<p>Counting on Harvard’s generous financial aid to be able to afford college is ludicrious. Have you seen their acceptance rate? That’s true of a lot of full ride scholarships too. Each of the directionals in Michigan give 5 or 6 of those and the competition is fierce for them. Not everybody can go to Bama. </p>
<p>@ucbalumnus - You could well be right, I am not disputing any of your conclusions. I am just saying that the evidence you presented isn’t really conclusive because the methodology of relying on CC posters to prove the point is clearly flawed. That’s all. I actually rather suspect you are right. It would be interesting to see a breakdown by major as to who doesn’t graduate in 4 years the most often, and work backwards from there to see how often class availability was really an issue.</p>
<p>I have also heard there are some complaints from the faculty that in order to avoid this issue, they have raised the cap on some class sizes. Any idea how much truth there might be to that?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Research universities can relatively easily increase capacity in lower level courses as long as there are enough graduate students to hire as TAs (the limiting factor for some courses is classroom size and lab space). Upper level courses may not be as easily expandable, because more of them do not use TAs, and those which do use TAs require more specialized knowledge on the part of the TA (i.e. you need a PhD student in that subarea of the major), but upper level course enrollment can be gated by capping the major’s enrollment and giving registration priority to majors.</p>
<p>LACs which promise small faculty-led courses would need to hire adjuncts to cope with an unexpected increase in enrollment demand for a course. Or just make up reasons to get students to drop the course, as described in this thread: <a href=“No Calc 101 for you! - Parents Forum - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1556885-no-calc-101-for-you-p1.html</a> . This is probably less likely at the wealthier LACs that people on these forums mostly talk about and prefer, since the wealthier LACs are more likely to have sufficient faculty capacity.</p>
<p>I am going to Cal Poly in-state and still really stressed out over loans… is this justified? A lot of people on here only say privates cost too much, but $23k or whatever a year still seems like a lot of money</p>
<p>$23k seemed like a lot to me, as well, but that’s what it costs at my son’s MidWest (non-flagship) state university. I guess I had not paid much attention to state college costs until it was time for our family to start the college process. Now, I think that amount might be fairly standard.</p>
<p>$50,000 in loans to get a BS. Do you guys think that’s excessive for a STEM major? </p>
<p>@Lana Please be aware that all STEMs are not equal. I am a ChemEng and I would say BS prospects in that field are different from biology which requires grad school. If you can, decide how long your education road and use that as one factor to answer that question.</p>
<p>@LanaHere What are all of the available options? What major? (STEM isn’t a major; it is a very broad category.) Are there co-op opportunities? How will impact the family economically?</p>
<p>Some students have the option of graduating with minimal debt from a lower ranked school and have an equal opportunity for a high paying job as someone who attended a much more expensive option. It depends on where they applied, whether there is merit $$ offered, etc.</p>
<p>We can’t take on that kind of debt for our kids and certainly don’t want to see them start off with that kind of debt. Our oldest is a chemical engineer that went to a small state tech university that was very inexpensive and he now works for a Fortune 500 company that recruits from small regional schools as much as the big name engineering schools. He graduated w/no debt and had a great co-op experience, etc and there is no difference between him and the employees that went to the top ranked engineering schools.</p>
<p>Our current 12th grader was accepted to great schools but will be attending a state flagship on full scholarship (he has earned multiple scholarships from UA that stack and will cover all of his expenses.) He could have gone to a much higher ranked school, but we would have had to take out loans. Finances had to drive the decision making process for us.</p>
<p>This is a very family scenario specific decision. We are one of those families that can’t meet our EFC realistically b/c we have a very large family and it would devastate us financially if we accrued that kind of debt.</p>
<p>Hi @Mom2aphysicsgeek, Thanks !!</p>
<p>@Mom2aphysics - Not that you asked for my opinion, but I think the decision to avoid the debt and stick with the state flagship for free or close to free is really, really wise. If he really is a physics major or something similar, he will most likely being going on to grad school anyway, where for science majors all costs are also covered, at least as far as I have ever seen. So if having a name like Stanford or MIT is important for his career goals, that is where he would be well advised to attain his PhD. The undergrad name becomes far less important anyway, and he will be thankful forever for starting out his professional life with no academic debt.</p>
<p>@Mom2aphysicsgeek </p>
<p>If D attends CWRU, after the University and outside scholarships and grants, she will accumulate $50,000 in loan debts in 4 yrs.
If she attends Missouri University of Science & Technology, in 4 yrs, she’ll be $25,000 in debt. </p>
<p>Rankings:
Missouri University of Science & Technology :128 (US News); 443 (Forbes); Side Note: It has been said that MO S&T is underrated. </p>
<p>CWRU - 37 (US News); 89 (Forbes) </p>
<p>Employment within 6 months:
MO S&T 62%
CWRU 86% </p>
<p>D loves research & was a paid Research Lab Assistant last summer.
CWRU is well known for opportunities for research. </p>
<p>If D attends:
- CWRU, she’ll most likely major in Chem E or Biomedical E, either way with premed track.
(A Bachelors in Science in Biomedical E doesn’t do much if you’re not accepted into medical school, right?)</p>
<ul>
<li>MO S&T, she’ll major in Chem E or BioChemical E with premed track.</li>
</ul>
<p>D is very much concerns about grade deflation, maintaining a good GPA (3.7 or higher) for medical school acceptance, and loan indebtedness.</p>
<p>Giving up a spot at a high ranking University like CWRU would be a heart broken one.
Visited both campus and D has a lot of LOVE for CWRU.</p>
<p>According to D:
- CWRU campus is more modern and very nice. D did an overnight visit and went rock climbing. Met very friendly students.
- MO S&T has a brand new Chem E building. When I say brand new, they’re still building it, but it will be finished in August 2014 when D enters school. Ozarks atmosphere. Very safe but just old. ( I keep emphasizing old because it’s really really old). </p>
<p>D loves CWRU
D likes MO S&T</p>
<p>Everyone’s opinion is welcomed.</p>
<p>Correction: </p>
<p>Employment within 6 months of graduation.
MO S&T 62%
CWRU 86%</p>
<p>I left out “of graduation”.</p>
<p>Everyone’s opinion is welcomed.</p>
<p>I need to mention that Missouri University of Science & Technology former name is University of Missouri at Rolla.
It’s in Rolla, MO.</p>
<p>
A bit off topic, but this really is not true at academically strong colleges.</p>
<p>Can OP take a gap year and reapply more strategically so that the choices aren’t crippling debt or a college that won’t fit her needs?</p>
<p>If med school is the plan, you want as little undergrad debt as possible, and a “Plan B” if med school doesn’t work out.</p>
<p>I understand it’s important to minimize loans if med school is in the plan, and it is, but CWRU Engineering students are well prepared. I just wonder it is worth the extra $25,000 in loans (4 yrs of course).</p>
<p>For ex. All CWRU Engineering students are required to take SAGE seminars, which consists of some liberal arts classes and 4 yrs of writing. Students have to create a writing portfolio which later will be reviewed by professors, prior to graduation. They also have to take 1 semester of Physical Education.</p>
<p>@LanaHere - I am very familiar with S&T, my wife is a Rolla native and her brother is a graduate of that school, back when it as UM Rolla. He is civil engineer. Just out of curiosity, where did you get those employment figures? I am not questioning them (well the S&T one seems low) but I just cannot find them.</p>
<p>That aside, yours is a very difficult case. Normally I would almost reflexively say go with the lower loan amount. $25K is usually easy to handle, $50K is usually more than a student should start their professional life with. But in this case you have a daughter that is either going to be an engineer or a doctor, at least as it now stands. There is always the risk that she will change her mind, or just not be able to make the grades. I know no one likes hearing that last statement about their own kid, but of course I don’t know your daughter. I am just covering the bases. But let’s be optimistic and assume that even if she drops the med school path, she does become an engineer. To answer your one question, a BS in BME is still a good degree and there are definitely employment opportunities out there in the field with excellent pay. That having been said, if she did go on to grad school in BME, it wouldn’t cost her anything. Most programs waive tuition and fees and pay a stipend to PhD students in that field, enough to cover room and board usually.</p>
<p>Anyway, my point is that with starting salaries for engineers being healthy and looking like they will stay that way for some time, the $50K won’t be the worst thing in the world. Obviously less is better, but the key is that the payments would be manageable. She just might have to put off buying that first house for a while, depending on the rest of her circumstances. Given that she likes CWRU much better, which is important, then it seems to me to be the better choice.</p>
<p>Let’s say she changes her mind about being an engineer and doctor. At least Case is also known for good departments in other areas, such as business. S&T not so much, her choices would be much more limited. And Cleveland does indeed offer more opportunities than a rural setting like Phelps County. St. Louis is 2 hours away. Which of course is another aspect to consider. Cleveland might not be NYC, but Rolla is very quiet with little for students outside of the college. Cleveland certainly offers more.</p>
<p>Let’s now look at if she does go on to med school. Not to trivialize another $25,000 in debt, but she will probably have to go another $300,000 or so in debt to attend med school, yes? Or let’s even say that due to family money and/or scholarships, it is an additional $200,000. So will it really matter that much if the total debt is $350,000 vs. $325,000 (or $250,000 vs. $225,000)? Only you and your daughter can decide overall what it is worth for her to be in a place she feels she will be happier in and therefore be more likely to do better in her classes. I think if it were me, and believe me I am a debt hawk so I am a bit shocked I am saying this, but if it were me I think I would pick Case given the particulars of the situation as you have described them. Having said that, should you decide to save the money and go the S&T route, it is a fine school and the people are extremely friendly and helpful. She will get an excellent education at either. But the non-academic factors are important as well. They are not in class 24/7.</p>
<p>@fallenchemist, hi! Can you please copy and paste your reply to this new thread? </p>
<p><a href=“Two good schools admissions, two financial concerns: Can't decide which school. - #17 by juillet - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums”>Two good schools admissions, two financial concerns: Can't decide which school. - #17 by juillet - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums;
<p>
Same here. Given the particulars of the situation, I’d take the risk and pick Case.
How do YOU feel about it though?</p>
<p>@LanaHere
Is your child being offered merit money from Case? Ds’s merit offer from Case was a fixed dollar amt. So, if cost of attendance goes up, so does your child’s cost. Some of the scholarships our ds received were in terms of “cost of tuition” where the wording means that the amt is not fixed and will rise if costs rise. </p>
<p>When we looked at Case, the numbers posted on their website for last yr and the numbers quoted in our ds’s financial aid package, IIRC, there were a few thousand dollars difference in total COA. (I can’t remember exactly, but I am thinking it was the difference of $57000 and $61000 total COA per yr—something around 3-4000 difference. We wondered if that was the typical increase per yr. With a fixed merit scholarship, by his sr yr, if costs went up a few thousand each yr, it could have been significant by his sr yr and added to his over all debt.</p>
<p>Since he eliminated Case from his options, we didn’t really investigate it further. But I thought I would point it as something that might be worth asking about if it would be a concern.</p>