The Merits and Demerits of Liberal Arts Colleges

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvey Mudd College
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<p>I personally think that attending a liberal arts college would be a great experience.</p>

<p>The class sizes are small so you're probably more motivated to learn (for one, you won't be able to fall asleep in class as easily :P), and you'd probably be able to get more out of it than if it was being taught to a class of 500 (maybe I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that you'd get more of a chance to ask questions if you don't understand something and things like that), especially since you'll be able to get to personally know the professors. Plus, there wouldn't be as much competition for internships and things like that. And with a greater emphasis on undergraduates, the teaching quality is probably very up to par :)</p>

<p>The student body would be small enough so that you would know nearly everyone and everyone would know you. Maybe it's just me, but I like that in a school, being able to see lots of familiar faces and to actually know everyone on a level that goes beyond "oh I've seen her/him in my class before... I think." And I feel like I would sort of drown in a sea of people at a college with 50,000 something students. I guess the downside to this would be if you hated most of the people there.</p>

<p>But my mom completely disagrees with me and has more or less banned me from applying to one. She claims that because it is not as well known (she's never heard of Harvey Mudd), it won't be as good, and in the future, employers/companies won't recognize it as much as say, Columbia. And because it's smaller, it will have less money, which means it will have less resources and less opportunities to offer.</p>

<p>Sorry for this extremely lengthy post, but these are the main points of the two sides of an argument that is currently ongoing in my house... and I was just wondering if anyone out there would like to share their opinions? :)</p>

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<p>It’s all about ratio of resources to students. There are tons of tiny classes at my school, which is huge as a whole.</p>

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<p>PM someone like rocketDA, many alumni claim that in math/science/engineering fields, Mudd is well-recognized by employers. The average person probably hasn’t heard of it, however.</p>

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<p>Again, this is relative. It’s smaller, and is a purely undergrad school, hence it will likely have less money, but the conclusion => less opportunities is flawed reasoning, because Mudd concentrates all that it does on its undergraduates. Now if ultimately the ratio of resources to students is poor, in your opinion, you can forget about the school, but for that, you have to talk to actual people who know, and there’s little way of knowing it in advance.</p>

<p>What I would say is that a larger school probably has more in terms of breadth of offerings, and there are more flexible paths one could take through one’s education. You need to figure out if the education you get in Mudd is what you want, and show your mom evidence that employers do know the school. Also know that it’s a uniformly hard school, with a very specific kind of student body. The issue of fit is less present at a bigger school with a less specific kind of educational goal.</p>

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<p>“a uniformly hard school, with a very specific kind of student body.”</p>

<p>Mathboy, could you elaborate on this?? I think I get what you mean, but just to be sure.</p>

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<p>Harvey Mudd is a bit stingy with financial aid (a friend of mine got little to no FA from Harvey Mudd but a full ride at Cal), so please take that into consideration. </p>

<p>Anyway, just wanted to say that there was a Huffington Post list about highest paid grads… Harvey Mudd topped the list. :slight_smile: If you can find it and show it to your mom that might make her reconsider? </p>

<p>G’luck!</p>

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<p>Warrior, here’s my clarification - </p>

<ul>
<li><p>“uniform difficulty” refers to how many “easier” majors and paths someone can take. At Mudd, everyone has to go through a tough core, and practically everyone is doing hard math/science/engineering.</p></li>
<li><p>“specific kind of student” refers to the fact that you have to be OK with that kind of education. E.g. Mudd is probably concentrated with talent in technical fields, and likely has some unique student culture to go with the small, specific kind of student body. Go to a large school, and there’s more of the “something for everyone” sort of thing happening.</p></li>
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<p>You should find the endowment/student ratio to show that LACs have enough money and the Payscale study should be good enough to show that LAC graduates can get good jobs. Otherwise, tell her to look at the SAT score ranges of some LACs and ask her if she thinks all those students (and their parents) are throwing their lives and money away by going to a LAC. LACs wouldn’t exist if they couldn’t deliver. You could also find the phd admit data, which is chock full of LACs, to demonstrate that clearly graduate programs consider LACs to be capable of preparing a student.</p>

<p>Specifically for Mudd you might have an easier time convincing her due to Mudd topping several lists, but it’s certainly true the average person hasn’t heard of it. But its presence on the Payscale and phd admit lists should indicate that industry and grad programs know what Mudd is capable of. As for financial aid, they meet nearly all need based aid and has some merit aid. I didn’t know Cal gave full rides, unless it’s entirely need based?</p>

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<p>Wow, thanks everyone for replying so quickly! :)</p>

<p>@mathboy98, I’m not sure if you go to Mudd, but do you happen to know what kind of students Mudd looks for? I see what you mean about Mudd probably having a more specific kind of student body and a more focused direction in education. And I don’t really know all that much about the atmosphere or anything at Mudd, but it seems to be one of those you either love it or hate it kind of situations?</p>

<p>@rchhay and @Suin, thanks for the tips! Good to know Mudd is pretty well recognized by employers and graduate schools :)</p>

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<p>@Suin: Yes, it was need-based aid for Cal, however I believe there are Regent’s or something in the UC system–or is that just for UCLA?</p>

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<p>@Suin, rcchay, whoever else reads this, hopefully someone can answer? :)</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Because Mudd has no graduate program, and I think research usually involves graduate students, does that mean there will be less research being done there?</p></li>
<li><p>Since Mudd is so small, would that mean that you would have less of the opportunities that other colleges boast, such as internships, studying abroad, etc?</p></li>
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<ol>
<li><p>Graduate students do research, but research does not require graduate students, just a professor. There may be less overall research being done at Mudd, but there is certainly enough for an eager student to do as much as he or she wants. The school has fewer professors than universities but also has far fewer students, and can therefore have professors working directly with students. The breadth of the research being done is undoubtedly narrower given there are fewer professors to span their field, but the generally areas are easily covered.</p></li>
<li><p>I’m pretty sure study abroad is solely dependent on the student, I’ve known many people go study abroad and I haven’t heard of anyone not going because of limitations on the part of the college. I don’t quite know what you mean by internships, those are generally found outside of your school at companies. There are summer research positions available, but again, Mudd is considered a small school, but people don’t take into account that it has 750 students, which is itself a smaller number, so you have far less competition for the comparatively small number of available slots.</p></li>
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<p>As for the type of student at Mudd, everyone is required to go through a very tough and broad core curriculum, encompassing more than you’ll ever want to know about physics, chemistry, math with some biology, computer science, and engineering as well. You won’t be able to do it all by yourself and you will likely be humbled, but if you work hard with some friends you should be able to get through it. And then you do your major. Basically, you’re tortured for 4 years and have to be able to withstand the pain, but you’ll be with like-minded individuals who are passionate about math/science/engineering, which is nice.</p>

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<p>@mathboy: Oh, got it. Nothing new there ;)</p>

<p>@charizarrd: Hi, I’m a high school senior & wanna-be Mudder. If you want to see for yourself what Mudd is like, I absolutely recommend visiting it on your own. I sat in a sophomore linear algebra class at Mudd once, and I was AMAZED at how the professor explained concepts so well, made sure his students understood them, and even reminded them of their homework assignment! I’ve never see this quality of interaction and attention even in my high school. </p>

<p>My parents had the same worries as yours did when I first told them my plans for Mudd. Even though Mudd is 20 minutes away from my house, they had never heard of the name. But when I told them about the graduates’ starting salaries, PhD production rates, and the Clinic Program, they let me have my Early Decision 1 plan for Mudd and are now pretty supportive of it. Their only complaint about Mudd is that it is too small; they want me to go to a bigger school where I can meet more people. But I work best at small, quiet, suburban schools settings, so Mudd’s environment is just so perfect for me and my parents completely gave in. :)</p>

<p>Visit Mudd, take a campus tour, sit in a class, eat lunch in the cafeteria, and speak with the admissions people. It will help you so much in making up your mind about Mudd. Good luck!</p>

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<p>* @mathboy98, I’m not sure if you go to Mudd, but do you happen to know what kind of students Mudd looks for? I see what you mean about Mudd probably having a more specific kind of student body and a more focused direction in education.*</p>

<p>I am not a Mudd student, but I was considering it some years ago. I was your typical student who had a 4.0 UW GPA, high standardized test scores, and lots of advanced classes. A common trend I noticed was many of my friends who got in had high standardized test scores. Some of them had some math/science extracurricular involvement, others not so much. All were intelligent at math/science.</p>

<p>I vaguely recall writing something mentioning the honor code system in essays.</p>

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<p>Suin says, “if you work hard with some friends you should be able to get through it. And then you do your major. Basically, you’re tortured for 4 years and have to be able to withstand the pain, but you’ll be with like-minded individuals who are passionate about math/science/engineering, which is nice.” (post #10)</p>

<p>Really? That doesn’t sound so good. “Tortured for 4 years?”</p>

<p>Many, many years ago, I went to a school where you were tortured for 4 years. I learned a lot, gained a lot of confidence in some areas, lost some confidence in other areas, and got a great job that I enjoy to this day, thanks (only in part) to the degree from that particular school. I work with people every day that got the same job coming from different, non-torturous schools. And there have certainly been ways that I’ve paid the price for giving up some of my youth while I worked my butt off for 4 years. There are ways that I’m still paying the price, in all honesty. (Granted, the school I went to had/has a worse reputation for “torture,” than Mudd.)</p>

<p>But here’s my point … is all that torture a good idea for kids? Are kids having a good time while there? Are they able to get out and see the world? Explore other areas of interest? Socialize, date, just generally have FUN? Or is it primarily torture, to a large, unbalanced degree, for 4 whole years? Or do people there just refer to it as “torture” when they really mean it’s harder and requires more work than most colleges, but it’s not really so bad?</p>

<p>When reading college guide books, the website, Mudd viewbooks, etc, Mudd sounds like such a great match for my son. It sounds perfect.</p>

<p>But whenever I come over to the CC Mudd threads and do a little reading, I hear about how hard everybody has to work, all the time, and I begin to think … “hmmm. Maybe not so much.” </p>

<p>My son does not want to attend a place that’s all work, work, work. He wants time to enjoy other healthy things. And I don’t want him at a place that’s all about work and perfection and striving 24-7. As I said, I’ve lived that life. In my opinion, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. Hard work is GREAT. Working 24-7, for the most part, not so good!</p>

<p>I wish we had a crystal ball or could be flies on the wall so we could see for ourselves whether it’s as hard as it’s made out to be on these threads. We haven’t had a chance to visit yet, but I fear that even when we do, we won’t get a real sense for just how hard you all work. Torture? Or just hard work? I want to know!!! ;-)</p>

<p>Sometimes I think, “Well, he’s got perfect to near-perfect stats, with very little effort. He hasn’t struggled with any academics to date. Maybe he won’t struggle at Mudd and will be able to do both – get an excellent education there AND have plenty of fun.” There were, after all, a very, very small number of kids at my college, many years ago, who did not have to work as hard as the other 99% of us to keep afloat. But then I think, “Nah. Chances are, nearly everyone there has similar stats with similar backgrounds. If it’s torture for them, it’s going to be torture for him. And what are the chances that he would be the one kid who doesn’t have to work his butt off to survive?” All I ever hear is how darned hard it is.</p>

<p>Your thoughts? (I would particularly love to hear from any of you out there who find that you DON’T have to work that hard all the time!)</p>

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<p>It’s certainly quite difficult but I had plenty of time for fun. Then again I’m not the most dedicated “student” type, so it really depends on how much you want to work for the grades. If you’re ok with not having a 3.8+ then it’s certainly manageable, given you have the required level of competence. How hard you have to work really depends on your intelligence (which is hard to quantify or describe, but certainly a factor) and the grades you want to get. If you’re ok with being average with a B+, there’s certainly more room for fun, though you’ll always have homework waiting for you when you’re done.</p>

<p>I would say it gets a bit easier after the first year and a half, though again I’m not the most hardworking individual. To give you a brief idea of the work compared to the other 5Cs at least, they all take 4 classes per semester, we have to average a little over 5. And then most of our classes are technical and taught at a higher level than the others, making it even more difficult.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Suin. That’s a pretty good description. But then why’d you say “torture?” And why do other people describe it that way?</p>

<p>What you just described sounds like hard work – especially compared to a lot of other schools, but not “torture.” You’re not placating me now, are you? ;-)</p>

<p>My son is in the top 1/2-1% statistically, all across the academic-stats board. He is not one to prep for anything. So far, his scores and grades have just come easy to him. He loves math and science, particularly chemistry. He also loves all the other core classes. Physics is probably his least favorite – but that could have been the teacher. (Still, he got the usual 100.) Could HM be “fun” for him? He could expect “torture” the first year? (I don’t think he’d care too much about being a B+ student. He’s pretty laid back. But he’s never had a B before, so I don’t know for sure how he’d feel about it! Frustrated?)</p>

<p>We just can’t afford, literally, for him to make a mistake in his college choice. He’ll pretty much need to stay wherever he goes. To keep any scholarships that come his way.</p>

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<p>I don’t know how rigorous his high school is, but he sounds more or less like me (except I hate chemistry). You might want to see if he minds a 3.3 overall gpa, though probably around 3.0 or even lower (2.7?) after the first semester or two (not saying that will happen, but it is the case for at least half the class). Perhaps not “torture” but not just hard work, VERY VERY HARD AND A WHOLE DAMN LOT of work. Plus, three semester of physics and two semester of physics lab, starting with special relativity and some quantum. Ah, and not prepping will almost certainly result in a C or lower.</p>

<p>I don’t regret going to Harvey Mudd at all though, and the name recognition with grad schools and scientific firms that comes along with it (in some parts of the country) is significant. If he’s accepted and knows he wants to study math/science/engineering he can’t go wrong, but he better be prepared.</p>

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<p>^He attends a very rigorous, large public. He trades off #1 or #2 of about 800 kids. All AP core. The usual CC “suspect.”</p>

<p>When I said he didn’t prep, I really meant for his standardized tests – PSAT, SAT, ACT, etc. He did prep a little for his SAT Subject tests. He does his homework every night and reviews for his tests. He doesn’t blow stuff off. He just isn’t a hard-core, anxious studier. He pays attention in class, does all his homework, and then reveiws just a little for every high school test, but not for very long. Compared to his siblings, who took the same courses at the same schools, he just doesn’t have to work very hard and gets pretty much straight 100s year after year.</p>

<p>Hhhmmm. I sure wish I were a fly on the wall there. Very, very hard work and a whole lot of it … can’t decide if that would be torture for him or not. I guess it wouldn’t be as long as he still had enough down-time to socialize and do other things.</p>

<p>I will definitely take your suggestion and ask him if he would mind a 3.0, 3.3, or even a 2.7. Since he’s so laid back, I don’t think he will. (That’s exactly how my college was long ago. All students were big fish from their small ponds in high school. They couldn’t all be at the top in college. I was generally very happy with my grades, no matter what they were – and they were often in one of those same 3 ranges. I know Mudd is naturally the same way.)</p>

<p>What WILL bother him, I’m sure, is if he has to study, study, study all the time, or even the vast majority of the time, for 4 years, and can’t have any balance in his life. He, nor I, believe in a life of work, work, work.</p>

<p>Thanks so much for your explanations, Suin. I want so much to know what it’s like there and what his life would be like there, in terms of work vs. play.</p>

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<p>Mudders generally “work hard, play hard”. An alternative way to put this is Mudders do everything with intensity, including studying, working, and partying.</p>

<p>Does you son have a hobby? It helps to balance studying with sports, gaming, arts, community service or ? Many Mudders are into music. My son was part of a rock band while at Mudd, and they still play together a year after graduation.</p>

<p>Students have to work hard to learn all that is being thrown at them, but they do find ways for social activities, too.</p>

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<p>I posted a similar thread almost a year ago. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvey-mudd-college/803996-happy-hmc.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvey-mudd-college/803996-happy-hmc.html&lt;/a&gt; My son is still in love with Mudd, though he doesn’t attend yet. I have the same concerns you do, but this thread allayed them somewhat.</p>

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<p>^Thanks for the link, GeekMom. I’m glad to hear of someone else with the same fears. The two of us can’t be the only ones. HM sounds so good! But we’re always reading on CC how horribly hard it is. </p>

<p>^^Yes, Miles. My son is an all-state musician – orchestra, and is very into it. (obviously?) It takes a ton of his time, all year long. He also plays paid and unpaid gigs, which he usually organizes himself. He’s also into community service. And, he’s into just hanging out with his friends – at the local book store, coffee shops, going to movies, playing pick-up basketball, board games, Xbox, walking around the lake, etc. Just plain old “hanging.” Definitely NOT a partier.</p>

<p>I would not at all describe him as a “work hard, play hard” type of kid. More like: work without any anxiety or oversight, or any intensity at all, really, to finish his school work, music, & chores, and then either read (really avid reader), or play Xbox, or hang out with a group of friends (his favorite thing), or play more music, etc. He’s VERY laid back and enjoys a pretty understated life. He sees his friends often and hangs with his family often. He would not be happy in a “party hard” group. (but would not be judgmental or upset about people who choose to spend their time that way; he knows plenty of kids like that now and gets along with them fine at school – but they’re not his type and he does not spend time with any of them outside of school) He’s kind of a nerd, in the sense that the things he likes to do with his time are kind of “bookish” or “adult-like.” But he’s not socially awkward or nerdy in THAT sense of the word. He’s got a ton of friends and speaks to adults and teachers as though he were one, in a way.</p>

<p>Does he maybe not sound like a Mudder when I describe him this way? He is not intense about anything, actually. He’s very laid back, but high-achieving, I guess because of his wide range of interests and some brain power, not because he’s always striving for the next accomplishment, if you know what I mean. Are there plenty of non-partying, but still very social people there at Mudd? (I know that everybody at Mudd is “high-achieving.”) Would he be the “odd man out” at Mudd, due to his lack of intensity? Or are there plenty of people like him there? He’s the pleasant, kind, thoughtful type; the kid that everybody seems to call for help on their homework, or to get clarification on an assignment or a due date, or to bring an extra bow tie or shirt to the concert, or to give them a last-minute ride to an event, etc. THAT kind of kid. Am I describing someone non-Muddish? Or does he sound Muddy enough? ;-)</p>