<p>As an aside, this thread really does show the “loan reality” for most students. There is an option to graduate with manageable debt but a young student wants to take the “dream” path which may or may not end up panning out the way he/she wants it to but will still have the heavy debt baggage post-graduation. </p>
<p>I say let her dream. Then let her pay for that dream for the rest of her life. Why bother arguing with an 18 year old. When will you learn they are so much smarter than us. </p>
<p>^ Personally, it’s because I’ve seen enough students “see the light” on here that I think it’s always worth a try. </p>
<p>Often, no one has ever sat down with a senior and said “I understand this is what you want to do, but this will be the reality for the next ten years of your life.” Upon hearing what they might miss out on for the next decade, many WILL do a 180. </p>
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And you know this to be a fact, … how?? Besides, there is a lot more to wanting to attend Duke, et.al. than just the quality of what you are taught in the classroom. A lot more. Now that isn’t worth taking on massive debt, but it does explain why a lot of these students don’t want a CC. Sometimes you can’t have what you want, but you can still want it.</p>
<p>I know it because De Anza is consistently rated near the top of it’s category in educational quality,. As for out of classroom experiences, if you can’t afford something, you can’t afford it. You may want it, but you can’t always get what you want. I’d love to have gotten the on campus life experience from the start, and I had the acceptance letter to do it with. I couldn’t afford it. It sucks, but such is life.</p>
<p>Well, citing ratings is not a good argument, because they mean nothing. Besides their highly suspect assumptions and methodologies, I doubt any of them are comparing a CC to a 4 year school. So being at the top of the CC category wouldn’t tell you anything even if they were somehow measuring something that could actually be measured.</p>
<p>But it isn’t worth arguing about, because the main point for was that 4 year schools, especially top ones like Duke and Berkeley, offer such an extraordinary experience for students that fit well in those environments. I completely agree that sometimes you can only want it, especially if you cannot afford it. I was simply answering your question as to why some people think a CC is not an acceptable option. Especially since in her case she has a CSU as an affordable option.</p>
<p>One of the things people sometimes forget about CCs is that in some locations, that also requires having reliable transportation. Buying a car, paying for gas, insurance and repairs can completely negate the cost savings of attending a directional school and paying room & board. Parents don’t always realize just how much their cost of living goes down once that kid is out of the house either. There is a lot more money when they are gone. </p>
<p>I am willing to take some Parent PLUS loans because my financial situation improved tremendously in a field that isn’t going to be affected by recessions, etc. any time soon. For 2014-15, I can probably afford to pay for both kids EFC out of pocket but that wasn’t the case for BarnardGirl’s first two years. But, knowing that I can pay it for the next four years means that I’ll just keep paying that amount for a few more years and those PLUS loans will disappear quickly. A 7% loan is much cheaper than throwing it on a credit card, like I know some people have done for tuition. When I took the loans for BarnardGirl, we agreed that once she graduates, we would figure out who would pay what based on how much she makes and where she lives. Since I probably won’t have to take out any PLUS loans for S14, I will also pay off all of BarnardGirl’s PLUS loans myself. She doesn’t know that yet 
Once those are paid off, I will probably help them pay off their subsidized loans. I’m not having them take out unsubsidized. </p>
<p>Each family has to decide what they can do and make the right choices based on that. </p>
<p>@fallenchemist</p>
<p>“I am not going to beat up on your parents, because I have no idea what the particulars of the last 18 years or so have been for them. But if the reason they can only give you $12,000 a year out of that income and, based on the lack of any mention of it, saved nothing for your college years, they did you a grave disservice. You also screwed up by not researching excellent schools that are much more generous with merit scholarships (more on that soon). But what is done is done.”</p>
<p>If you say you are “not going to beat up on her parents” then don’t. You are right, you don’t understand the particulars, such as the fact that making 100k plus in an expensive part of California is probably like making half that in many other parts of the country. Even though she badly wants to go to this school, she said her parents have done everything they could, that should be enough for you. </p>
<p>“You also screwed up by not researching excellent schools that are much more generous with merit scholarships (more on that soon). But what is done is done”</p>
<p>I think this is an incredibly harsh way to talk to a high school girl for the crime of not having the foresight of a financial planner. I think she is seriously weighing her options and thinking about this in an incredibly rational, logical, and mature manner. I suppose you were better at 17? I know I wasn’t. I think we can show these kids a little more compassion and kindness.</p>
<p>@testadvice - You are welcome to your opinion. I stand by what I said. It wasn’t that harsh, and I absolutely didn’t beat up on her parents. Since this is not a personal conversation and there is a lot of time lag between responses and other people post in the meantime, it makes sense to try and cover several scenarios in one posting. As she admitted herself later, she left out a lot of information. Therefore one can only speculate to some degree.</p>
<p>A very bright (which she clearly is) high school junior is perfectly capable of finding out that schools like Duke cost a lot of money and are not very generous with non-need based aid. I see it all the time. If the parents were not straightforward with her regarding what they were able to pay, that would be another disservice they are accountable for. My kids knew exactly what the budget for college was and that they were well served looking for schools that were cost effective, be it through a lower sticker price or getting discounts through scholarships. Obviously something went wrong in the OP’s case. Who do you think is responsible? That is rhetorical, you don’t have to answer.</p>
<p>I also said somewhere in those posts that it is too late (for her, with respect to that particular issue) now anyway. She is where she is. But other people read these threads and if my blunt language causes even one high school junior (or younger) to approach their parents and/or to research schools with high merit money, or a parent reads it and decides to talk to their kid about it, then that is a good thing.</p>
<p>To answer your last question, I did know at 17 what I could and couldn’t afford for college. But my situation wasn’t typical for sure. I started working at 14 and pretty much paid for college myself, with the help of a scholarship. So naturally I was more aware. I don’t hold these kids to that standard, I wouldn’t wish that situation on anyone. But it doesn’t mean the opposite holds either. Complete ignorance of the financial aspect of college should not be entirely excused. But make no mistake, I blame parents for that much more than the kids.</p>
<p>I would also point out that the OP must not have been too insulted. We engaged in a few back and forth, very normal postings. So I don’t think you have to try and stick up for her, if that is what you are doing.</p>
<p>" The families that earn $100,000-$150,000, which just to repeat are a very large group within this set of high achieving students, often cannot afford full price. I would even say they usually cannot."</p>
<p>I wasn’t aware that there was no middle ground between a full scholarship and sticker price. I also wasnt aware that there was no middle ground between Duke and community college. Thanks for setting me straight. </p>
<p>(I was under the impression that Harvard is very affordable for parents who earn $100k/year, and many outstanding schools, albeit a level below one’s dream schools, offer full merit aid.)</p>
<p>@ariesathena Given that Harvard probably costs @$50,000 (or more – I’m guessing), that would be half of the gross salary of someone making $100k per year. Then, assume their disposable income is at best three-quarters of that, leaving $75,000 per year. The Harvard education would cost two-thirds of their net. That leaves them with $25,000/year to do everything else, including pay for housing. That doesn’t seem “very affordable” to me. Is that really what you were saying?</p>
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<p>If you are a high school junior now, then you may want to rearrange your application list to emphasize merit scholarships. Take a look at the sticky threads at the top of this financial aid and scholarships section. The automatic full tuition and full ride scholarship list should contain safety candidates. The competitive full tuition and full ride scholarship list should contain match and reach candidates.</p>
<p>Also, CSUs are not necessarily bad, but it depends on which CSU and your academic and professional goals.</p>
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<p><a href=“Net Price Calculator”>https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/net-price-calculator</a> indicates that with parental income of $100,000 and no student income or parental or student assets, Harvard’s net price is $12,600 ($8,000 parental contribution and $4,600 student contribution from student work earnings). This is after financial aid against a list price of $60,850.</p>
<p>Thanks for that, @ucbalumnus. I was responding to the question about whether or not Harvard is affordable on a $100k salary. I may have misunderstood @ariesathena’s post. I thought she was saying that Harvard was affordable out-of-pocket for a $100k family. Yes, you’re right. Harvard is probably very affordable for a $100k family, assuming they get a good bit of financial aid.</p>
<p>One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that in California it can be very hard for a student to get the necessary classes at a CC, CSU, or UC. Thus, graduating may take longer than two or four years, so the additional costs of our high room and board and opportunity costs need to be taken into consideration. Also, I think UC’s expected student contribution is higher than what is expected at private schools.</p>
<p>Oh, and some CCs are quite well-regarded and have a direct pipeline into particular UCs: Diablo Valley College, DeAnza, College of San Mateo, Santa Barbara City, and Santa Monica are the first ones that come to mind. Some CSUs are harder to get into than UCs for those who don’t live in the immediate vicinity such as San Diego State and Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. San Jose State is also pretty competitive. Those in rural areas are not nearly as competitive, but some have highly sought after programs so those programs are hard to get into.</p>
<p>Due to the above, I had DD apply to good (but not great) schools in the Midwest that gave out a lot of merit aid not all attached to grades/scores (hers weren’t stellar). Her other choice was schools in the South. Why? The lower cost of living in fly-over states meant that room and board would be closer to $8K vs. $16K on the coasts, so that lowered COA. Our family’s income is way lower than OP’s, so we qualify for financial aid. With two merit scholarships + FA, our cost is below a UC and not much higher than a CSU. I had DD take out Stafford loans for cash flow reasons, but I hope to help her repay them once she has graduated. She is on track to graduate in four years with a teaching credential – so she may be employed albeit not well-paid. And maybe she will work in a program where her loans will be forgiven since she wants to work in an urban district. (And yes, she attended an urban public high school and volunteered last summer at a program for at-risk rising eighth graders so she is not totally deluded.) </p>
<p>@PTigerMomAlum Yes, you misunderstood. It is a big stretch from “Harvard is affordable for parents who earn $100k a year” (direct quote) to “Parents who earn $100k a year can pay sticker for Harvard,” (paraphrased from your post) so I’m rather perplexed at your bizarre interpretation, but that is neither here nor there. </p>
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<p>While this can be true for CCs during state budget crunches (since the CCs cannot regulate student intake with an admissions process), this is overblown with respect to CSUs and UCs. Four year graduation rates mostly track admissions selectivity, indicating that late graduation is due to students not choosing courses properly, failing courses, needing remedial courses, etc… Some late graduations are benign, due to semesters or quarters off due to co-op jobs. I asked on the Berkeley forum section if anyone encountered delayed graduation due to not getting needed classes, and no one said that it was a problem (it was not a problem in my decades ago experience, when the four year graduation rate was under 40%). Some CSUs have four year graduation pledges, but relatively few students fulfill the basic requirements (take full course loads following their majors’ course plans, not needing remedial courses, not failing anything), so their four year graduation rates are under 25% or so.</p>
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<p>UCs’ in-state student contribution appears to be about $9,000 per year (with slight variation by campus). This is higher than that of schools with the most generous financial aid (e.g. HYPS), though there are a lot of private schools that often fall so far short of meeting need (e.g. NYU, BU) that one cannot generalize about private schools. $9,000 would require a federal direct loan and some work earnings.</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus - I would only caution that a College Confidential “survey” is hardly scientific and is likely to be highly skewed. Not only is the CC audience not random, the people that chose to answer you are not random Most people think the people on CC are brighter and more driven than the average student, and so are more likely to plan better and be more aggressive in getting the classes they need to graduate. My niece attends UCB and she says that a lot of students have trouble getting the classes they need to graduate in 4 years. That is also unscientific since it is anecdotal, but thought I would put that out there.</p>
<p>Given that Berkeley’s four year graduation rate is around 70% these days, the number of students who truthfully blame class availability must be a subset of the other 30%. And how many of the students who blame class availability are just making excuses for their own mistakes, like changing major late, not planning properly, or not taking full course loads? Berkeley’s class registration system also gives everyone a chance to choose about half of his/her schedule before anyone gets to choose the other half, and classes can and do reserve seats for students in specific majors and the like to ensure that students majoring in the subject can find space in the classes that they need. Majors for which popularity reaches class capacity get capped for enrollment.</p>
<p>Note that UCLA’s four year graduation rate is about 70%, but its twelve quarter graduation rate is about 81%. I.e. a substantial number of the “late” graduates there do not actually take extra time in school, but may have taken a quarter off of school (perhaps to work to earn money or gain experience in a co-op job).</p>
<p>@ariesathena I acknowledged in both my original and in my follow-up that I might have misunderstood your point. However, I don’t think my interpretation was “bizarre”. Based on your comments, Harvard is then affordable for everybody given the existence of financial aid. So, yes. Of course it is affordable on a $100k income - and on a $50k income and even a $25k income. But, it’s more complicated than that, isn’t it? And thus my original confusion about what you were saying. </p>