements I'd suggest the entire establishment would be far too incompetent. </p>

<p>But I suppose it's not natural for emotions to be rational.</p>

<p>I don't know about you, but I'm afraid of college. If I get a good scholarship to a state school, I imagine I'd go there. I'm scared it'll be the same thing as high school, and it makes me more and more angry. </p>

<p>I don't much like anger, admittedly.</p>

<p>I suppose it got far too heated there. Sorry again! And thanks too!</p>

<p>Damn it. Don't you two know how to argue? What the heck is this apologizing 'civility' crap? Fight! This is the internet--you are right, regardless of how many studies prove that smoking clearly causes cancer! Rational thought? Ditch that useless garbage! Polite questioning? We're all Americans in this discussion-let's be deaf and angry like God intended! This thread is dangerously low on vitriol and ad hominem attacks! </p>

<p>What are we becoming, moderates or something?</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
It's just this overly-happy attitude it's presented with.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Zinn is a bit pretentious and overbearing, and he seems to take glee in conveniently excising evidence that disagrees with his point of view. And he needs to get a life.</p>

<p>The school system is inefficient, but any bureaucracy is by nature inefficient, except, of course, Wikipedia.</p>

<p>And I suppose I should apologize too. I contributed to the tension with a few...stupid remarks. Since you two apologized to each other, I feel obligated to apologize, too.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I'm really not so terrible(am I?), even if my writings are.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I'm sure your writing isn't terrible either. It's just that you should read over what you've read after you're done. I'm glad to know you're not one of the complete idiots who thinks that anything he scribbles one day in school is a work of art.</p>

<p>To enderkin: I am a Canadian exiled in America, thank you very much. We don't need any sulfuric acid.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
What are we becoming, moderates or something?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>POLITICAL PERSECUTION!!!</p>

<p>What the hell could get you exiled from Canada? I mean, those guys are completely chill about like, everything.</p>

<p>And, yes, everyone needs sulfuric acid. it's sort of like cowbell, except the sound isn't so much a happy clanging as it is a cry of pain from whatever lab technician you accidentally poured the highly corrosive stuff on.</p>

<p>I got exiled from Canada when I was 6 because we moved.</p>

<p>So then...triple homicide, right?</p>

<p>I suppose, if you want to put it that way. There are other things I would prefer to call it.</p>

<p>Aghh...need to go to sleep now.</p>

<p>But internet flame wars are teh fun...</p>

<p>=(</p>

<p>PAC's comments are really cute.</p>

<p>that is all.</p>

<p>haha, wow.</p>

<p>That is all.</p>

<p>Why does everyone hate high school so much? Do you really think college will be that much better? Or even the rest of your life? I've had my fair share of bad teachers, unfair grading systems, things that i will never need to know again in my life, and that isn't fair of course, but life isn't fair. I think ya'll need to focus less on the the academic experiences of high school, and focus just a little more on the the social (or some other) aspect. The more you focus on something the more likely you are to find problems with it. And if you hate high school so much, why don't you just drop out? (just kidding)</p>

<p>The chickensh_t bureaucracy and waste of time in high school is enormous. My high school has raped me into submission with its senseless rules that it heavily enforces. I now go through the motions, in total apathy, looking at college as some golden beacon in the distance. The drudgery is overwhelming, my motivation is all but eliminated, and my high school can create irreversible rules on a whim. My entire goal for this last semester of senior year is to not fail classes or get suspended.</p>