<p>We are just not getting any good advice from my daughter's counsellor about this. My daughter is a sophmore and we are planning for next year. Her situation is this - she wants to go to U of M for Education (music teacher) and is currently getting a 3.65 GPA (unweighted for the 5 academic, plus music) but knows she needs to pull it up to have a chance at MI. One option would be to take easier courses and take less APs. If she goes the easier route (no AP math or AP science)then I think she can pull it up to at least all A- s (counts as A's at MI), but if she does AP sciences and math then it's likely she will get B's in those subjects (just the way she's wired). If she doesn't do the AP versions, she would still take the subject, just easier options Concepts of Physics, Computer Science etc. She's working her tail off to get the grades she is - so it's not like she could work harder. If she keeps the harder classes she will end up with 5 APs, otherwise it will likely be 3.</p>
<p>I realize that most of the people on this forum are super-high achievers, but not everyone is capable of all As.</p>
<p>My d didn’t take any AP science or math. She took honors sciences and standard math (up to calculus). All of her teachers recommended to her that she not stretch for the harder math & science courses that she wasn’t interested in. Not only would she have gotten B’s or lower in those courses, but the time she would have had to invest in those courses to get the B’s would have taken away from the ones she was interested in. So grades in all subjects would have been at risk. </p>
<p>She ended high school with 4 AP classes (US History, Euro, English and Psych).</p>
<p>She didn’t apply to Michigan but had excellent results applying to selective private colleges (not the tippy top, but in the top 75 or so).</p>
<p>For some perspective, the average MIT student has taken 5 AP classes.</p>
<p>Some of your answer may also lie with how competitive your D’s HS is, how many APs are offered, what it takes for the GC to determine her schedule is most rigorous or just rigorous, etc.</p>
<p>Rigor is judged within the context of the school of origin. What is the profile of students from her school who are applying to highly competitive, non-LACs such as Michigan.</p>
<p>Michigan has a lot of high acheiving science and engineering applicants; Does the Michigan AddCom mix up the applications they read, or do they specialized: one person reads all the arts, one person reads all the engineering? If one person is reading apps from a mixed admissions pool, which includes lots of engineerings and science people, she would look light weight. On the other hand, if the music ed applications are all handled seperately, then she would be judged in comparision with other music ed applicants. </p>
<p>Does anyone know how UMich applications are handled?</p>
<p>I don’t think she needs AP math and science if her goal is music education. In her case, I think higher grades are more important then “the most rigorous” schedule.</p>
<p>When we visited ND, they said the previous year they had denied 600 #1 students. They said they would rather kids take harder classes and push themselves and perhaps get a slightly lower grade vs. easier classes and getting straight A’s.</p>
<p>One thing that makes it hard at her HS is that there is only 6 periods per day - same classes for the entire year. You also need a whole year of Gym. This makes it harder to get the prerequisits for AP classes - at our school you generally need the regular class before you can take the AP. There is also only two classes called ‘honors’ - English 9 and 10. But we are in a school that is highly desirable by the colleges (almost always in the list of top Michigan public schools). However, I’ve noticed that the kids don’t take a huge amount of APs. The school offers:</p>
<p>AP Art History
AP Envir Sci
AP Bio
AP Physics
AP Chem
AP Eng lang
AP Eng Lit
AP Calc
AP Stats
AP Computer Sci (may have to take that at other district school)
AP Gov
AP US hist
AP French
AP German
AP Spanish</p>
<p>She will definately have AP Engl Lang & Ap Engl Lit, AP Gov, AP German. Oops, that’s 4, not 3 like I stated earlier. I’m a little unclear about what types of courses universities consider ‘light’, I’m sure basketweaving would be, but since she’s going to be a music teacher hopefully choir isn’t one of them! Is any course that’s not AP considered lightweight in senior year? Right now she’s in something called Accelerated Math which is when you skip 6th grade math and skip ahead one year. </p>
<p>From this thread, it’s clear that there is no consensus. We are going on a tour of U of M next month and perhaps it’s best that we just ask? </p>
<p>I’m pretty sure getting into Mi State wouldn’t be a problem, and from talking to people who work in the field of education, the programs seem to have equally good reputations. But she thinks Michigan would be more prestigious and ‘cooler.’ I guess I have to support that.</p>
<p>ESPECIALLY for UMich, do not let her take the additional AP’s…it’s all about UMGPA and in her case, she already has AP’s that will fulfill the rigor box that UMich checks off…many, many students in my daughter’s class who had UMich on the top of their list did not know this and were not accepted because they achieved B+'s in AP courses…hurt their UM GPA’s</p>
<p>Edit: I would not say this about many other schools, but it has been shown time and time again at UMich…</p>
<p>I think you are trying to convince yourself and get reassurance. My S took some pretty hard classes and a fair share of AP’s. He got a lot of A and A-'s, but had a perennial B+ in accelerated/honors Math. He may have gotten A’s in the regular Math, but he also would have been bored AND he wouldn’t have been able to take accelerated or AP Sciences and REALLY would have been bored. </p>
<p>This being said, a lot of state and larger public universities do the whole math thing that crunches numbers first and foremost so there is a real incentive to watch GPA, class rank and test scores. Does the HS school weight grades? What will happen to class rank if she takes non-honors or AP? And do you have any private LAC’s on the list that not taking the AP would prove more harm than good.</p>
<p>Son didn’t get staight A’s. Life isn’t about A’s in this house, it’s about actual learning and development of potential. Some may not agree with me, but when my oldest was in public schools, I found it incredibly frustrating that there were all these parents who said how gifted and talented their kids were all through elementary school (demanding at PTA and school board meetings how their kids were more deserving than the average kid) were now pulling their kiids out of the accelerated curriculum in our public high school to protect their GPA. Kind of a mixed message if you ask me. And is why my two younger never went to public school.</p>
<p>I believe that the University of Michigan admits students to specific majors, so the applicants are likely to be compared with students in the same or similar fields.</p>
<p>At one time, Michigan had point values for admissions, based on standardized test scores (in fairly broad ranges), GPA’s, state and national awards, sports, legacy, etc. That specific system has been discarded in the wake of court rulings. However, if you can find the old point values (check the archives of the Detroit Free Press? contact tokenadult?), you should be able to see how much GPA was weighted vs. AP courses. That aspect of admissions probably has not changed much. Also, Michigan assigned points based on the strength of the high school. As I recall, no student attending high school in Michigan could receive the maximum number of points in that category (although my recollection could be faulty about the private schools). But if your daughter is in one of the top public schools in Michigan, she will get a boost from that, also–and probably it will be a larger boost than it would have been a few years ago, since there were a lot of complaints about “dissing” Michigan high schools.</p>
<p>I agree with Rodney. I’m also from Michigan and two of my sons went there as did about half their friends. If you were looking at private schools, LAC’s or Ivy League, I’d say stick to the AP classes. But if she’s looking to get into Michigan, stress the GPA and take the classes that will help her the most. Music teachers do not need AP Physics.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for all your good advice. I really appreciate it and my daughter will also. </p>
<p>I totally agree with you 3bm103 - music teachers don’t need AP Physics! The ONLY reason she would take it would be to get into a better college. </p>
<p>QuantMech - I thought that they still did that points system for admissions. I’m going to have to look into this some more. Where the heck do you find the details of the admissions process - the website if fairly vage? Perhaps they will tell us when we visit? I did read here at CC that they count all As as As regardless of whether it’s A-, A. </p>
<p>Modadunn - Our school does not rank, and I have no idea about weighting the grades. So far I haven’t seen that reflected for her advanced math or honors English. I’ll have to find out. In her case, she’s not bored at all - I’m more worried about her getting in over her head in needlessly difficult courses. If I were in her shoes I’d probably just keep doing what I was doing and go to State, but I’m proud of her and support her attempts for Michigan.</p>
<p>Not MI but friend’s son was denied VA Tech because his GPA was B to B+ range. Had IB classes, superb audition and interview, but the average GPA admitted as over 3.9. That is what they pointed to. Make sure the GPA is up for the state u’s which are much more numbers driven, while taking the AP’s that make sense.</p>
<p>I think when you have several tens of thousands (minimally) applying, you are going to have to crunch numbers… SAT/ACT. GPA. Class rank.</p>
<p>If you don’t class rank or weight grades, not sure how that works in huge schools. The theory at our school is that it forces colleges to look beyond the numbers to see what classes you took. At the public school. they don’t weight grades but do class rank. So all A’s will sit higher in the pecking order even if you took ALL honors and AP. Sort of unfair and definitely not right in terms of what the rankings are supposed to represent.</p>
They quit the strict point system when they lost the case for affirmative action. But that doesn’t mean they don’t still stress the same things. When they did do the point system, the GPA counted so much more than anything else, except being a minority or a scholarship athlete. I’m sure if you search, you can find the old point system and see what areas are important. If I recall, GPA counted for 20 points, whereas having a parent attend was maybe 4 points. A sibling was 1. </p>
<p>37% of last year’s class had a HS GPA of less than 3.75. Michigan also notes that the heaviest weight given in considering applicants is the rigor of the high school curriculum. Class rank is “considered.” Factors weighted between those two bookends are GPA, standardized test scores, essays and recommendations.</p>
<p>This seems to suggest that your daughter would be competive if she ends up with a 3.6 and the judgement of your guidance office that she took the “Most Demanding” curriculum, particularly if she scores in the mid to high 600s on the three sections of the SAT (or comparable ACT score).</p>
<p>However, I would ask if she really loves the more challenging math/science classes or is she taking them just to enhance her college resume? If she really doesn’t care that much about math or science maybe it makes more sense for her to take “Honors” instead of AP so she can use the extra time to focus on her passion (not for the anticipated better grade per se).</p>
When my d was faced with that possibility, her reaction was, “If a school will reject me, a humanities major, because I didn’t take AP Physics, that’s not a school that I’d want to go to anyway.”</p>
<p>Hudsonvalley51 - she likes math just fine, but dislikes science. But she’s not ‘into’ either of them (I think her desire is to be a HS teacher and be certified in both music and English) But it looks like she’s going to have to take AP Calc because what else is there? She did Geometry in 8th, Algebra 2 in 9th, and now she’s in FST (Functions, Stats and Trig), then next year she will do PreCalc/Discrete and in 12th she’s got a choice of AP Calc and AP Stats. This HS is smaller and doesn’t offer Honors courses per se - there is nothing called that. I’m not sure it would be a good idea for her to drop math altogether since MI wants to see 4 years of HS math. In terms of science perhaps she can do regular Physics in 11 and regular Chemistry in 12. She did Physical Science in 9 and is in Bio this year. </p>
<p>3bm103 - that’s right, I remember hearing that.</p>
<p>I don’t think it would be a good idea for her to drop math either. My only question was whether or not it had to be AP Math. Some schools do offer both Calculus (sometimes offered as a for-credit course through the local CC) and AP Calculus, the later OFTEN being a more demanding course. AP Stats is in some cases a better route to take for humanities kids who are not aiming for top tier schools.</p>