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CA: what schools are you targeting? Indeed with a 3.7GPA barring any extreme circumstances, you’re not normally considered viable for the most selective colleges – that’s true. The next step is yours however and you have many options.</p>
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<p>A student can ask their guidance counselor for their opinion. Often times GC’s know the writing style of teachers, as they might have seen the teacher’s recommendation from a prior year for another student. In addition, as part of their job, GC’s have regular conferences with teachers about a student’s progress – so it’s the job of the GC to know (a) how a student is doing and (b) what teachers think of a student. </p>
<p>For example, my son wanted to ask his physics teacher for a recommendation. My son had received an A in physics from the teacher for both semesters his junior year, he had taught several mini-lessons in the teacher’s class and had been nominated by the teacher (who could only put one name forward in a graduating class of 840 students) for the school’s internal award in physics. The physics teacher seemed like a wonderful choice to my son. </p>
<p>I had concerns though because the teacher’s first language was not English and when we had parent-teacher conferences, the teacher’s spoken English was very broken and clipped saying things like “Son straight A, best in class, good boy.” </p>
<p>I suggested that my son ask his GC if she thought the physics teacher would be a good choice for a recommendation writer. The GC, who had seen the quality of the teacher’s writing, suggested that my son would be better off asking anyone else for a rec. </p>
<p>The GC suggested an English teacher who my son had for his 1st semester junior year. My son was initially hesitant; although he had received an A in the English teacher’s class, he was concerned because he’d only had the teacher for one semester. The GC reassured my son that that was okay and said “Besides, he absolutely loves you.” When my son asked how she knew, the GC replied “teachers talk outside of the classroom about their favorite students.” </p>
<p>Long-story short, the English teacher, who didn’t know my son that well, made him come to his classroom an hour before school started for 2 weeks, so they could spend time together outside of the classroom. Afterwards the teacher wrote a glowing recommendation for my son and gave him a copy of the letter. I’m convinced that one of the reasons my son was admitted to 10 out of his 11 colleges was because of this one teacher’s stellar recommendation. I strongly doubt that would have been the case if my son had not consulted his GC and gone with his first choice.</p>
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Colleges are academic institutions and their primary concern is a student’s scholastic potential. Although EC’s are important, student’s are not admitted just because of their EC’s. To be admitted to a top college, an applicant needs to have the “full package” and EC’s help to distinguish an applicant when Admissions is choosing between several top candidates. Does your high school have Naviance or some other college applications tracking system? The best way to gauge your chances is to look at school specific data. Has anyone with your GPA (regardless of ACT/SAT score and EC’s) been admitted to the school’s on your list? If so, then you have a chance – how much of a chance though is anyone’s guess.</p>
<p>Based on my experiences. 3 children who attended different high schools but all went, or are attending consensus top 10 schools. After what I would call qualifying gpa and test scores. Academic rigor in comparison to the other students at your school. Teacher recommendations, what they say and don’t say is important to the separation necessary with so many outstanding students in direct competition for so few spots. EC’s have become like grades and test scores, everybody is doing something. Essays matter, students who have excellent stats give away points on their essay. Interviews are just affirming but you can screw yourself if it goes poorly. Knowledge of the school it can permeate through your application even with schools who claim that level of interest is not part of the process. It helps if you’ve done something extraordinary but most students haven’t. It’s important that all facets of your application gleam, a poor essay or a soft choice academically or a perfunctory teacher’s rec can become a separator in a negative fashion. </p>
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<p>Unfortunately, our school is extremely small. We have also only had Naviance for a few years now. When it comes to top 20 schools, a majority of the applicants (and we usually have a total of 30-50 applicants total over a few years, yet like half of that that appear on the scattergram) have been rejected, and it’s usually only the 2300-2400 SAT and 3.9-4.0 GPA people who have been accepted. The problem, though, that I see is that, regarding EC’s, nobody ever really does something above average, let alone exceptional. I literally never hear about anyone doing research. The only person I’ve heard doing an internship over the summer besides me is my pseudo-Valedictorian friend (because we don’t rank). Even the most “exceptional” people, like who got into Harvard a few years back, didn’t do anything amazing. She just piled on a bunch of average EC’s and just bloated her application enough for that alone to be impressive.</p>
<p>Our school doesn’t even have a majority of the clubs that other schools enjoy. Before my freshman year, the only extracurricular clubs that actually got involved outside of school were Academic Decathlon and Mock Trial. No FBLA, no HOSA, no MUN. What I’m saying here is that I can’t tell if the people who were rejected were rejected largely due to their lack of comparable EC’s. The unfortunate thing is that our school is located in a predominantly white, privileged community; it’s just that above average people turn into exceptional people relative to each other.</p>
<p>I was hoping that my EC’s, admittedly not stellar either (but they’re something more than just Key Club), would be able to help me out a bit (though I didn’t even find out about a majority of the competitions or summer programs until just about last month). I was going to try salvaging my chances broken by an unnecessarily hard AP class sophomore year with an upward trend and everything; however, now I’m kind of discouraged because it’s almost as if applying to the majority of the colleges would be futile. /sad (I’m still applying regardless, so don’t worry)</p>
<p>I used private counseling for D2. They had a committee (think tank) that was made up of ex-adcoms from HYPS. They gave D2 periodic write-up of what she needed to focus on. For each of those write-up, it consistently said “Keep up your GPA.” It was assumed D2 was going to take the most rigorous course load, but it was extremely important for her to maintain her GPA. They would advise her on her ECs, summer programs and test schedules, but they always ended with telling her to focus on her GPA. They said she could dress up her ECs and find teachers to write glowing LORs, but there was no where to hide with subpar GPA. After that was test scores.</p>
<p>Unless your research is something extraordinary such that it wins some type of national award (Intel semi finalist, etc) then it’s “value” is really no better than another student’s EC in research (or sports, drama, debate, music, art etc) so it’s difficult to say how much of impact it might have on your application.</p>
<p>The telling factor for me, as it was for oldforts kids, is your GPA. At my son and daughter’s high school, which uses a proprietary software program to track college acceptances, over the last 12 years, HYPSM has not taken one student with an average below 93 – not one, no matter what test scores, EC’s or even legacy status. So that information is very telling – just like at your HS where Harvard took kids with a 3,9-4.0, but not a 3.7.</p>
<p>Bottom line: A student’s EC’s do not “make up” for their GPA.</p>
<p>@gibby That is understandable. I just mentioned the EC’s because they are nonetheless a factor for admissions; I’m just not sure as to how far previous applicants from my school pursued and developed their EC’s.</p>
<p>As for Harvard… We’ve only actually had 2/49 applicants accepted over 5 years. The sample size is quite small, but I agree that they have to be outstanding to be admitted. What I mentioned though was top 20 schools in general. We have very few that have been admitted across 5 years, with 30-50 applicants for each of them, yet maybe an average of ~4 actually being accepted.</p>
<p>For a few of them, some of these ~4 do have lower GPA’s and SAT’s, though, which makes me think they probably have hooks. I’m just wondering why colleges say their admissions are “holistic” when they first make cuts based on GPA/scores/rigor alone and THEN look into subjectives. It’s quite a bit misleading, isn’t it?</p>
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The applications process has always been somewhat of a mystery. A student with a lower GPA could be admitted (over other students who have higher GPA’s and test scores) for many reasons, including their essay, teacher recommendations, guidance counselor’s SSR, EC’s, being a first-generation student, URM, legacy, athletic recruit, or developmental case (big $$ donor). It would be helpful if the process was more transparent, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.</p>
<p>One question that I have as a rising senior…are you allowed to see your recommendations?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/documents/UG_Admissions_TeacherEvaluation.pdf”>http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/documents/UG_Admissions_TeacherEvaluation.pdf</a></p>
<p>When you complete the teacher recommendation form on the Common Application (see above for an old paper version) student’s are asked to check the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) waiver that waives your right to see the recommendation. </p>
<p>Generally speaking, teachers feel more comfortable submitting a recommendation that student’s will not see, as they can be more forthright and honest. In addition, when colleges receive a recommendation where the student has not waived their rights, they tend to start “reading between the lines” of what teachers are saying, understanding that the student might one day see the rec. Personally, I think it’s best to waive your rights.</p>
<p>Both my kids waived their rights to see their recommendations. My daughter’s two teachers never gave her a copy of her recommendation, while only one of my son’s teachers gave him his recommendation.</p>
<p>Quoting >>></p>
<p>Here’s the reality:
1 Actual GPA counts less than you think
2 SAT/ACT counts <em>way</em> more than you think
3 Coming from a rigorous program counts almost as much as your GPA
4 ECs really only matter if they are truly unique or you’re a recruited athlete
5 Essays and recs count for almost nothing (unless the rec is from someone deeply connected to the school).
6 You <em>can</em> blow an interview and they are key to determining “level of interest” for those schools that care about it.
7 Hooks pretty much trump everything. <<<</p>
<p>Good beginning with 1-3, but 4-5 are way off. Not sure what 6 meant, but it does not sound right. Hooks, obviously, are important. </p>
<p>During my tour at Brown, the admissions officer told us that the most important thing is the transcript, meaning both GPA AND course load. The second most important thing is the essays. A Tufts admissions officer kind of echoed this idea saying basically that GPA and test scores get you in the room where they decide who to admit, but essays, teacher recs, etc. get you into the school itself. An Ivy League admissions officer (can’t remember if it was Dartmouth or Yale, they all blend together) said that test scores count “more than you wish they did, but less than you think they do.” So it really depends on how you view “important.” The numbers are the prerequisites, but the essays, teacher recs, etc. are what makes an applicant stand out and are also necessary for acceptance into a highly selective university. Tons of kids apply with stellar test scores and GPAs, so they really aren’t going to get you into a school, but they can keep you out. Other universities have entirely different requirements.At most state schools, numbers are the only deciding factor.</p>
<p>Yeah. I figured that stats and gpa can only bring an applicant to a certain point and past a certain standard. Once you have exceeded those qualifications, essays, ECs, and teacher recs really make you stand out as an individual.</p>
<p>This seems to me as the most fair method possible anyway. Not much too groan over. It satisfies the often asked question as to how a certain student with seemingly perfect stats (2400 sat, 4.0, etc. dont make it into top universities). Well, clearly, they didn’t put enough effort into making themselves unique as an individual.</p>
<p>Still, It just makes you wonder about those anomalies who make it into stanford with abysmal SAT scores (I know this one girl who made it into stanford with approx. a 1700…) I guess it can really come down to how well you impact the adcom reading your application and how well you can make a case for yourself.</p>
<p>My future in the hands of seemingly so many arbitrary decisions and quick judgments. Makes for a gloomy attitude honestly…</p>
<p>They would like you to think the essay is really important, and in a perfect world, it would be.</p>
<p>But they simply are not going to base a decision on an essay that might not have even been written by the applicant.</p>
<p>Here is what the ivy’s didn’t tell you.
You need to hit the minimum threshold of SAT score (say 2100) before they even look at your transcript.
I’m not speaking about minorities or student athletes.
Furthermore, you can’t compare Ivy admissions to other top schools. I still say most top colleges (non-ivy or ivy-like) weighting is:
40% SAT
40% GPA and rigor
20% other</p>
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<p>They didn’t tell you because it isn’t true. Read the books by Michelle Hernandez. (citing actual evidence). </p>
<p>They basically calculate an Academic Index for you, which includes your test scores and your grades. </p>
<p>In her example at Dartmouth, there were 9 possible values for Academic Index. In those, your test scores counted twice as much as your grades. </p>
<p>They admit a certain percentage from each group above 5 I think. They admit a lot more 9s than 5s</p>
<p>In that post-academic-index review, they look at everything. Now they may reject you, but they look at everything. </p>
<p>@ClassicRockerDad
If SAT scores didn’t matter, you wouldn’t have kids retaking the SAT, etc to get above 2200 since they have ivy’s as a target. Heck, many believe you need to be above 2300 for ivy.
But you can believe whatever you want to believe.</p>
<p>I look at the statistics. For ivy, it is quite clear to me that you need to be above a certain statistical threshold for consideration. Once past the statistical threshold, then other factors come into play to whether you get accepted.</p>
<p>@TomRiversParent He didn’t say that it doesn’t matter. He said that they look at it holistically and give you an academic index number. I read A is for Admissions as well and there is an entire chapter dedicated to it. They look at academics and rate it, personal traits and rate it, and extracurriculars and rate it. Then they choose to admit of deny.</p>
<p>Also, I’m nt sure what this is stemming from, but minorities have to be academically competitive to get into ivy leagues. The 50-75% you see online isn’t solely comprised of white students. I have met several minority students you have been rejected with over 2100 on the SAT, so they for just get a free pass because they are minority.</p>
<p>annie,
the 2100 gets them in the door.
after that it depends. That is what I am saying.</p>