The lack of +/-

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>Should I post books on the subject of assessments and grading or should I write an essay on the topic for you? I happen to be sitting in a cubicle write now with no less than 6 books and probably 40 articles on this stuff as I am helping Providence write new policies for grading across the district. </p>

<p>Let’s start with the Twitter version of why you’re wrong:</p>

<p>Exogenous cut-offs for grades actually distorts what information is available and leads to false precision and greater inaccuracy. This is not solved by further stratification.</p>

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</p>

<p>Why do you want to? </p>

<p>When you meet someone for the first time, do you immediately ask their GPA and SATs to figure out whether you will walk away or talk to them? There is a lot more to a person than a 2-3 digit number.</p>

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<p>Quite frankly, this type of grading is hardly unique to Brown. It’s really frustrating when people are quick to play the angry mob by bashing and “scorning” Brown’s grading policy. Half the high schools in America (and many other colleges for that matter) have the exact same grading system. Heck, my high school didn’t have +/- and that didn’t stop me from getting into several top schools–I would list them, but that’d come off as bragging. Point is, I’m sure the last thing on employers’ and college admissions officers’ minds are the lack of +'s and -'s on a transcript.</p>

<p>I’m assuming your high school had a +/- grading system, Fastfood? And, think honestly, I’m sure you can come up with at least one other institution of learning that does not utilize the +/- system—and I’m willing to bet you never looked down upon that school. It wasn’t until you discoverd “Brown” not having +/- that you got skeptical. Again, I’m sensing angry mob syndrom–Brown grads do fine with employment outlooks. That should be enough proof that the lack of +/- is not hurting anyone.</p>

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<p>Alright! Now that is an answer! </p>

<p>What is the “right” level of stratification?</p>

<p>So the education system has been doing it wrong for hundreds of years?</p>

<p>edit:</p>

<p>No my high school did not have +/-. I loved it. I aimed for 89.5, and any grade above that was wasted time/effort. </p>

<p>It’s not that I would judge somebody on a personal level by their GPA - that is completely ridiculous - but I think that there is an extra level of aptitude required to graduate with a 3.8 versus a 3.5 or 6. In my experience those distinctions are consistent enough to be good indicators of ability. Perhaps Modest is right, and it is merely false accuracy. </p>

<p>I don’t bash Brown just because of their grading - I’m sure plenty of other schools have crazy grading policies. I’m only asking around here because Brown is in the Ivy League and therefore the discussion is a bit more translatable for me.</p>

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<p>One can, of course, easily calculate one’s GPA…that Brown doesn’t do it for you is simply the institutional view on GPA rather than an inability to calculate it. The only thing that might pose difficulties in such a calculation are courses taken S/NC (which Princeton allows as well and seems to have no trouble computing a GPA) and that courses failed only appear on the internal, rather than the external transcript (although a term with 3 or fewer courses appearing on the external transcript might be a tip off that something happened).</p>

<p>To compare GPAs, however, even within the same concentration, poses some issues. My high school (private boarding prep school, fairly well known, not exactly a slouch school) did not calculate GPA or provide rank on the grounds that such metrics could be deceiving and not tell the entire story, so they wanted colleges to look at the entire transcript. Brown has a similar policy, though I think their reasons might be different - with less pressure to do whatever it takes to raise one’s GPA by even the smallest amount (not to say that everyone would do so or that everyone at other schools do this, but it seems foolish to believe that no one would do this), one could instead focus on learning and less on one potentially-deceptive number. Similarly, while a GPA could aid in the comparison of two Poli Sci concentrators, using only GPA would only give one a vague sense…a few tenths of a point difference may have no meaning, as most concentrations allow students to take different courses to obtain the same degree, some of which may be harder than others. By not directly computing GPA, Brown is, even if unintentionally, putting more focus on the transcript so people will see what the student has done rather than help a student to be seen as a couple of easily-manipulated numbers. Obviously, one can take advantage of this system. The transcript should, though, give signs of this. Thus one couldn’t argue that a 3.8 from one school is equal to a 3.8 from Brown (or that one is better) without more information.</p>

<p>I don’t necessarily agree with all portions of the Open Curriculum. I personally have not taken a course pass/fail because I feel I would not work as hard in that class or would use the option to hide a grade that might not be as strong as I’d like. The concern that a potential employer may look at my transcript with the same mistrust you previously mentioned worries me occasionally, but it makes me work harder and harder to distinguish myself in any way I can. I don’t think that the system’s perfect, but that’s my take on it.</p>

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<p>Failed courses are hidden?? How many courses can you take pass/fail?</p>

<p>So about intra-major comparisons:

  1. Does Brown provide a measure of course difficultly on the transcript? I know on our transcripts the % of the class receiving an A is published right next to my grade. This gives the reviewer a sense of how hard the class is so that they can see that I am challenging myself to get good grades.<br>
  2. Does this foster a competition to take the <em>most</em> courses within a major? I would imagine graduating having taken more classes within a major compared to a fellow graduate would look better. </p>

<p>I get the idea of forcing the reviewer to look at the individual classes taken and the pathway to majoring, but I hear to many stories of people taking advantage of that system for their own (lazy) gain.</p>

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<p>You should read Brown’s webpage on the philosophy of the open curriculum (and maybe should have been there already). </p>

<p>edit: I also think you may be having trouble understanding this because you’re locked into a one-dimensional linear logic type of thinking on how these things work. Your education and career is much more complex and interesting than you’re making it.</p>

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<ol>
<li>No. Personally, I measure my success by how hard I tried and how much I learned, not by the grade I got. I am much more proud of the b’s I have in classes in which I learned a ton than the a’s in classes that were easy or in which I didn’t apply myself because I had an easy a. </li>
<li>If I want competition I’ll go the racetrack. If I want an education, I’ll go to Brown </li>
</ol>

<p>Brown encourages you to take as many classes outside of your major as possible, so you, you know, learn things. I’m an art major with way more classes than i need for my major, but guess what, I’ve also studied science, math, english, classics, psychology, anthropology, art history, history, philosophy…</p>

<p>Regarding shooting for 89.5% – few students at Brown do this, which is also why it is less of a “problem” that there are no minuses. Brown students don’t stop trying when the grade is in the bag or doesn’t matter. I’ve gotten A’s in almost all the classes I’ve taken S/NC. S/NC takes the pressure off, it doesn’t diminish effort or learning simply because that option is there. It also encourages academic exploration. Some classes are mandatory S/NC, like the creative nonfiction class I’m in, so people aren’t afraid to take it lest they hurt their GPA (which people simply calculate on their own – you still have a GPA) </p>

<p>And, as your “employer,” I would view your “89.5%” approach very negatively. Someone who is only results-driven and not content driven will ultimately not be as successful as someone who looks at the whole picture and gives the whole effort, regardless of letters on paper. </p>

<p>There is a mentality to being a Brown student that makes the system work. That mentality is learning as much as you can and trying your best not because of grades, but because of a personal desire for a rich education and to do your best. This is what you are not getting.</p>

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<p>And yes, failed courses are hidden, you can drop at any time, and you can take as many classes as you want s/nc (though few people do this). This also means you get no credit for a D or “D+”</p>

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<p>Technically, one could take all of one’s courses S/NC. To do so would be, in most cases, unless you fundamentally disagree with being graded, foolish. Somewhere on the Brown website, I seem to recall reading that they suggest no more than 1 course a term be taking S/NC, and to be sure that it’s not in one’s concentration or an area one might pursue. Many of my friends have not taken any courses S/NC. If one takes a class pass/fail within one’s concentration, it’s fair to assume that any employer or graduate school reserves the right to consider that a C, since they can’t tell if it’s anything better. Failed courses are hidden, but as I said, it’s generally pretty easy to tell where a course was failed or dropped, unless the student is taking a courseload such that dropping or failing a course would still leave them at a standard number of courses.</p>

<p>Brown does not provide such a service, though I do agree one would be useful. Brown does, hidden within their website, have a breakdown of grades given by area (that is, Humanities, Social Sciences, Sciences, and “Other”), but they get no more specific than that.</p>

<p>I haven’t sensed such a competition, mostly because the majority of Brown students are the sorts who would use their classes outside the requirements of their concentration to explore in unrelated fields. I’m sure some people do attempt to take as many courses in their department as possible for that reason, but it’s far from prevalent, to the extent that I don’t know anyone who has done that. With that said, most of my friends are in the sciences, where a Bachelor of Science degree provides a significant enough courseload that one could potentially cover nearly all of the various areas of that department.</p>

<p>I do agree that some people take advantage of the system…it’s just a question of where the line between proper use and abuse lies. Obviously, motivated students would get a lot out of the Open Curriculum, while less motivated students could slide through. My sense is that if employers and graduate schools found that they were accepting Brown graduates who turned out to be the sorts of people who would slide through rather than work hard, admissions rates would decline, fewer Brown students would get jobs. That this hasn’t happened seems to (although I say this with some hesitation since I have very little tangible evidence to support this) imply that employers and graduate schools are happy with what they’re getting from Brown alumni.</p>

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<p>"Alright! Now that is an answer!</p>

<p>What is the “right” level of stratification?</p>

<p>So the education system has been doing it wrong for hundreds of years?"</p>

<p>There is no “right” level of stratification, that’s totally dependent upon what inference you want to draw from the grade. For example, the performance on four totally different exams covering different material + home work assignments that all cover different material + a lab which covers a totally different competency combined with weights that are different in every course at every university spits out a number, like say 88. Now, let’s not even get into the problem with using a single point score from an exam as an exact measure of success, but let’s look at this 88. How is this different from a 92? If you want a system which has +/- that means that you believe that through that whole process you can fundamentally distinguish between someone who earns an 88 versus a 92 and that this accurately reflects a different level of understanding. What if one person took the course with a different professor who included homeworks more and the labs less? That same person, with all of the same scores in the same class on the same exams now could have an 86 or a 92. Does that mean they are demonstrable different from the 88? Should this student get a B, B+, A-? Maybe an A? What if the class average was an 88? What if the distribution of grades in the class fell between an 84-94? How does this change your grade? What if one professor in that situation thinks it means his whole class has learned the material he wanted them to very well and gave everyone an A? Would he be wrong if he believes that earning an 84 would be a sign of superior success? What if he thinks that he should grade on a normal curve and an 84 would fail, yet that 84 with slight adjustments could easily become a 90 which would earn a B+? What if another person thinks that 90 should be a strict cut-off because that represents A level work so everyone from 90-94 is an A and 84-89 is a B? Is 89 different from 90? What justifies that change?</p>

<p>Yes, a lot of education has this whole thing wrong and there are whole books on it written by experts on testing and there have also been many changes at lots of institutions to move away from these systems.</p>

<p>You should look into measurement error, sampling error, bias, reliability, and validity in testing. Read Koretz on testing, or maybe Marzano on classroom grading.</p>

<p>I could get very technical about this rather than stream-of-consciousness examples right now, but the truth is that it’s nearly impossible to make grades a meaningful progress metric at the university-level for comparison across even multiple sections of the same course. That task, at least is possible. It’s essentially impossible to standardized the meaning of a grade across different courses, and even more impossible across institutions.</p>

<p>Brown de-emphasizes the inaccuracy built into these grades by decreasing the stratification, decreasing the emphasis on the grades, and increasing the emphasis on learning through both structures and culture. Measure somebody by what they know, but realize that grades are not particularly reliable measures of that in almost all cases.</p>

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<p>^Nice Post!</p>

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<p>I’ve always thought that Columbia’s insistence on putting the percentage of A recipients on their transcripts was despicable. If they took it off, their students would almost certainly get more/better job and grad school offers, at no cost to the school. If you think it would somehow cheapen the Columbia degree, you’re living in a fantasy world.</p>

<p>There are two ways to approach grading and competition:</p>

<p>Approach 1 (AKA, the ‘Brown Approach’): Have an admissions process. Try to weed out people who will do the bare minimum required of them (fastfood’s admitted appoach). Welcome everyone who makes it though that process with open arms, as members of a cohesive community. Foster cooperation and self-motivation. Everyone graduates with similar credentials, and everyone is employable / grad-school-able (given other factors).</p>

<p>Approach 2 (AKA, the ‘Columbia Approach’): Have an admissions process. Promptly forget that you put anyone through this filter, and treat everyone as potentially suspect. Promote competition from Day 1. Foster an environment of ‘conspicuous stress’. Insist on judging students against each other rather than against the world. Half of the students graduate with credentials that make them unemployable.</p>

<p>If you don’t see the value of approach 1 over approach 2, then you should go to a school that takes the latter approach. Also, you might want to consider investment banking.</p>

<p>If you think the value of the degrees from schools that follow approach 1 is reduced by virtue of the fact that they follow that approach, let me help you out: you’re simply wrong.</p>

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<p>

You forgot option 3.</p>

<p>Option 3: Eliminate grades altogether. Write narrative evaluations instead.</p>

<p>You could call this the Evergreen State approach.</p>

<p>Students at Brown already have the option of requesting such evaluations in addition to their grades. Why not simply take the process a step farther? Many other colleges have.</p>

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<p>It would be worth mentioning that Brown does offer the ability to request narrative evaluations for classes. Professors are required to grant them when the course in question is a mandatory S/NC course (Freshman writing seminars, the very basic chem course most people place out of, Calc I, etc.), and they often will in other situations as well. Technically, taking every course S/NC and asking for these evaluations would serve as that third option, although it would be a student action rather than an institutional policy.</p>

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<p>warblersrule-- actually, it’s almost exactly what happened at Brown but students chose to go another way.</p>

<p>You can receive a narrative assessment in every class at Brown if you want using a Course Performance Report. You could take every class SNC if you want. In fact, shortly after the New Curriculum was introduced as much as 70% of grades awarded were Ss. Students over time drifted back to having some kind of grade. The idea was provide choice, with the hope that people would move on their own to the SNC system-- they did, but it didn’t last.</p>

<p>I think what it came down to is the rest of the world wasn’t ready to deal with CPRs and SNCs. Brown was willing to go there.</p>

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<p>Uroogla - Yes, I noted that, but I think we cross-posted while I edited. That is certainly a very nice feature that I suspect gets taken advantage of less than it should…med schools would probably care less, but I know for a fact that most graduate programs would love to see such reports for every applicant.</p>

<p>

Yes, that makes sense to me. UCSC switched back recently for the same reason.</p>

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<p>For the record, I credit a CPR for making my law school admissions process so easy and quick. It was the single best evaluation I have ever received, and it happened to be from a former justice of the Rhode Island Supreme Court.</p>

<p>(Disclaimer: Results may vary :slight_smile: )</p>