In our experience, the Cadet and Junior rankings are, for the most part, very similar within a given recruiting class. I think podium finishes at domestic and international Cadet events are definitely good feathers for any fencer to have in their cap.
In post #419, BrooklynRye notes that the jump from cadet to junior can be a big one…a friend of my daughter’s who was on Cadet national team feels that international Junior events can be even harder than domestic Div1 events.
That sounds right @BrooklynRye – the jump from Cadet to Junior is big and if a fencer isn’t pulling down the points in Junior, even if they are highly ranked in Cadet, then the recruiting coach is betting more on potential. Also agree with @SevenDad that the rankings in both divisions are usually similar. Almost all Cadet points in top ten are coming from Div1 and Junior anyway (in addition to international columns), so that makes sense. And yes, International Junior is a huge step up. I’ve not done a thorough analysis, but it seems like Americans are dominant in international Cadet, but not so much in the international Junior arena.
Many parents of young fencers often wonder when to go all in and when to call it quits. Any advice from the seasoned parents on this thread how to determine if your kid is ready to go the next level, or perhaps tone everything down and just do regional and school team. What would be the age, ?14?, freshman highschool?, when you would realize that fencing is just not for you? I’ve seen so many kids who attend all the NACs and major regional events year after year starting from middle school to junior in high school, but most of the time they finish in the bottom half, usually not passing beyond the first DE.
@noanswers - There are as many answers to your question as there are fencers. A prodigy is easy to identify and to cultivate. Not that there aren’t bumps in the road, and not that they are all successes, but in such cases a coach at least senses that he/she is dealing with someone exceptional. The average to run of the mill fencers, those always finishing in the bottom half with an occasional flash, represent the overwhelming majority of fencers. The remaining sliver are your World Team aspirants and members; those fencers with more than the average talent for whom the game quickly becomes Senior World Teams and the Olympics. Timing and circumstances, and perhaps a bit of luck will almost always determine the outcome for this group.
Rather, IMHO, the question you should ask, is “What is my fencer looking to get out of the sport?” The answer to this question may well tell you that it is not about success, but about enjoyment. Not about medals, but about character and learning. And, with all that, perhaps a berth at a stellar college who will never get the World Team member, but will be very happy with an average fencer who is bright, has good character, and will enhance that school’s community.
I tell new fencing parents that the economics and commitment to the sport is a like a snowball at the top of the hill. It will start rolling, gaining speed and roll over you before you know what happens. Judgments of pocketbook are very personal. That’s for parents to decide and to share as they deem fit with their child. But gauges of “worth” are more about what is deemed valuable. It is not always winning that makes up worth.
Great question, noanswers. And one I’ve mulled over not just in relation to my own kid, but also in the larger sense.
Unfortunately, I don’t think there is a hard and fast rule that can be applied across the board. It’s very much an individual decision.
A few years back, my daughter — who had stood on NAC/SYC podiums before — had her worst pool showing in a NAC ever. I think she may have even gone 0-6…thankfully, it was a youth event, so there was 100% advancement to DEs. From there, she proceeded to work her way through a few rounds of the bracket to make the 32 and earn national points.
We’ve talked about that event as a possible turning point for her as part of a “have you ever wanted to quit the sport” conversation. Speaking frankly, had she lost that first DE, I think that may have been the end for her…or at least time to scale back. At the time, I asked her what changed for her that day between pools and DEs…and she said something like “I didn’t want my day — and my fencing career — to end that way.” While she’s had ups and downs since, she’s stuck with the sport and will fence for a Div1 school in the fall.
I have seen kids take breaks from the sport, then return. In fact, I can think of more than one case where the family opted to keep the kid out of NACs most of a season (or more)…only to have the kid return to the circuit and start kicking butt again. Every kid/family is different.
To reply to your question with another question…what’s the harm in sticking with it, even if only to finish in the bottom half of the field? Most parents want their kids to be involved with something active — and if money and time is not an issue, and most importantly the kid still enjoys fencing and the whole traveling circus, what’s the harm? How is this any different from being a sub on a high school soccer team?
I took a look at some of the college rosters/results this week to see how a few of my daughter’s older acquaintances fared in various events. There are kids fencing for some very good schools (not Ivies, but selective colleges that most kids would love to attend, regardless of athletic inclination) who have never seen a NAC podium or maybe even a Junior points list. There are so many levels at which the sport can be contested…
But to try and give some more concrete advice, I think that freshman year is — generally speaking — too soon to make an evaluation of a kid’s future at the next level. Also…one bad season does not a fencing career make.
BrooklynRye and I were writing at the same time, but I second his reframing of the question to “What is my fencer looking to get out of the sport?” I personally am not a fan of viewing the sport solely as a means to an end.
I couldn’t agree more with BrooklynRye about the measure of worth in this sport. I’ve seen fencers brimming with talent but poor work ethic and no passion for the sport, and fencers with less athletic ability but who compete with such fire in the belly. The latter is a sight to behold and those athletes are easy to spot on the strip. The former may have great technique but they are always mechanical – there’s no light behind the eyes, no drive. I think to be successful, however you define that, you have to first love fencing. BrooklynRye cuts to the chase by asking what the fencer is trying to get out of the sport. It deserves an honest answer.
If success to you is college recruitment, you have to narrow it down to what program (Div1, Div3?). For Div1 you need to be showing promise (podium finishes, top 16) in Cadet, Juniors, and Div1. Many of these fencers have been on the circuit for several years and have steadily improved from their Y12 days. So high school is probably too late. Div3 is open to a wider swath of athletes. But even then, if you’re child does not love the sport, “fencing for college” becomes a lesson in doing something you don’t like for a long time just to have the mere possibility of recruitment. I’m hard pressed to see the sense or logic in that approach.
If success to is you striving for your personal best, making small strides along the way, taking to heart life lessons available in no classroom or kitchen table, then there is no age limit or time to stop.
If success to you is social camaraderie, exercise, and a somewhat geeky way to impress the opposite sex, again no age limit or time to stop here.
On a more serious note, I will add that the culture at some clubs is quite results oriented. NACs too can be a harsh place for the athlete out in the table of 128. Success may be defined differently by your child’s coach or clubmates. So it’s good to be aligned here OR have great clarity in your own ideas and good resolve when your coach yells at you for not winning the DE but you can’t stop smiling about the lovely counter parry riposte you pulled off and have been working on for months.
Thank you both for your replies, and certainly helps us to have a different perspective. My concern and reason for starting this question, not only would apply to fencing, but to the other sports as well, since many fencers, especially the ones who compete on the national circuit are dedicating a lot of time and energy in training for the events, foregoing a lot of their other extracurricular activities, ie band/music, school newspaper/government, Olympiads, etc. So if the kid likes to fence, but really doesn’t seem to have natural ability to truly excel, but still pursues it fervently without showing any meaningful results, then in the end it just becomes an EC not leading to recruitment. So it would be a very difficult decision by the parents and the athlete if and when they should tone down on the sport (by this I do not mean quit, but focusing just on competing locally and varsity events, so the student can still enjoy fencing) and really should spend more energy on other activities that they may ultimately excel. I think this really becomes a tough decision to make for families who have kids that are freshmen high school when their goal was ultimately ending up at an elite Div 1 school.
If an athlete “likes to fence” “pursues it fervently” but “shows no meaningful results” and the ultimate goal was “ending up at an elite Div 1 school” – as a parent I would have a sit down with my child and talk about the real world trade offs he/she is making to continue fencing at that commitment level. I actually don’t think this is a tough decision – if the goal will not be achieved, time to switch course seems logical. Fencing locally and in varsity events might be enough to satisfy his/her love of the sport without giving up so much of the other stuff.
High school is such an important developmental time. When you cut yourself off from so many other opportunities because you’re fencing all the time, you’re missing out on who you could become. There’s a T-shirt that sums this up perfectly; “I CAN’T. BECAUSE I HAVE FENCING” – this shirt is more for the benefit of others because the elite fencer lives “I can’t” everyday.
Our family has made countless sacrifices for fencing. But the person who has sacrificed the most is my daughter. I wonder if she even knows all that she has given up for her sport and if I have a moral/parental responsibility to exact some balance. These quandaries made worse by her intense love for the sport and her achievements in her weapon. I love her passion, I love the things she’s learned from fencing, and I think fencing is very cool – but sometimes I would just like to see her in the school play or writing some impassioned piece for the school’s newspaper. Or reading. What happened to that.
@noanswers and others: this is such an interesting/important topic and absolutely each family will have its perspective. We have not yet completed the college process but have been around long enough to see the range of participation and a variety of paths: from those who continue to go to NACs even though they never achieve the top half, to those who persevered and started moving up, to those who decided that the high school/local level was really and truly enough. I completely agree that this needs perspective: that this is a sport to do for other values (for the variety of reasons others have named), not solely for getting into college. But I would argue that is the case for any sport or any extracurricular activity: don’t do it as a means to an end, do it because it has value in and of itself.
For what its worth, my fencer does have other activities in addition to rigorous academics – it involves candle-burning at both ends and zero time for casual reading (alas) or video games/social media (yay). It very much depends on the child, the school, the interests, and the motivation.
If you do have fencing at your high school, that is a great opportunity, because those fencers get much more of the team experience. And remember that there are many colleges that do have fencing clubs or programs that are not DIv1 – with lots of very enthusiastic and engaged fencers, and this could be a good way to continue to fence through college. When my fencer expressed mild interest in one of these schools, the team fell all over themselves to convince him about what a fabulous place it is and how much they loved it (both the school and the fencing club). The university experience is something to think about equally: fencing at a high level continues to occupy a lot of the college students’ time, with less to explore other interests. This is of course not unique to fencing, it’s the case with high level sports in general, but it is something to bear in mind. College is, after all, for getting an education – and presumably not just in fencing! 
I know the focus here is always on “Elite Div 1 schools” (Ivies + a couple) and I completely get that. For a talented and lucky few with both top-notch academics and in the top 5-10 of their gender/weapon/recruiting year, it can be the golden ticket to bypass the sub-10% admit rate at these schools.
However… I think this board can actually do a disservice to the broader world of collegiate fencing with the Ivy-or-bust mentality. And I don’t mean to discredit the amazing accomplishments of some of these fencers that achieved that. But there are WAY more high school fencers NOT in the top 10 recruits than in the top 10. The more of these high school fencers (especially good ones!) that continue fencing in college, the better it is for the sport in general. We should encourage all high-school fencers to continue looking for collegiate options if they love fencing.
Even for a non-national points list fencer who loves to fence, there are great options. Non-points list A, B, and even some C fencers with Ivy-level academics but are looking for a different-than-Ivy collegiate experience will find a wealth of Div 1 options and be a highly-sought recruit (because the coaches of these school know the student is both a solid fencer AND a solid student). Some of these non-elite Div 1 schools have honors colleges that are full of students with Ivy-level stats (seriously, look at the average test scores at these honors colleges!), and are taking almost all honors courses with similar high-stats students, at a top-10 Div 1 fencing school, and getting a great team fencing experience.
Likewise, a non-points list A/B/C fencer will be at the TOP of the recruiting list of many amazing Div 3 schools – Brandeis, Stevens, Haverford, Vassar, and Johns Hopkins to name a few. These schools have great teams, great coaching, great support from their schools for their fencing programs (frankly much better than some less competitive Div 1 schools offer), and are competitive with any non top-10 Div 1 school. Many Div 3 schools will welcome a fencer of ANY rating with ANY NAC-level experience to their roster, especially when that recruit has strong academics too.
In Summary: There’s more to collegiate fencing than the six uber-selective schools, and there’s great educations to be had outside of that group. Don’t drop fencing if your student loves it just because you don’t think you’re going to make the “Likely Letter” category. A fencer can have a great collegiate academic experience, be surrounded by serious students, and get a great collegiate team experience (with great perks) at a large public with a great honors school, other top 50/top 100 private schools, or a top-notch Div 3 liberal arts college – it depends on the collegiate experience (academic and fencing) you’re looking for.
I think that Stencils makes a very important point. We all, the hosts of this site included, tend to get a bit carried away with the cache of elite schools/fencing programs. However, also as Stencils points out, these programs are ultimately available to very few. As a resource for parents and fencers with questions about recruitment and schools, we do ourselves a disservice to even imply that recruitment by and/or matriculation at a DV3 school or at a club or less competitive fencing program is somehow inferior to an Ivy or top big box fencing program/university. This is simply not the case. There are elite schools including MIT, Haverford, Johns Hopkins, and Brandeis, to name a few, that support their teams and compete with fun and enthusiasm. There are elite club teams at schools such as Northwestern, Cornell, Tufts, and Swarthmore, that do the same, also at extremely elite schools. As alternatives to the classic big box DV1s (Notred Dame, OSU, and PSU), there are fine club programs at schools ranging from UCSD and UVA to the University of Chicago. So I echo Stencil’s summary in that there is a wealth of schools for every student, for every fencer, at every level. The choice is to be happy and successful, not to show off a bumper sticker.
All in all, I think this thread has tried to do a good job catering to all levels of fencer. Sure the questions may lean toward the Ivy or large D1 schools, but if you don’t know about the “other” school teams, or the active club schools, then you just aren’t reading through the thread. My DD was not recruited (nor was she expecting to be), is not highly ranked, nor does she have an A/B/C rating, but the community here was extremely helpful in their advice.
At the end of the college search process, 2 of DD’s final 3 were schools offering her an opportunity to be a part of their varsity team. She ended up choosing a fencing team that may not strike fear into the hearts of other bigger/deeper teams, but DD really likes the school she is at, she is having a blast being able to continue fencing, and she loves her new (and extremely supportive) teammates.
Thank you to those starting and continuing this thread.
–S.F.
Thank you for a truly heartwarming post, Sahara. We, both hosts and so many contributors, try our best. Your feedbakc is very much appreciated.
@saharafrog: Thanks for chiming in and glad to hear that your DD is enjoying her college (and college fencing) experience so far. In the end, isn’t that what it’s all about?
When we started this reboot of the fencing recruitment thread just before the 2016 Summer Nationals, my role was primarily that of a compiler and editor. Now that my daughter (like yours) has made it through the process with some degree of success (based in part on the information/advice from this thread and its predecessors), I guess I can start to consider myself one of the “hosts” of thread…
So I just wanted to say that I really appreciated Stencils’ post #429 above, as well as BrooklynRye’s reply — and I second the sentiment that the last thing we’d want is to discourage/alienate any newcomers. The sport is small enough as it is.
I realize what I posted could be misinterpreted as saying the primary contributors of this thread are solely Ivy/elite focused and I know that’s not true. I’ve communicated with all of them individually in the past and have met some of them personally, and I know they all share a love of college fencing, so I apologize if it came off that way. Thanks to all of you that regularly contribute here, we found your guidance during my D’s recruiting process invaluable!
What I really want to make sure is that a non-elite HS fencer who stumbles across this thread just wanting to know if there’s an option to continue fencing in college manages to get past comments like “top 25 on the junior points list” and “multiple NAC podium finishes” and “International results” and doesn’t just think – “Wow, that’s not me – I guess collegiate fencing is pretty tough” and walk away from fencing even if they enjoy it.
Thanks @saharafrog for your input!
I rarely check in on this thread but just did and am pleased that it is active, accurate, interesting, and in very good hands with those who have grown into a leadership role. We all know who they are and on behalf of all fencers and fencer’s parents here, thank you so much for your valuable insights.
I’ll chime in on the discussion a couple pages back regarding the variability language in likely letters. Back when my son received his from Princeton (October 2008) the language was hardly reassuring, especially when compared with Harvard’s letters at that time. Unfortunately there wasn’t an athletic recruiting sub forum at that time so we had to just take it on faith that the LL would truly result in an RD acceptance, as thus was also in a period when H and P didn’t have early acceptance programs.
SHERPA: The true OG fencing parent of CC. Thanks for checking in!
With some of the Ivy (and other colleges with fencing teams) ED notification dates already passed and a few more over the next few days, I wonder if some of the the Class of 2018 LL holders will start to come out of the woodwork this week. I know that the person who has posted the annual “College Fencing Recruiting” thread over on Fencing.net intends to continue the tradition, so that should go live in the next few weeks.
For my daughter’s weapon, I’ve been tracking the top kids in her class for a while now and there are only a few questions marks left in that group of fencers…
The link to the aforementioned Fencing.net thread (note that the author/compiler of the annual database has not posted any info yet…but expects to within the week):
https://www.fencing.net/forums/threads/unverifiable-rumors-and-dubious-gossip-about-2018-collegiate-incoming-fencers.142053/
Hi All, So my son’s recruiting adventures have thankfully come to an end. I was an avid lurker before @SevenDad so kindly condensed the threads, and most of my information came from the CC forum - information, answers, and questions that I hadn’t even considered. I promised SevenDad that I would send in my wrap up. So here it goes…
One of the most helpful threads for me was the post listing timelines. Considering there are several factors that we (parents) have no control over, timing at least provided a framework of comfort. Here is the what and when as best as I can remember.
Summer of FRESHMAN yr:
-Fencing summer camp at the university where he eventually ended up.
SOPHOMORE Yr:
-Create new email for all college stuff with parental access (I made this mistake with his older sister. Too many emails!)
-Use this for College Board, NCAA, Naviance, all college pr, and FinAid. I flagged important items if he hadn’t opened.
-All NAC’s and some Int. Cadet events
-SAT Subject test #1
-Practice tests for both SAT & ACT. Figure out which one to concentrate on.
-Visit schools when convenient - if in town for NAC or near home
-Registered with NCAA, but it wasn’t really necessary that early
JUNIOR Yr:
FALL
-PSAT
-Created fencing resume, including Personal, Academic, Athletic, and Contact information
-Filled out on-line Athletic Forms for various schools (absolutely zero response - probably need scores first)
WINTER
-PSAT results - Study over Winter holiday
-Jan SAT exam
-lots of fencing! all NACs, all designated Euro Cadet events, one Jr World cup
SPRING
-Started emailing coaches directly - first rejection was very abrupt “I don’t need epee” and therefore very motivating
-Visited schools over Spring Break, later visited a few a second time if within easy distance
-If he knew someone already attending (sisters’ friends or other fencers) got inside info on classes, workload, & dorms
-First choice school gave academic and financial Pre-read
-Re-worked financial pre-read after filling out ‘demonstrated athletic recruitment’ paperwork
-High School sponsored SAT exam
SUMMER
-SAT Subject test #2
-Finish State required exams
-Verbal commitment
-Looked at application and thought about it, and thought about it, and thought about it
SENIOR Yr:
-One official visit - attended classes and never wanted to go to high school again
-Updated NCAA with transcripts
-Filled out Early Application
-seemingly long wait
-Likely Letter- not the most comforting language
-Sent in 1st grading period results
-seemingly long wait
-NAC and Jr World Cups
-Acceptance - Dec 14th - Go Lions!
-Breathe
Other notes:
good grades: started badly but had a good steady climb. Jr and Sr year in 4.0 range
good scores, math heavy, subject tests (w/foreign language) helped AI
top 5 in his weapon in his graduating class
inner city, test to enter, public school
According to Naviance, his scores and grades are on or above average compared to the other kids accepted from his high school. On the scattergrams there are two different groups, so I’m guessing half had hooks.
At the risk of too much info- FinAid at Ivy was better for us than Athletic or Academic scholarship elsewhere
So thank you again to all the regulars!!!
I’ll check in occasionally to help answer questions if I can!
Thanks chelsea465! One of my favorite aspects of your post #438 are the parental notes like “seemingly long wait” and “started badly…” 
FWIW, I also told both of my kids make a non-school associated email address with a name-related (as opposed to something more random/juvenile/non-sensical like dogfan2000@) address for their college-related correspondence. And to give me access to it. It certainly helped consolidate and keep track of correspondence.