<p>OK, my student is many wonderful things but a leader he is not. His GPA is high, SAT's good, and I think he could handle the work in a more competitive small to mid-size school or honors program. But he's a worker bee in his activities, and while that's a necessary role that he performs well, it doesn't look great on an application. Do the more competitive schools insist on leadership skills for all their students? His reach schools would be U Michigan Ann Arbor or Grinnell caliber. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>The missing piece on my S’s application is also the “leadership thing.” It doesn’t mean he doesn’t have those qualities. In fact, because of the way he is and what he does, he’s a damn good role model (how many kids are going to take the down time with the dark room in a photography class to help tutor other students in math?) He’s trying to address this in essays, speaking to how he positions himself as a strategic ally (leadernship from the ranks) and managed to have more influence without the authority role.</p>
<p>Public universities – including places like Michigan – overwhelmingly base admission on stats. If leadership and ECs count for anything, they count for merit aid.</p>
<p>Once you get below top 25 or so, even private schools base admissions mainly on stats. It really is only the very top LACs and national universities that use leadership as part of their admission criteria. That’s because they get such an overabundance of high stat applicants that the schools can afford to pick and choose from among those outstanding applicants.</p>
<p>A male with excellent GPA, solid SATs would be in line for many LACs, including some top 20 ones since LACs in particular have a tough time recruiting males.</p>
<p>IMHO - Your S is most likely much more of a leader than he thinks he is. I can not tell you how many people I know who were considered “worker bees” in HS ( by themselves as well as by others), became leaders in college and beyond when the circumstances were different.</p>
<p>I don’t think this is a huge factor in admissions. I think most adcoms are aware that in many cases students with a lot of HS “leadership” positions on the application are reflecting only popularity. Not to take away from the real leaders in HS (because there are some), but I just think it’s very hard to judge on paper.</p>
<p>If your S needs to put something on an application, you should get creative. It sounds as if he has done some EC’s and put some work in, so think about times when he was not the designated “officer” or “captain”, but was the one who made sure the job got done. Or maybe he was the one who went out of his way to take care of the details overlooked by others, etc.</p>
<p>S1 used his P/T job as a leadership role for a scholarship competition. He was a great student but not really into the sch. club scene. He seemed to think his description of his job responsibilities impressed the interviewer. He got the scholarship. Only applied to state u’s so his numbers prob. mattered more to them.</p>
<p>One of my DDs did not really see herself as a leader, more of a team player, though she was often captain of sport teams, she did not see that as ‘real’ leadership. HS senior year she was invited to apply for a leadership merit award at one of the universities to which she had applied. She quailed at the thought of presenting herself as a true leader.</p>
<p>Then came a conversation with the GC who was also her teacher for a class in each of grades 11 & 12. He told her, in reply to her saying she is not a student body pres type leader, “but Somemom’s DD, you are a leader in the way you live your life every single day and that is the best kind of leader” And he was right, that is the kind of leader and athlete she is and she recognised the truth of his comment.</p>
<p>She got a real boost in confidence and also got that renewable merit award all 4 years. So a kid does not have to be a stereotypical leader, but does need to understand how they lead and be able to confidently convey that.</p>
<p>There is a common theme to these responses so far. I also believe these “invisible leaders” will come into their own in a good college setting, where some of the banalities of high school life are set aside.</p>
<p>Yipee! Finally I can brag on CC!!! 
My D (B average and similar SATs) excels in this area…student council president, sports team captain, etc. I think that leadership, like the GPA and SAT, are all part of the package. There just isn’t enough time to do it ALL!</p>
<p>Some colleges actually have a check box for “glue.” That’s admissions-speak for the kids who aren’t elected leaders but actually do the work that helps organizations succeed, the kids who pitch in and do what needs to be done without demanding a plaque for it.</p>
<p>My son has no formal EC’s, let alone leadership activities. However, he is a terrific kid who has managed to stay true to himself in a school where he just doesn’t “fit.” I have encouraged him to try to find a way to show adcoms who he truly is through his essays. He has chosen a safety that he would be fine with attending to add to the mix. Let the chips fall where they may … he is who he is, things will work out for him.</p>
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<p>I am glad to see this, because I have long suspected that to be the case, and honestly, I can’t think of too many people who impress me now as leaders who were student body presidents (etc) in HS.</p>
<p>I also think that the Admissions Reps realize that there can only be one president,one vice president,etc.and look for longevity in EC’s as well as “leadership” roles.</p>
<p>As many parents know, formal leadership positions are not the only measure of “leadership”. As other posters have suggested, longevity in ECs, etc are just as important in admissions. I worried that I was the only one who saw my D’s strength and ability to positively influence those around her. She worried that her only formal leadership role was as the vice president of the math club (and it was really “nerdy”). She was a strong candidate at admission time but certainly no slam dunk. She was admitted to her dream school. After hearing of her admission, one of the teachers who wrote her recommendation letters gave her a copy of the letter he had written to her dream school. He wrote about her quiet leadership, sense of honor and kindness both in the classroom and around campus. I think that type of leadership is just as important as being the president of the Spanish club. Leadership takes many forms.</p>
<p>**I am glad to see this, because I have long suspected that to be the case, and honestly, I can’t think of too many people who impress me now as leaders who were student body presidents (etc) in HS.<br>
**</p>
<p>Quite honestly, it’s this attitude here at CC that just surprises me. How would you react if someone says that “I can’t think of too many people who impress me now as — who were ----(insert your child’s accomplishment here) etc) in HS”.</p>
<p>Sheesh. Why put a kid down who has what your kid doesn’t?</p>
<p>It almost seems like everyone wants their kid to be a 4.8 GPA, 2400 SAT, Football/Cheerleader Captain, Student Council President, Habitat for Humanity Volunteer, model and hold a ‘meaningful’ part time job. Whichever of those your kid doesn’t have, you put down as ‘less important’. </p>
<p>I admire the perfect SATs and stellar GPAs and I consider them no more or less important than my kids’ achievments…and you can bet that I wouldn’t say that the adults who I’ve met with perfect SATs don’t impress me with their intellects. I don’t presume to generalize this way.</p>
<p>mimi… there is time for some students to “do it all”. The top students will have the high gpa, test scores AND find time to take prominent roles in EC’s- they may be running CC instead of playing football and/or getting the academic team prizes and/or doing the plays/music… Being popular with others and getting elected to lead in sports or school politics is a skill, but CC is about college, which implies academics and college rigor is defined by that, not HS social accomplishments. I, too, have not been impressed by most HS officers/athletes in comparison to other classmates who achieved a lot more after HS. Some may continue to be big fish in a small, average pond, but that’s not the pond I would choose to swim in. Different values.</p>
<p>Regarding “leadership”. Years ago the middle school summer gifted program had a leadership course, I wish I remember all of the varied actions that counted as being a leader they pointed out to kids who only thought of the stereotypical roles.</p>
<p>Teachers definitely see leadership in many different roles that students dismiss as they are “silent” or they don’t realize that others aren’t “taking the lead” in doing what they do. Introverted students find different ways to lead than extroverts. Good advice to check with teachers about how the student shows leadership. A thoughtful recommendation is worth more than a list of “leader” positions.</p>
<p>My daughters always thought leadership was overrated. At their large public high school, many students become president because of popularity but don’t do very much of anything (sometimes don’t even attend!) If a teacher is around, they are aware of this, sometimes though the meetings are without one.
I feel many more quiet students contribute a lot and don’t want the accolades. I also think that most schools see that, the ones that don’t are questionable to me.
I have talked to a few admissions staff in the past and although some leadership roles show potential and they hope they will be leaders in college, many students can’t get or want those roles and give in many other ways to the community. Hopefully that will be noted by others.
He also said, they are aware of “padding”, aware of money situations where traveling to another country or going to an expensive Ivy camp aren’t available to others, he was aware that affluent parents can get “showy recs” from friends that state things their children might have done at their company and doesn’t think less of the young man or woman who worked at the Big Y. I saw this many times at a hospital I worked at, one did a favor for a rec, the other doctor did one later.
My daughter made me laugh the other day when she said most students are unaware of what might count or not count and I think “ignorance is bliss” sometimes. They all seem to end up doing well."</p>
<p>My high school’s graduating class’s officers were unable/unwilling to perform one of their principal duties: plan the class reunion. One was a disorganized goof-off (but a good football player) and the other (pretty cheerleader) ended up in rehab. My good friend, a “glue” type of person, and others like her have done the planning for every reunion. My son’s class president was remembered, among other things, for having gotten really drunk and throwing himself in front of moving car. No doubt there are plenty of other kids elected to leadership roles who truly are mature and responsible. I think it depends on the culture of the school and how the student body views the student council or whatever. Some years it’s clearly seen as a joke, and kids will pull stunts like vote the new immigrant who’s in ESL as the secretary, or the ugliest girl as homecoming queen–just for a laugh and to annoy the administration. The popularity-contest or joke-election stuff seems to happen most with positions the whole school votes on. This is less of an issue with club officers. There’s better quality there it seems. Sitll, once this stuff became important for college admissions, a lot of ambitious kids entered the scene and started vying for positions despite having little or no true concern for the club and its goals. Hopefully, teacher recommendations help distinguish the true leaders from the others.</p>
<p>Another problem with these things is rigged elections. My son actually witnessed an activity advisor throw votes in the trash in order to influence the outcome. This may be for political purposes, such as to help out a friend’s kid, or thwart their child’s rival. </p>
<p>Lastly, for those peer mentorship programs, we’ve also seen a travesty. The students chosen tend to be quite sweet, but completely innocuous. In other words, the kind who would toe the party line and keep quiet, thereby making the teachers’/administration’s life easier. We noticed that kids we knew who had stood up against bullying, and who had tried to get help for kids who were cutting or abusing substances, were shut out of the program while those who had stood by silently (“I’m afraid to say anything,” “I don’t want to get involved.”) were selected.</p>
<p>My own D is a club president and will do a great job. So no offense to CCers with good kids like her, but many of us are cynics about these things and for good reason.</p>
<p>“He also said, they are aware of “padding”, aware of money situations where traveling to another country or going to an expensive Ivy camp aren’t available to others, he was aware that affluent parents can get “showy recs” from friends that state things their children might have done at their company and doesn’t think less of the young man or woman who worked at the Big Y. I saw this many times at a hospital I worked at, one did a favor for a rec, the other doctor did one later.”</p>
<p>The above is very true. The few colleges that use leadership as part of admission – places like HPYS – recognize what is leadership and what is not. A big reason that the admissions officers and alum volunteer interviewers realize this is that they themselves are real leaders and typically have been from a young age.</p>
<p>It’s very easy for someone who is active in their community and has a long history of leadership to tell the difference between resume padding and students who really did something. Such people also know that being a server at a fast food restaurant requires more leadership skills than being an “intern” at a family friend’s prestigious firm.</p>
<p>Questions such as : “What were your responsibilities?”, “What challenges did you face and how did you meet those challenges?”, “Describe a project that you created or organized and explain how you did those things”, are easily answered by people who were leaders, but people with faked leadership can’t provide specific answers to such questions.</p>
<p>It should also be kept in mind that the elite schools are obviously selecting for the “mover and shaker” gene. They want their alumni to go on to elevated positions in all areas of human endeavor, thereby furthering the name of their school. This quality–call it energy, passion, ambition, vision, charisma, etc.–is not synomymous with those personality traits that make a person lovable, kind, generous, or a good son, daughter, spouse, or parent, though movers and shakers may also be all those things.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your replies. You confirmed my suspicion that the better schools cannot be packed to the rafters with leaders. Who would they lead?! Considering the number of responses and everyone’s familiarity with this problem I am surprised that brag sheets, college guides and apps still seem to be focusing on leadership positions. Maybe that was my interpretation - I’ll stop wringing my hands have another look.</p>